The Ramseys are Cleared

[TexMex]

DNA which could have come from anywhere. Match it to a perp and we'll call it quits, deal?

Since when does a parent killing a child EVER make sense, Tex? And I'm not just saying that, either. Killing a child NEVER makes any sense to me. And the day it does, I will PRAY for death!

No sense at all, Dave. No way, no how. Kids are truly the innocent among us.

It's my hope that some day that DNA on this kid in three separate places will be matched and the guilty man jailed.

 

[LI_Mom]

I believe that to be far more appropriate, prudent and wise.

For sure. Especially when talking about people who are on the periphery of this tragic case.

It's so easy to let emotions get the best of you (in a general sense) & cross a line unintentionally.

These true crimes cases cover VERY emotional issues & it's no wonder passions can run so high.... in both directions.

 

[lilywhite]

Uh, not so much theory as idle speculation (that word again!). Sometimes i get this picture in my head:

JB: Mommy, I gotta tell you somethin'

Patsy: What, honey?

JB: Last night...

Patsy: WHAT?! You little liar! BAM! Dead.

Wow, this is actually my theory as well. Probably based on the family reactions when I revealed my own abuse at the age of 11. No one killed me, obviously, but things got pretty bad.

And I was still left under the care of the abuser for another 3 years, till I moved out of state, for a total of 5 years of abuse. It's amazing what a family will turn a blind eye to, and amazing how angry they can get when you try to poke them out of their little fantasy world.

 

[BBB167893]

Caution would be prudent.

I won't speak for LinasK, Wudge, but I'm spoiling for a good fight. This is a BLATANT attempt to bully us, and I won't have it, capice?

As for Dr. Beuf, let me put it this way: in order for me to believe that the results of the examination on the live body are legit, I have to believe that the results of the autopsy on the dead body are lies.

My post was from an article
By Marilyn Bardsley and Patrick Bellamy
at trutv crime library

Yeah, I know that, Tex. But it's word-for-word from the first Tracey crock, and I know that because I watched it when it first premiered here in America, when I was still pro-Ramsey. I've been around the block.

IMO, "sexual abuse specialists" tend to always find sexual abuse. If they don't thay have no job!

That is a very glib response, Tex, and you know it. Nice way of avoiding the beef of my post, which I went to A LOT of trouble to get for you. Maybe the implications are too horrible. No shame in that. I agree, actually. But I will not shut my mouth, eyes or ears.

A Medical Examiner has enough training to spot sex abuse in a child and this one saw nothing indicating chroic abuse.

He didn't even mention the areas the autopsy report talked about. Dr. Andrew Sirotnak was at that autopsy, and he and Dr. Krugman later authored a treatise on child sexual abuse with JB as the template.

 

[angelwngs]

But that's just it TexMex, they didn't "adore" her or dote on her, they used her. They felt they owned her, she was just property to them. Patsy used her to further her own pageant goals regardless of what JB would have wanted. She never would have let her quit. John saw JB as a minature woman to take as he pleased, especially since Patsy was unavailable to him sexually with her cancer. I think John was the killer in a sex game gone too far accidentally, or that Patsy walked in on them and accidentally bashed her head. The bed wetting is from being sexually abused. But maybe Patsy was that outraged enough to kill her. I know how my daughter can push my buttons, and I'm not a pageant diva mom.

I think that PR lived her entire life as if it was a performance in a play and that JBR just happened to be an additional actor in that play which was written, choreograph, and directed by PR. I think the reason JBR was not around to see PR's final curtain call, was because JBR 'grew a brain' and was beginning, not only to balk at PR's direction but JBR was beginning to grow into her own independence away from PR's manipulating, self-serving tactics.

I think performing to the public as PR had done all her life became increasingly difficult for her. I think internally, PR did falter when her performances were thrown out of balance. I think internally, she was as a pressure cooker, simmering and then boiling and then ready to explode.

I think it began with Beth's death, grew more impossible to balance with her cancer treatments and then came to a climax when PR realized that no matter how much she tried to force JBR, she was not going to be forever turned into a perfect little twin replica of her mother.

Imagine the multitude of things that we have no clue about which must have happened between JBR and PR which brought them to this climax.

We only know about a small few:

JBR's soiling and wetting-
The continuious 'reasons' for pediatric visits-
JBR's negative reaction to the twin doll, which PR wanted her to have, but which even this little six year old must have seen as the plastic version of what PR was trying to make her become-
The neighbor talking to JBR on the steps as JBR cried and told her that she didn't feel pretty-
The argument over wearing a certain color top to the party that evening-

I think on Dec. 25th, PR finally realized that the perfect little clone of herself was lost to her forever.

As sick as it makes me to say it, I think she destroyed the imperfect creation that JBR had become, as easily as she could have destroyed one of her own "not quite right" oil canvas paintings which no longer reflected the image she wanted it to portray.

 

[BBB167893]

This may be true but Wudge threatening LinaSK was out of line, IMO.

Yes, it was. but it's the kind of thing we've come to expect.

No sense at all, Dave. No way, no how. Kids are truly the innocent among us.

Then we understand each other.

It's my hope that some day that DNA on this kid in three separate places will be matched and the guilty man jailed.

I wouldn't mind that myself. I just don't find the DA credible, is all.

Wow, this is actually my theory as well. Probably based on the family reactions when I revealed my own abuse at the age of 11. No one killed me, obviously, but things got pretty bad.

I figured. I was lucky: I was never molested, but I've read enough first-hand accounts to get and idea. not only that, but every now and then, I run into someone who asserts that if JB were being molested, she would have told someone. Obviously, these people have never worked as sex crime prosecutors or rape-crisis therapists, because it's hard enough to get GROWN women to admit to this stuff.

One other thing I'll say: As I told MrsMush, you don't have to think John molested her to think it happened. My brother I know doesn't. It's the attitudes of the Ramseys toward the subject that leans me that way. Their attitude is, in my opinion, disturbing to say the least if not less.

 

[reefshadow]

Reefshadow,

Those are some good points, in fact those are the only posts I've read that do a credible job of putting forth reasons why it might NOT have been one of the parents.

I relooked at the autopsy photos and the neck ligatures were pretty gruesome. But if as everyone assumes the ligatures came after the head injury and not before it still looks like staging to me, not a ritual attack, which I still believe a ritualized sex attacker would have abducted her...not done all this quietly in the house.

I'm no MD but it seems to me that if you shoved a 6 year old child who fell and hit her head on a hard bathroom surface, it could easily cause that severe of a head injury.

I've never felt Burke had anything to do with it. He was NINE. He isn't legally capable of 'murder' even if he pushed his sister on purpose. Lionel Tate was convicted of murder at 11 because his victim suffered a sustained, purposeful beating over many minutes. There is absolutely no way a 9 year old with no history of violence would have been put in a juvenile facility until he was 21 for what appears to be an accident, and I think there is no way a 9 year old could have done any staging, nor do I believe his parents staged the scene to cover up for him. NINE. Not 12 or 14 or 16.

You said- "I relooked at the autopsy photos and the neck ligatures were pretty gruesome. But if as everyone assumes the ligatures came after the head injury and not before it still looks like staging to me, not a ritual attack, which I still believe a ritualized sex attacker would have abducted her...not done all this quietly in the house."

It is possible it was staging and the crime was committed by family, but if so I don't believe for 1 nanosecond that the perp didn't know she was alive during the garroting. She was breathing often and deeply to produces those hemorrhages.

You said- "But if as everyone assumes the ligatures came after the head injury and not before"

Not everyone assumes that. There are medical professionals who believe the garroting came first. If that was the case this whole murder *had* to have been premeditated (by an intruder or parent), since the garrote took time to construct. Personally I believe the head wound occurred first and the garroting very shortly afterward, and both were done with extreme violence.

You said- "I'm no MD but it seems to me that if you shoved a 6 year old child who fell and hit her head on a hard bathroom surface, it could easily cause that severe of a head injury."

I don't see it. The location of the point of force that caused her fracture is near the *top* of her head. The most likely explanation for this is blunt force trauma with a hand held object. The only possible way I see this damage caused by the corner of a counter or tub is if she was picked up and the top of her head used like a battering ram. I'm not saying that this type of damage is not possible from a fall or shove. Just that the location of the initial impact is very unlikely to have been caused by the kind of fall you describe.

 

[TexMex]

Yeah, I know that, Tex. But it's word-for-word from the first Tracey crock, and I know that because I watched it when it first premiered here in America, when I was still pro-Ramsey. I've been around the block.



That is a very glib response, Tex, and you know it. Nice way of avoiding the beef of my post, which I went to A LOT of trouble to get for you. Maybe the implications are too horrible. No shame in that. I agree, actually. But I will not shut my mouth, eyes or ears.


He didn't even mention the areas the autopsy report talked about. Dr. Andrew Sirotnak was at that autopsy, and he and Dr. Krugman later authored a treatise on child sexual abuse with JB as the template.

I guess I don't know what "the first Tracey crock" is, Dave. But I'm all ears...


I do appreciate the link but I don't think this child had been abused, JMO. I think if JonBenet had reported any abuse by her Dad, Miss Patsy would have killed John, not JonBenet.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

That's probably why they wanted him in the first place, Wudge. But don't forget, it was Hunter who ultimately had the final word on whether or not to file charges. Don't forget one VITALLY important thing here: under Colorado law, you have to decide who to charge with what. That's not just a legal nicety, either. You HAVE to decide who did what specifically. They could never do that in this case. That's why they were never charged, Wudge, and that's NOT just my opinion. In cases like this, you get convictions by jailing the suspects and seeing which one will sell the other one out first. Ask Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nusbaum if you don't believe me. Or ask the former federal prosecutor who said the same thing on MSNBC (Not related to this case, btw). The cops WANTED to do that. Hunter, mr Great Society himself, shot it down. Too bad. That's why they were never charged, and I'm willing to state that as fact any time. How's THAT?

I really believe you are misguided on a D.A.'s ability to criminally indict someone. A prosecutor (or D.A.) cannot do that on their own.

There are two vehicles available to most prosecutors; those options are a Grand Jury (declining in use by states) or a preliminary hearing. If a prosecutor opts for a preliminary hearing, then a Judge will decide if the evidence supports probable cause, which is required before charges can be brought. If a prosecutor opts for a Grand Jury, they present evidence to a jury in the hope that the jury will issue an indictment or indictments -- Grand Juries can also go off on their own, investigate alleged crimes and issue presentments.

If after a Grand Jury issued an indictment or indictments, the prosecutor were to reassess the evidence they presented to the Grand Jury and came to the conclusion (bigger light bulb goes off in their head) that they could not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, then they could drop the charges. But that simply means that they should never have brought their case before a Judge or a Grand Jury in the first place.

By the way, I have never heard of a prosecutor who got an indictment, reassessed the exact same evidence and then dropped the charges.

Net, after Hunter agreed to let Kane present the evidence (go forward) to the Grand Jury, Hunter was no longer the gate.

 

[angelwngs]

Wow, this is actually my theory as well. Probably based on the family reactions when I revealed my own abuse at the age of 11. No one killed me, obviously, but things got pretty bad.

And I was still left under the care of the abuser for another 3 years, till I moved out of state, for a total of 5 years of abuse. It's amazing what a family will turn a blind eye to, and amazing how angry they can get when you try to poke them out of their little fantasy world.

Bless you, lilywhite. I have my own skeletons of abuse in my closet. Thank God my wonderful husband help me deadbolt that closet door.

 

[lilywhite]

Bless you, lilywhite. I have my own skeletons of abuse in my closet. Thank God my wonderful husband help me deadbolt that closet door.

A good husband goes a long way, that's for sure. I was lucky enough to get one of those. My therapist says it wasn't luck; it was instinctively seeking out a situation that would mean my kids were safe. But I still think there was some luck involved.

 

[reefshadow]

Thoughtful post. You might consider that the garrote was placed around her neck in order to hide previous strangle marks made that evening.
JMO

I do believe she may have been strangled at the very beginning of her attack. The abrasions on her neck are well developed (indicating some time had passed), especially the large one just to the left of the anterior midline. I don't believe this attack killed her though, or even came close- there simply are not enough abrasions or fingerprint contusions.

It is entirely possible if the parent(s) were the perp that the garrote was constructed just for the purpose you state, but I still believe very firmly that she was alive during the ligature strangulation, it was obvious she was still alive, and whoever did it was still quite angry. JB's hair trapped in the garrote, the very deep furrow it caused and the petechial hemorrhages speak of an application and use of the ligature that was swift and done with no hesitation. Not exactly the actions of a hesitant, grieving, remorseful parent- maybe a furious murderous one.

This is of course JMO

 

[BBB167893]

I guess I don't know what "the first Tracey crock" is, Dave. But I'm all ears...

Wow. Okay, what I'm referring to is the first documentary that Michael Tracey, a University of CO Boulder professor (and friend of Ward Churchill, whatever that does for you) absolutely enamored with Patsy made for public consumption. It aired on A&E in October of 1998. It has been roundly criticized, not only for the outright distortions of fact in it, but for the great mass of information that was not included. I suppose it's indicative of today's media: you can fill volumes with what you DON'T read in a newspaper.

Our host Tricia can explain it a lot better than I can.

I do appreciate the link but I don't think this child had been abused, JMO. I think if JonBenet had reported any abuse by her Dad, Miss Patsy would have killed John, not JonBenet.

Well, you might think that, but sadly, Tex, most mothers of abused children tend to blame the victim. Don't take my word for that, either. Many books have been written on this subject, and just about all of them say that, with the examples to prove it. LinasK I'm sure would like to weigh in on this.

By the way, I have never heard of a prosecutor who got an indictment, reassessed the exact same evidence and then dropped the charges.

Well, there are a LOT of aspects of this case I'd never heard of before, Wudge. But to hear Henry Lee tell it, he advised Hunter not to file charges. And he was only one of several people. Whatever that does for you.

Not only that, but Hunter had done exactly that before. The "alleged" kiiler of Robert Redford's daughter's boyfriend (damned if I can remember his name). Hunter called a grand jury, only to let him go and seal the records. Not my fault if you didn't know, but I'm glad I could help.

If after a Grand Jury issued an indictment or indictments, the prosecutor were to reassess the evidence they presented to the Grand Jury and came to the conclusion (bigger light bulb goes off in their head) that they could not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, then they could drop the charges. But that simply means that they should never have brought their case before a Judge or a Grand Jury in the first place.

They didn't want one, to hear certain acounts tell it. They were pretty much pressured into it by the Gov. in the wake of the Thomas resignation.

 

[Wudge]

I won't speak for LinasK, Wudge, but I'm spoiling for a good fight. This is a BLATANT attempt to bully us, and I won't have it, capice?

As for Dr. Beuf, let me put it this way: in order for me to believe that the results of the examination on the live body are legit, I have to believe that the results of the autopsy on the dead body are lies.

My post was directed to Linask, not you. Moreover, I had a similar discussion years ago in this same forum. But at that time it was a forum concern as regards being prudent, not an individual concern. At that time, it was said that the forum operates under different standards. I have no reason to believe anything has changed, and frankly, for most posters, I would not have said anything.

However, I have posted elsewhere with Linask over the years, and because I thought their post seemed out of character, I posted to them to make sure they knew what they were doing. No harm. No foul.

As regards possible defamation or libel, you can extend yourself as far as you wish. I would say absolutely nothing. I have no long-term posting relationship with you.

As for you saying "I won't have it, capice". You should have ended when you said you would not speak for Linask. No harm. No foul.

 

[LinasK]

I figured. I was lucky: I was never molested, but I've read enough first-hand accounts to get and idea. not only that, but every now and then, I run into someone who asserts that if JB were being molested, she would have told someone. Obviously, these people have never worked as sex crime prosecutors or rape-crisis therapists, because it's hard enough to get GROWN women to admit to this stuff.

You got it SuperDave! Even when we do tell, it's not often we are believed, so we get re-victimized all over again.

 

[angelwngs]

A good husband goes a long way, that's for sure. I was lucky enough to get one of those. My therapist says it wasn't luck; it was instinctively seeking out a situation that would mean my kids were safe. But I still think there was some luck involved.

Personally, I think there was some... God involved...in both of our marriages!

Feel free to PM me anytime... :blowkiss:

 

[LinasK]

I think that PR lived her entire life as if it was a performance in a play and that JBR just happened to be an additional actor in that play which was written, choreograph, and directed by PR. I think the reason JBR was not around to see PR's final curtain call, was because JBR 'grew a brain' and was beginning, not only to balk at PR's direction but JBR was beginning to grow into her own independence away from PR's manipulating, self-serving tactics.

I think performing to the public as PR had done all her life became increasingly difficult for her. I think internally, PR did falter when her performances were thrown out of balance. I think internally, she was as a pressure cooker, simmering and then boiling and then ready to explode.

I think it began with Beth's death, grew more impossible to balance with her cancer treatments and then came to a climax when PR realized that no matter how much she tried to force JBR, she was not going to be forever turned into a perfect little twin replica of her mother.

Imagine the multitude of things that we have no clue about which must have happened between JBR and PR which brought them to this climax.

We only know about a small few:

JBR's soiling and wetting-
The continuious 'reasons' for pediatric visits-
JBR's negative reaction to the twin doll, which PR wanted her to have, but which even this little six year old must have seen as the plastic version of what PR was trying to make her become-
The neighbor talking to JBR on the steps as JBR cried and told her that she didn't feel pretty-
The argument over wearing a certain color top to the party that evening-

I think on Dec. 25th, PR finally realized that the perfect little clone of herself was lost to her forever.

As sick as it makes me to say it, I think she destroyed the imperfect creation that JBR had become, as easily as she could have destroyed one of her own "not quite right" oil canvas paintings which no longer reflected the image she wanted it to portray.

This is an excellent theory angel. It fits in with Patsy being a Southern Belle, who must be in perfect control of everything.

 

[LinasK]

I do appreciate the link but I don't think this child had been abused, JMO. I think if JonBenet had reported any abuse by her Dad, Miss Patsy would have killed John, not JonBenet.

Patsy might have walked in on them, aimed for John, but ended up severly injuring JB by mistake, then feeling they had to finish her off rather than face the negative PR that would have resulted from calling 911 or taking her to an emergency room and admitting it was all a mistake/ that any sexual abuse took place.

 

[LinasK]

A good husband goes a long way, that's for sure. I was lucky enough to get one of those. My therapist says it wasn't luck; it was instinctively seeking out a situation that would mean my kids were safe. But I still think there was some luck involved.

Thank God my husband immediately believed me and took steps to protect me from my uncle for the remainder of my uncle's life!

 

[LinasK]

Well, you might think that, but sadly, Tex, most mothers of abused children tend to blame the victim. Don't take my word for that, either. Many books have been written on this subject, and just about all of them say that, with the examples to prove it. LinasK I'm sure would like to weigh in on this.

Yup! My own mother chose to believe her brother would not do such a thing, rather than believe me. She believed me for about 30 secs or less when I first told her, then I saw this curtain come down over her eyes.