The ransom: intended to match JR's bonus?

[Roy23]

Tell me about it. To me, it's a question of credibility, but that probably doesn't help, either.

We actually agree. I think it is about credibility too. We just differ in what and who we find credible. I have found some bits and pieces of GJ testimony and realize that the science and facts seem to have changed a lot. Some things, too, are unanswered questions. And I also admit from the hard hitters that the prosecution brought, I am surprised that a GJ would not have issued an indictment. It wasn't for lack of trying.

I have also decided that Patsy did not do this in my opinion. If it was a Ramsey, it had to be John. But I will keep reading and studying and maybe I will change my stance again.

 

[DeeDee249]

Wha? You forgot poor Cyril? What did HE say? Besides these are all opinions, not facts

If JBR was alive when strangled and when sexually injured, then she could have witnessed it. THIS is logic, reason. Not a high-handed claim stated as fact. Not third party opinion of armchair experts.

Holdon, though you and I couldn't be further apart on many aspects of this case, this does have some merit, IMHO.
I have always felt that the scream heard by neighbor Melanie Stanton could very well have been JB (and not Patsy), in reaction to the sexual assault, which was mentioned as having been extremely painful if she was awake. My take on this has the head bash following as a knee-jerk reaction to shut her up, not to kill her. (but it did). This is not my only theory- but it is the JDI/JARDI/BDI instead of PDI.
The pressure of the garrote on the vagus nerve could have rendered her unconscious and caused cardiac arrest even without the head bash. So I am not exclusively wed to the idea of the head bash coming first. They are two different theories with very different circumstances.
To me, the head bash coming first is a scene where it is accidental, with JB rendered instantly unconscious and even comatose, followed by a staged strangulation, done to provide a visible cause of death.
The sexual assault, scream, then head bash scene is much more sinister- but no less RDI to me. In involves a deliberate sexual assault of some kind (not necessarily with the paintbrush at first), then a head bash to silence her screaming.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

She had a mixture of her DNA and a foreign male DNA. At the time, only PCR testing could be used to grow the DNA to try and separate it from each other. As usual, the BPD sat on this DNA. They were absolutely crucified by their own witnesses, including Dr. Lee. From what I understand, the DNA was ultimately a match to all the others. But obviously, the DA doesn't mention fingernail DNA anymore. I don't know why.

I believe from my reading that JBR suffered an extremely violent death, with the head injury being the final death blow. I think she fought as best she could and that is the only reason four spots of matching foreign male DNA is discovered. I realize that Lacy only mentions three, but I believe it is more. At the time of the GJ, the DA was even arguing the DNA in the panties and under the fingernails. That has subsequently been determined hogwash.

It doesn't matter if the headblow is resolved to come first or last. RDI would simply force their theory to fit the new information. For example, it was noted that PR misspelled advise in both her right and left exemplars, while the RN author spelled it correctly. Within a matter of seconds, RDI forced their theory to fit this information by adding 'disguised spelling' next to 'disguised handwriting' as PR's sneaky attributes even though nobody even noticed the spelling issue for years.

New stranger DNA? Its transferred there innocently. Can't disprove that.
Can't find cord or tape? Lets accuse someone of removing it. Can't disprove that.
Handwriting doesn't match? Accuse PR of disguising it. Can't disprove that.
Spelling doesn't match? Accuse PR of disguising that too. Can't disprove that.
Secret Service says PR didn't write the note? Heck, RDI has Top Secret clearance and knows what everybody does there. He worked in the mailroom?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon, though you and I couldn't be further apart on many aspects of this case, this does have some merit, IMHO.
I have always felt that the scream heard by neighbor Melanie Stanton could very well have been JB (and not Patsy), in reaction to the sexual assault, which was mentioned as having been extremely painful if she was awake. My take on this has the head bash following as a knee-jerk reaction to shut her up, not to kill her. (but it did). This is not my only theory- but it is the JDI/JARDI/BDI instead of PDI.
The pressure of the garrote on the vagus nerve could have rendered her unconscious and caused cardiac arrest even without the head bash. So I am not exclusively wed to the idea of the head bash coming first. They are two different theories with very different circumstances.
To me, the head bash coming first is a scene where it is accidental, with JB rendered instantly unconscious and even comatose, followed by a staged strangulation, done to provide a visible cause of death.
The sexual assault, scream, then head bash scene is much more sinister- but no less RDI to me. In involves a deliberate sexual assault of some kind (not necessarily with the paintbrush at first), then a head bash to silence her screaming.

This requires the application of a sinister personality on at least one R. This personality does not manifest itself before or after the murder. A modern day Jekyll and Hyde is what you suppose.

That makes SD theory more plausible, as far as RDI goes. I am surprised that RDI hasn't proven the headblow came first. Its an important aspect of RDI rage accident/coverup prior abuse theory. Experts seem divided on that one.

 

[BBB167893]

We actually agree. I think it is about credibility too. We just differ in what and who we find credible.

Thus the problem!

I have found some bits and pieces of GJ testimony and realize that the science and facts seem to have changed a lot. Some things, too, are unanswered questions. And I also admit from the hard hitters that the prosecution brought, I am surprised that a GJ would not have issued an indictment. It wasn't for lack of trying.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that for now.

I have also decided that Patsy did not do this in my opinion. If it was a Ramsey, it had to be John. But I will keep reading and studying and maybe I will change my stance again.

Godspeed.

 

[BBB167893]

Just to clear a few things up:

Handwriting doesn't match? Accuse PR of disguising it. Can't disprove that.

To be fair, the writing was pegged as being disguised from the beginning, before they tried to match it to anyone.

Secret Service says PR didn't write the note? Heck, RDI has Top Secret clearance and knows what everybody does there. He worked in the mailroom?

It's not that RDI has Top Secret clearance. A fellow government document examiner who knows him told us this.

I am surprised that RDI hasn't proven the headblow came first. Its an important aspect of RDI rage accident/coverup prior abuse theory. Experts seem divided on that one.

For all intents and purposes, HOTYH, it has been proven. The experts are not as divided as you make out. It's more like 80/20. And most of the ones who say it came last are the same armchair experts you keep railing against.
Now isn't that odd?

 

[Ravyn]

Ravyn,

You make a great point. JBR did have her own DNA under her fingernails. There was much evidence of her putting up a struggle.

Trying to make sense here...Now we know that the coroner didn't take the right measures is collecting the DNA how can we say it wasn't some in the morgue already from a dead male since Meyer really didn't take is job seriously...But still I have to agree with SD and other Poster's here there is no signs of a struggle..And what Ames descibed is true.....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just to clear a few things up:



To be fair, the writing was pegged as being disguised from the beginning, before they tried to match it to anyone.

Fact: PR has been accused of not only disguising her own handwriting but disguising her spelling too. Fact: It is necessary for RDI to accuse PR of this otherwise RDI dies. Fact: There is no proof she disguised either her handwriting or her spelling.

Facts rock.

It's not that RDI has Top Secret clearance. A fellow government document examiner who knows him told us this.

Why don't you share with us how you figured Richard Dusak was not qualified to make any document examination statements on behalf of the US Secret Service.

For all intents and purposes, HOTYH, it has been proven. The experts are not as divided as you make out. It's more like 80/20. And most of the ones who say it came last are the same armchair experts you keep railing against.

Its an important thing for RDI accident/rage prior assault coverup theory. Please provide the proof, SD. I would love to hear it.

Now isn't that odd?

RDI should be termed the Gumby and Pokey investigation. GAPDI. Know what I mean? Let me explain:

JR is bent into a child sexual abuser, even though we don't factually know that he ever did such a thing to anybody. This is very bad.

PR is bent into a vicious ransom note writer and crime scene stager, even though we don't factually know she ever did anything even remotely so vicious to anybody. This is bad also.

Its the Gumby and Pokey investigation because most RDI are not supposing 'what if' RDI, then how could it be. Instead most RDI are of the belief JR and/or PR murdered or accidentally killed their daughter as a given. Then, the evidence and PR/JR personality are simply bent as needed to suit.

 

[DeeDee249]

This requires the application of a sinister personality on at least one R. This personality does not manifest itself before or after the murder. A modern day Jekyll and Hyde is what you suppose.

That makes SD theory more plausible, as far as RDI goes. I am surprised that RDI hasn't proven the headblow came first. Its an important aspect of RDI rage accident/coverup prior abuse theory. Experts seem divided on that one.

The sinister personality needn't be the parents. It could be JAR. My daughter graduated college in 1997. While she didn't attend there, she had many friends who did. Some knew who JAR was. When this case hit the news that Christmas season, they were all home on Christmas break. The FIRST person who popped up as far as a perp (among the kids attending the University in Boulder) was JAR.
However, we can't discount Patsy as having the potential for explosive rage. She was known by people to exhibit sudden and explosive temper tantrums.

 

[Roy23]

Trying to make sense here...Now we know that the coroner didn't take the right measures is collecting the DNA how can we say it wasn't some in the morgue already from a dead male since Meyer really didn't take is job seriously...But still I have to agree with SD and other Poster's here there is no signs of a struggle..And what Ames descibed is true.....

Well. Many disagree with you and many also agree with you. What I think I understand is that of the markers that they could identify, it matched the DNA in the panties. The problem is how many markers. It could be like the OJ case where the odds were changed from 1 in 10 million to 1 in 3 million. Or it could be from 1 in 3 million to 1 in 8. That is what we don't know.

 

[Ravyn]

Well. Many disagree with you and many also agree with you. What I think I understand is that of the markers that they could identify, it matched the DNA in the panties. The problem is how many markers. It could be like the OJ case where the odds were changed from 1 in 10 million to 1 in 3 million. Or it could be from 1 in 3 million to 1 in 8. That is what we don't know.

Now I have read where some said JonBenet's fingernails DNA was degraded...But if there is a chance that it's match anyone then that is what I want....But I would also have to think that if JonBenet struggled against being strangle then how would the DNA would be consider degrading...

 

[madeleine]

The thing is,if the DNA under her fingernails would match the one in the panties and on the longjohns and this would be a FACT I guess this would lean deffo towards IDI.But I've seen so many versions of this story that I dunno what to believe anyway.

 

[madeleine]

Unknown male dna in the panties and on the longjohns could mean lots of things....contamination,transfer,R having an accomplice who helped them in the cover up.....


BUT if the DNA under her fingernails would match the other dna found then we have a problem......

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi Madeleine.


ya that's a stumper, for the same dna to appear in the sample fingernail clippings, the contact would have to be direct, if the stranger dna was on an object, say even a hand towel as the source, how would it get under the fingernails?

 

[BBB167893]

Fact: PR has been accused of not only disguising her own handwriting but disguising her spelling too. Fact: It is necessary for RDI to accuse PR of this otherwise RDI dies. Fact: There is no proof she disguised either her handwriting or her spelling.

First of all, I realize it's one thing for us here at WS to think she disguised something-or-other. It's another thing for someone who is an authority on the subject to say it. You should keep that in mind.

Facts rock.

Don't they, though? And I've got 200+ pages worth.

Why don't you share with us how you figured Richard Dusak was not qualified to make any document examination statements on behalf of the US Secret Service.

Don't put words in my mouth, HOTYH. I don't KNOW what his exact qualifications are. What I DO know is what the INS man, Epstein, said about him, and that is (and keep in mind this is as close to an exact quote as I'm aware of): he runs a computer database and it's not certain how much actual comparison work he does. Not only that, but you've no doubt read the bit from PMPT I keep posting about how his analysis was likely undertaken without full understanding?

If you want to do the dance, that's fine by me. But do it honestly.

Its an important thing for RDI accident/rage prior assault coverup theory.

That it is.

Please provide the proof, SD. I would love to hear it.

Somehow I doubt you would. But that's okay by me, because I'll do it anyway. I already mentioned Drs. Spitz, Henry, Wright and Lee, of course. "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled," said Wright in an interview for the Rocky Mountain News. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away." He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

But let's take a look at the physical aspects. The autopsy report describes three different areas of bleeding: the scalp hemorrhage, the subdural hematoma, and a subarachnoid hemorrhage. What's more, the sulci and the gyri were flattened against the skull. That means JonBenet's brain swelled so much it was pressed against the inside of her skull. That takes time. What's more, according to Denver neurologist Kerry Brega, it's fairly common for head wounds not to bleed. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said.

(Keep in mind that these are excerpts from the book and that I'm writing for an audience of laypeople.)

RDI should be termed the Gumby and Pokey investigation. GAPDI. Know what I mean? Let me explain:

I can't wait.

JR is bent into a child sexual abuser, even though we don't factually know that he ever did such a thing to anybody. This is very bad.

Actually, HOTYH, speaking for myself, I've tried to be careful in that regard. I believe strongly that JB was subjected to prolonged sexual abuse, but I'm NOT sure by whom. It's JR's attitude towards the subject (among other things) that make me lean that way.

PR is bent into a vicious ransom note writer and crime scene stager, even though we don't factually know she ever did anything even remotely so vicious to anybody. This is bad also.

I'm not sure "vicious" is the word I'd use. But if I were you, I'd read up on the Jeffrey MacDonald case vis-a-vis this one.

Its the Gumby and Pokey investigation because most RDI are not supposing 'what if' RDI, then how could it be.

I've been known to.

Instead most RDI are of the belief JR and/or PR murdered or accidentally killed their daughter as a given. Then, the evidence and PR/JR personality are simply bent as needed to suit.

It's just as well for both of us that I have nothing to say.

 

[madeleine]

Hi Madeleine.


ya that's a stumper, for the same dna to appear in the sample fingernail clippings, the contact would have to be direct, if the stranger dna was on an object, say even a hand towel as the source, how would it get under the fingernails?

There wouldn't be an innocent explanation for this one,I agree.But since Lacy didn't even mention it I guess it's either too degraded to stand up in court or it doesn't even match.But I wish I knew the truth about it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Unknown male dna in the panties and on the longjohns could mean lots of things....contamination,transfer,R having an accomplice who helped them in the cover up.....


BUT if the DNA under her fingernails would match the other dna found then we have a problem......

We have a problem.

According to recent CNN and CBS news reports, IT DOES!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

First of all, I realize it's one thing for us here at WS to think she disguised something-or-other. It's another thing for someone who is an authority on the subject to say it. You should keep that in mind.



Don't they, though? And I've got 200+ pages worth.



Don't put words in my mouth, HOTYH. I don't KNOW what his exact qualifications are. What I DO know is what the INS man, Epstein, said about him, and that is (and keep in mind this is as close to an exact quote as I'm aware of): he runs a computer database and it's not certain how much actual comparison work he does. Not only that, but you've no doubt read the bit from PMPT I keep posting about how his analysis was likely undertaken without full understanding?

If you want to do the dance, that's fine by me. But do it honestly.



That it is.



Somehow I doubt you would. But that's okay by me, because I'll do it anyway. I already mentioned Drs. Spitz, Henry, Wright and Lee, of course. "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled," said Wright in an interview for the Rocky Mountain News. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away." He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

But let's take a look at the physical aspects. The autopsy report describes three different areas of bleeding: the scalp hemorrhage, the subdural hematoma, and a subarachnoid hemorrhage. What's more, the sulci and the gyri were flattened against the skull. That means JonBenet's brain swelled so much it was pressed against the inside of her skull. That takes time. What's more, according to Denver neurologist Kerry Brega, it's fairly common for head wounds not to bleed. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said.

(Keep in mind that these are excerpts from the book and that I'm writing for an audience of laypeople.)



I can't wait.



Actually, HOTYH, speaking for myself, I've tried to be careful in that regard. I believe strongly that JB was subjected to prolonged sexual abuse, but I'm NOT sure by whom. It's JR's attitude towards the subject (among other things) that make me lean that way.



I'm not sure "vicious" is the word I'd use. But if I were you, I'd read up on the Jeffrey MacDonald case vis-a-vis this one.



I've been known to.



It's just as well for both of us that I have nothing to say.

Wha? You said plenty. Try rereading it.

Its not your fault, SD.

Its not that you are bending PR and JR to suit, thats what RDI does automatically.

The spelling in the RN is different than the spelling in PR's exemplars. RDI is forced to bend PR into a shape where she deliberately or accidentally misspelled these words.

I frankly don't even consider either alternative seriously. PR accidentally wandering back and forth on spellings, or deliberately misspelling words are your only options, and they're both absurd.

Its too convenient for RDI to say high-handedly and matter-of-factly that PR accidentally or deliberately misspelled these words, when nobody even noticed it for years--and have it not look like a Gumby.

If there was some historical document where PR spelled these words the same as the RN, then there would be some actual evidence that PR disguised or changed her spelling. As it is, RDI is just throwing it out there as a quick fix damage control to RDI theory.

 

[Roy23]

We have a problem.

According to recent CNN and CBS news reports, IT DOES!

I have heard it does but I have also heard that not all of the markers are present. The markers that exist match but we don't know the probabilities. I am IDI but Lacy did not mention it so that means something too, most likely.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I have heard it does but I have also heard that not all of the markers are present. The markers that exist match but we don't know the probabilities. I am IDI but Lacy did not mention it so that means something too, most likely.

I don't think Lacy mentioned 'mixed with blood in her underwear' either. There is a saying about discretion, you know. Glad to hear you're IDI, although that has become common. I was IDI before, well, you know.