The Science & Statistics Behind Hot Car Deaths

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
gngr~snap said:
Which is what they are trying to say about RH.
2 nights Cooper slept with them, Chick fil a wasn't but 2-3x a month...

BUT... he always took Cooper and he planned to see a movie, not go home and sleep so....


All posts are MOO
Click to expand...

Which is why RH is in the slammer and could be facing the death penalty. His claim that he forgot is not believable. LE investigates each of these cases and determines the facts. And sometimes the circumstances are that it was a change in routine or the parent was tired or stressed which led to the tragedy and the death of the child is punishment enough. LH's public attitude that they'll just make another baby sure isn't helping the public perception of her or her husband.

JMO
 
Here's some information on medical consequences that can happen when a child is abandoned in a hot car and survives. Not a rosy picture. All three cases presented in the paper resulted in permanent brain damage.

From the discussion portion:

Leaving children unattended in or around vehicles is a serious problem and a form of neglect. More than 1000 cases involving injury or death have been documented so far from USA. Between 35- 40% of victims aged 14 and under do not survive. There is an overall fatality rate of 20 - 25% of all victims after entrapment episodes. In France, two children died of heatstroke after fathers left them locked in cars due to tragic lapse in care. They went to work thinking the outside temperature was only 25oC. Meanwhile in the US a four year old boy died on his mother’s wedding day after she left him locked in her car while she went for a manicure. The big day turned into a tragedy when she came out of the beauty salon 3 hours later to find her son, who she thought was at a relative’s house, slumped inside her parked vehicle.
Click to expand...


Vehicular Entrapment and Heat Stroke in Three children: Is it a Form of Child Neglect?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3191648/
 
Tink said:
This was how I felt originally. BUT, if you look at my earlier post in this thread - there was a case in Milton, Ontario (near where I live) where a grandmother left her grandson in the car and he died. She moved the car in the middle of the day and DID NOT NOTICE anything. She drove the car to the daycare to pick him up at the end of the day, and again, did not not notice anything. It was only when the daycare told her that her grandson had never been dropped off that she returned to the car to find him dead.

I had thought that there would be an overwhelming odour. This case suggests to me that this may not actually happen, at least not in every case. In fact, reading about other cases suggests that other people have done similar things - driven some distance with a deceased child in the car and not known it.

Tink
Click to expand...

Thank you. That puts another "fact" (that there had to be a smell) into the non-fact pile.
 
gngr~snap said:
Which is what they are trying to say about RH.
2 nights Cooper slept with them, Chick fil a wasn't but 2-3x a month...

BUT... he always took Cooper and he planned to see a movie, not go home and sleep so....


All posts are MOO
Click to expand...



And he didn't forget his cell phone to use for the sexting that he wasn't too tired to do.........
 
SStarr33 said:
Thank you. That puts another "fact" (that there had to be a smell) into the non-fact pile.
Click to expand...
http://m.newsitem.com/news/eight-te...sunbury-infant-s-hyperthermia-death-1.1540595

"SUNBURY - The arresting officer in the hyperthermia death of a 1-year-old girl testified Thursday that the odor of decomposition was "sickening" and that temperatures in the room where she was found reached more than 90 degrees."
"Land, who was asked to identify multiple photographs of the child's body, said, "I noticed that the body was breaking down at a much faster rate than usual due to extensive decomposition. The body was discolored and almost in a mummified state."


Any baby that dies and is left in the heat for HOURS is going to decompose.
Not mentioning it in news articles doesn't mean it did not happen moo

All posts are MOO
 
gngr~snap said:
http://m.newsitem.com/news/eight-te...sunbury-infant-s-hyperthermia-death-1.1540595

"SUNBURY - The arresting officer in the hyperthermia death of a 1-year-old girl testified Thursday that the odor of decomposition was "sickening" and that temperatures in the room where she was found reached more than 90 degrees."
"Land, who was asked to identify multiple photographs of the child's body, said, "I noticed that the body was breaking down at a much faster rate than usual due to extensive decomposition. The body was discolored and almost in a mummified state."


Any baby that dies and is left in the heat for HOURS is going to decompose.
Not mentioning it in news articles doesn't mean it did not happen moo

All posts are MOO
Click to expand...

That article does not mention Leslie McDonals.
 
Tink said:
I don't know why she moved the car either. I'm assuming she didn't call for help (on a phone) because she is deaf, but I don't know why she didn't go back into the daycare to ask them to call. Perhaps panic and shock? We don't always behave rationally in those situations. Being deaf, she may have had difficulty communicating with the daycare staff and so went to her daughter?

What do you think an appropriate sentence would have been? Are you saying you think she did this intentionally?

Tink
Click to expand...

I cannot offer that opinion without knowing more background info such as why she moved her vehicle at noon, et al. However, what I will say is that, as a society, we cannot accept "Forgetful Hot Car Death Syndrome" defense for all defendants. Each hcd case varies. I forget stuff often but I don't have to plan a funeral due to my forgetfulness. I agree with the prosecutor of the Chase Harrison Hot Car Death in '08.

Miles Harrison, 49, of Virginia, left his two year old son, Chase, in the car while he went to work. His little boy was inside the hot car for eight hours.

"Defense attorney Peter D. Greenspun said Miles Harrison could never have intended harm to a son he loved so much and struggled so hard to obtain, including three arduous trips to a distant orphanage."

"The standard for involuntary manslaughter is "negligence so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a callous disregard for human life," [Judge] Ney said. Greenspun said the case was an accident, negligence but not gross negligence. Ney said that accidents are blameless and that negligence implies fault.

The prosecutor said: "This is a case that involves parental responsibility. A case where an adult has voluntarily taken on the care of another life. . . . This is someone who took on the responsibility for Chase that morning. He put him in a hot car, and then he abandoned him."
Click to expand...

From trial testimony regarding the condition of his son's body after being in the heat for eight hours. This is similar to what I expect in the AR findings for sweet Cooper:

". . . the lower portion of the body was red to red-purple. . ."

As the most excruciating of the evidence came out, from the medical examiner, the women in the back drew closer together, leaning in to each other.

" . . . a green discoloration of the abdomen . . . autolysis of the organs . . . what we call skin slippage . . . the core body temperature reaches 108 degrees when death ensues."
Click to expand...

These unpleasant chemical reactions in the lifeless body are called decomposition. No way decomp can occur without releasing foul-smelling gaseous odors, in my informed opinion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/16/AR2008121600924.html

moioo
 
Human's detection of odor is quite subjective.

A mom, like Leanna?, may be supersensitive to wet or dirty diaper smell, and
that odor may prompt her to automatically conclude, Okay, time for a diaper change, let me get supplies. She changes diaper.

A dad, like Ross? may be quite oblivious to that same diaper smell and may prompt him to react a different way.
Okay, time for a diaper change, Hey, Leanna, here's my little buddy, pls take care of him [handing tot to mom].
Or we're almost to day care, I'll let them do it. Tells daycare, Bighurrythismorning, lateforameeting, seeya.

Sorry for stereotyping mom & dad chores.

I can understand why diff ppl at pizza place had/have diff comments about the odor/non-odor.
Ditto, other ppl's descriptions at other hot car deaths.

IMO, by the time Ross went to car at lunch or after work, there must have been some wet or dirty diaper odor there.
Perhaps decomp odor too.

Maybe def argument at trial will be, to lay out subjective nature of smell, then say,
sure, the car smelled funky, but Ross did not think anything of it, because he never changed diapers.
Why would that prompt him to look in back seat at lunch or after work?
I hope not. And if def counsel is reading here, good luck w that lame idea.

Might be a bit O/T here, but this thread seems like best place for it. Mod, pls move if approp.
ETA - to trim post.
 
Now I am getting quite interested in this whole question of how soon after death a body begins to smell. This study seems to suggest it takes three days:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...th-can-point-to-murder-time.html#.U9rh9fldXJo

And this may be the study referred to:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

Or possibly another one. It is clear that heat will speed up the process, but would it speed it up that much? If it normally takes three days for the "smell of death" compounds to be released in a dead body, would you expect to smell them after, say, six to eight hours in a hot car? Would moving the dead body cause the gases to be released sooner, perhaps?

Tink
 
Tink said:
Now I am getting quite interested in this whole question of how soon after death a body begins to smell. This study seems to suggest it takes three days:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...th-can-point-to-murder-time.html#.U9rh9fldXJo

And this may be the study referred to:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

Or possibly another one. It is clear that heat will speed up the process, but would it speed it up that much? If it normally takes three days for the "smell of death" compounds to be released in a dead body, would you expect to smell them after, say, six to eight hours in a hot car? Would moving the dead body cause the gases to be released sooner, perhaps?

Tink
Click to expand...
****GRAPHIC*****
This paragraph actually starts on page 61, but I'm not linking to it. Here is page 63... It's gory stuff and about a shark attack. The paragraph just starts there for some reason.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LG...hildren+heat+stroke+and+cars&output=html_text

All posts are MOO
 
Tink said:
Now I am getting quite interested in this whole question of how soon after death a body begins to smell. This study seems to suggest it takes three days:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...th-can-point-to-murder-time.html#.U9rh9fldXJo

And this may be the study referred to:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

Or possibly another one. It is clear that heat will speed up the process, but would it speed it up that much? If it normally takes three days for the "smell of death" compounds to be released in a dead body, would you expect to smell them after, say, six to eight hours in a hot car? Would moving the dead body cause the gases to be released sooner, perhaps?

Tink
Click to expand...

No matter what, a full diaper alone would've been very stinky after sitting in hot car all day.
 
Tink said:
Now I am getting quite interested in this whole question of how soon after death a body begins to smell. This study seems to suggest it takes three days:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...th-can-point-to-murder-time.html#.U9rh9fldXJo

And this may be the study referred to:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

Or possibly another one. It is clear that heat will speed up the process, but would it speed it up that much? If it normally takes three days for the "smell of death" compounds to be released in a dead body, would you expect to smell them after, say, six to eight hours in a hot car? Would moving the dead body cause the gases to be released sooner, perhaps?

Tink
Click to expand...

There is a forensic scientific analysis method that takes into account the additive effects of increased environmental temperatures to make determinations about the post mortem interval. This is referred to as "Accumulated Degree Days" (or, hours, in this case). It's also useful for evaluating the stage of growth of certain insects on and around remains. Here is a little overview:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15932096 <--- Abstract only, sorry!

A total of 68 human remains cases with a known date of death were scored for decomposition and a regression equation was calculated to predict ADD from decomposition score. ADD accounts for approximately 80% of the variation in decomposition. This study indicates that decomposition is best modeled as dependent on accumulated temperature, not just time.
Click to expand...

(BBM above)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-009-9109-5 ( A pig study; abstract only)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01559.x/abstract (more pigs)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/kevin_neal/29.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/visibleproofs/education/entomology/index.html

Essentially, a hotter environment greatly accelerates decomposition. I'm not sure of the exact calculations for the Harris SUV, but it seems logical that internal temps in excess of 120 degrees Fahrenheit would produce changes in a corpse consistent with more than the 6 or so hours of post mortem interval that the corpse was inside. How much more, I don't know for sure-- a forensic ME would have to answer that. But I would think that those extreme temps could make 6 hours into 2-3 days equivalent at more mild temps.

In this particular case, for example, there would be no lowering of the body temp with the hours after death (algor mortis) to match ambient temps, because the ambient temps in the car were in excess of maximum survivable body temperature. In essence, I strongly suspect the body continued to increase in temp after death to match that of the environment, not decrease. Which would account for greatly accelerated decomposition (especially with gut flora), and odors of decomposition.
 
al66pine said:
Human's detection of odor is quite subjective.

A mom, like Leanna?, may be supersensitive to wet or dirty diaper smell, and
that odor may prompt her to automatically conclude, Okay, time for a diaper change, let me get supplies. She changes diaper.

A dad, like Ross? may be quite oblivious to that same diaper smell and may prompt him to react a different way.
Okay, time for a diaper change, Hey, Leanna, here's my little buddy, pls take care of him [handing tot to mom].
Or we're almost to day care, I'll let them do it. Tells daycare, Bighurrythismorning, lateforameeting, seeya.

Sorry for stereotyping mom & dad chores.

I can understand why diff ppl at pizza place had/have diff comments about the odor/non-odor.
Ditto, other ppl's descriptions at other hot car deaths.

IMO, by the time Ross went to car at lunch or after work, there must have been some wet or dirty diaper odor there.
Perhaps decomp odor too.

Maybe def argument at trial will be, to lay out subjective nature of smell, then say,
sure, the car smelled funky, but Ross did not think anything of it, because he never changed diapers.
Why would that prompt him to look in back seat at lunch or after work?
I hope not. And if def counsel is reading here, good luck w that lame idea.

Might be a bit O/T here, but this thread seems like best place for it. Mod, pls move if approp.
ETA - to trim post.
Click to expand...

Not to sound truly disgusting, but.........maybe RH was having a particularly gaseous day that day, and his own smell masked everything else... Who knows? (Originally said in jest, but when you think about it, it actually could be a possibility.)
 
Not sure where we posted about this here but the final-final outcome is very sad. imo

[h=1]Mental Illness Likely Caused Death Of Allison Pluck And 2 Children In Hot Car[/h]
A woman who died along with her two young daughters in a hot car last spring had a history of paranoia and most likely had some sort of "psychological break" as the temperature inside the vehicle reached about 120 degrees, the medical examiner's office said Tuesday.
The mother, Allison Pluck, had told family members she was concerned people were following her, and that her older daughter, 18-month-old Shania Gill, was "seeing things," according to autopsy information obtained by The Associated Press.
-----------
The medical examiner's office announced in August that Pluck, a native of Guyana, and her daughters died from accidental hyperthermia. The new material was from the final autopsy report.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/09/allison-pluck-mental-illness_n_5794338.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
 
I just wanted to share this pic- I ordered these back when little Cooper passed (RIP sweet little dude) - and think it's a great idea- a sticker to put on the front drivers window as a reminder to always check the car. I ordered a bunch - for my car, husbands car, parents cars for when they drive the kids, etc.

e0b979cebb8fdbd1009e5c5ad11c92b9.jpg


Anyway, hope this helps. Cool idea.


Sent from my not so humble opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 164 more.
Total: 4,010 (members: 165, guests: 3,845)

Online statistics

Members online
165
Guests online
3,845
Total visitors
4,010
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
602,567
Messages
18,142,724
Members
231,439
Latest member
MsIris1127
Back
Top