The Sidebar - Harris Trial #2

[watergirl62]

RSBM.

But do we have any reason to think that RH was aware of any of these cases? The ones I wrote about earlier are ones I think he was likely to be aware of because they happened in his area and had a lot of press coverage. We have no evidence of him doing any research into children dying in hot cars. How can we say he obviously researched the topic and saw that most parents aren't convicted and so decided to kill Cooper in this manner, when there is no evidence that he researched it?

I don't see any bulletproof evidence. However, his mention of becoming a FBS advocate certainly did not quash justifiable speculation.

Maybe the governor's campaign fed into his grandiose fantasies of self (NPD IMO) and he was running off at the mouth. Maybe LH asked him 'Did you say too much?' all the freaking time. Maybe he researched and orchestrated everything.

I'm at criminal negligence. My hinky meter says different, but there are so many peripheral charges, I'm no longer gunning for malice. Or the DP.


THANKS FOR ALL THE STATISTICS AND CASE RESEARCH Rayemonde, Mimi and Katy.

 

[jbelle]

You're right, it definitely happens. I think more cases of kids being left in cars are heard of in the summer because if it happens in the winter the kid ends up being ok more often than not so the parents just don't speak of it.

I think it's a combo of the heat having been on in the car, the time of day most kids are left (daytime/sunshine), and being prepared for the weather. I'm in Canada and in the winter I dress my child in a snowsuit, he can go outdoors for hours skiing, sledding, building forts in the snow and actually getting wet, dry and in the shelter of a car? He could go hours in the daytime. A baby would have a snowsuit, hat, mitts, a padded car seat around them, often a blanket draped over that, and the shelter of the vehicle would give them the heat of the sun plus shelter from wind.

Some argued that it's funny you only hear of cases in the hot weather but I disagree, it's cold as anything up here but like I said, my son will be right outdoors for hours, we dress for it.

When I hear of kids freezing up here, it's most often because they wandered out on their own in pj's or tshirts like poor little Elijah Marsh. Not saying cold car deaths don't happen, obviously they do, but there is just no preparing/protecting a child from the heat like you can the cold.

 

[jbelle]

Does ANYONE on here honestly believe that if a child passed away on your watch, in a tub, a pool, a vehicle and you were the sole caregiver alone with the child that they would not investigate you at all? That they would just cart the child off and say have a nice day?

Well, if he was that idiotic, then I am more convinced this was not plotted, planned, and researched.

 

[Hope4More]

Part two: reviewing cases of hot car deaths, which are similar to Ross--

JENNA EDWARDS---NO CHARGES FILED
Q: How did you feel when you later heard that police were declining to press charges?
A: Part of me didn’t care—how could my life get any worse? But I had a son who still needed me, a husband who still needed me. Ultimately, I was glad I was able to spare my family the trial, a jail sentence.
Q: How were you treated by the community afterwards? How did media report the death? One of the first hits associated with your name is headlined: “11-month-old left in minivan dies as mother, Dr. Jodie Edwards, went to work.” That’s a pretty clear, implicit judgment.
A: A very vocal segment of the population wanted me charged. Many made assumptions about drug use, or that my children must be unimportant to me. News helicopters flew over my work. I was viciously attacked in comments, on blogs.
http://www.macleans.ca/general/what...w-even-the-most-loving-parents-make-mistakes/

CHRISTIAN LACOMBE-2008, no charges

SERENITY LEE LYMAN-2010--no charges

JUAN PARKS -2007---charges dropped

MAYA PEABODY--2008---no charges


JAHZEL PINON--2010---no charges

MIKA MICHELE TERRY---2005 --no charges


MICHAEL KAI WARSCHAUER---no charges filed

GANNON WERKING---2009 no charges

http://www.kidsandcars.org/child-stories/


So I went through all of the hot car deaths listed on the kids and cars site, and pulled ALL of the cases where a parent was going to work and forgot their child was in the car still.

22 cases, plus 4 that Dr Diamond testified in, so 26 cases, of parents forgetting====NONE went to jail. Most were never even charged.

So if Ross had decided to research parents 'forgetting' their kids on the way to work, he could be pretty sure he would not do any jail time.

Ross didn't do that research, so not sure what knowledge he had of what happened to the parents responsible for the deaths of their children in hot cars.


One key context to note about how past cases were handled is the huge difference between states in related law.

Three examples: Georgia (can be charged with felony murder, even without intent); Florida ("mandatory" felony charge of aggravated manslaughter [up to 30 years in prison], even without intent; New York (charges can be as minor as a misdemeanor charge of simple negligence).


RH knew he'd be investigated (the "stick" in Deal's look twice campaign). What he couldn't have anticipated (intent or not) is that he'd be charged the same day, that LE would obtain search warrants for his phone and computers that same day, and that he wouldn't be granted bail.

All of that is what makes how LE handled his case highly unusual, in any state. Every state investigates these deaths, but those investigations can go for days, even months, before a parent is formally charged, much less kept in jail (exception Florida on the initial charge, but parents are typically granted bail and released).

 

[MzOpinion8d]

First, if you get to “know” some of your fellow WS’ers, you’ll learn that many of us are survivors of personal experiences with the darkest, most disturbed people there are to be found, which by the way, is not only in the “lower eschelons.”

Second, having a background or experience in LE and related fields doesn’t always equate with getting it right or doing it right, as the example of Stoddard’s bias illustrates quite beautifully, I think.

I’m sure Stoddard did have a “gut feeling” about RH, and some of his initial suspicions were on target. Our legal system doesn’t permit those with a badge of whatever kind, though, thank God, to act on their personal “gut feelings” outside the bounds of the law. Gathering evidence is required. Diligent, ethical, and unbiased examination of the evidence is required.

The “gut feelings” of LE have been proved wrong innumerable times, sometimes early on, sometimes after the fact, sometimes after the innocent subjects of those gut feelings have been wrongly imprisoned for decades for crimes they did not commit.

Last, everyone here brings something different to the table. Dismissing as “book learning” and inferior every perspective and opinion that isn’t advanced by posters with experience in the criminal justice system (which BTW, is another rather large assumption) IMO kind of misses the point of just about everything WS is supposed to be about, and often is. Jmo.

1. I'm very aware of that, and I said nothing about "lower eschelons"?

2. So I'm supposed to consider everyone else's background, but my experience and background is useless?

3. I didn't say anything about Stoddard in the post you are quoting. I said *I* have dealt with many inmates. And I'm a nurse, actually, not a law enforcement professional. I'm not talking about gut feelings. I'm talking about actually knowing, from interactions with inmates, how they think.

4. Where did I say that every perspective and opinion that isn't advanced by posters with experience in the criminal justice system is "book learning" and inferior? If that's truly how you interpreted my comment, it explains a lot about why your opinion on Ross's guilt is so vastly different than mine, as your interpretation and understanding of words is not the same as mine.

 

[ShayHay!]

Toaster oven or just toaster? I'm confused. I got rid of my toaster cause it was so very hot on the outside and only use a toaster oven now. (looking suspiciously at my appliances).

I wish I'd looked at mine more closely. My (old) coffee pot has (had) a toggle switch. Yesterday when I went to turn it on, it somehow got "off track," shot out sparks and gave a loud pop! It scared me to death. I was able to unplug it before it actually burst into flames.

My dad warned me years ago that coffee makers were notorious for turning themselves on and had been the cause of many a house fire. Therefore, I've always unplugged not only my coffee maker but all small appliances when not in use.

 

[Violet1820]

I'm still catching up, but so many things are bothering me. I can't even remember them all, so I want to throw a couple out there.

Not sure if this was ever discussed in the past, but we know that this was an infant car seat, from RH's own admission. This was the one they had since he was born. IIRC the straps were in the tightest position when Copper was found. If this seat could have held a new born, wouldn't Cooper have been hurting and crying with the straps that tight?!

Also all this nonsense about the car seat that LH testified doesn't add up to me. It was too hard to use?! Seriously?! And RH saying they made good money, planning cruises. They couldn't buy a second forward facing car seat? That part doesn't necessarily mean guilt, but to me it's definitely selfish, lazy, and not concerned enough about Cooper's comfort.

After seeing the LH and RH video again, it just gets weirder and weirder. RH tells her that he just wants to go home and look at pictures on his phone!!! She immediately pulls out her phone, and I am assuming pulls up a picture of Cooper to show him, but of course we can't see that for sure.
He was not wanting to see pics of Cooper! When he realized he was in deep, he wanted to get home away from that jail cell and erase all his sexting.

They just lost their beautiful infant son, and pulling up a picture of him evokes no emotion from either of them? She put the phone down again pretty quickly.



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[BetteDavisEyes]

This incident happened a couple of weeks ago at a local shopping center. I wondered what the mother's childcare plans were if she was hired.

Mom cited for leaving baby in car during job interview in Troy

By John Steckroth - Digital news editor
Posted: 11:48 AM, October 12, 2016

TROY, Mich. - A 26-year-old Detroit woman was issued a misdemeanor citation for child neglect after officers found her 9-month-old baby unattended in a vehicle in Troy while she interviewed for job, according to police.

The incident happened Friday at about 12:30 p.m. in the Kroger parking lot on E. Long Lake Road.

Police said a witness heard a baby crying from inside a maroon 2007 Chevy Impala. The outside temperature was 75 degrees and the baby was drenched in sweat, according to authorities...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/mom-cited-for-leaving-baby-in-car-during-job-interview-in-troy

 

[monkeypants]

Federal Prison? Ummm June 6, 2014.... Orange is The New Black new season... that has been established in testimony and computer records.

Regardless of so called reason for searching, isn't information gleaned? I didn't give intent for the research......no need to direct it away from its original intent of a post...


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[momoftwocrazies]

Channel 11 in Atlanta has a group of lawyers who have been discussing this case.

They have put videos online and I've been catching up on them today.



One of them said that the defense needed a good expert witness and they didn't have one. She called the memory expert who testified a "Howdy Doody gentleman."

Still laughing at that and just wanted to share.

Link please

 

[monkeypants]

I've heard similar thoughts lately on this forum lately and I just don't think I can agree with your opinion that RH didn't think LE would dig deep into his cell phone data and records and just do a cursory view of CPS records and church attendance/participation. I think anyone 40ish or younger, especially an IT worker, know one of the very first things LE want to possess is alleged perps cell. Think of all the all-revealing info on everyone's cell...Location/GPS w respective time stamps,texts/sexts/pics/bank records/Google searches/work projects/schedules on calender/contacts,etc. RH knew he had incriminating info, hence, the sexy apps hidden inside elusively named folders. I have zero intentions of me personally committing any future crimes, but if I were, the very first thing I would destroy is my cell as I feel LE will not offer me any form of pass go collect $200.00. RH knew the severity of sexting w minors. Major prison time. If Whisper and Kik had been deleted from his cell those apps and conversations would not be traceable. Gone forever. No proof, no prison time for minors. I feel very strongly RH as an IT clearly knew what is and isn't traceable
I also understand some perps like to keep memento's of their conquests, but RH could have have easily saved the vagay pics and deleted the actual Whisper/Kik conversation revealing sender/time/day/age.

You and I can agree to disagree then because I don't think you can generalize and use the word "anyone". Even the DT intoned that RH wasn't the brightest bulb in the vanity fixture.


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[Rayemonde]

I really don't know. But he was an avid googler.

I am just saying that IF he looked into it, he would see that if a parent 'accidentally' forgets a child on their way to work, they are almost never sent to jail. And often there are no charges filed.

I had a quick Google and found quite a few parents who accidentally forgot their kid in the car prior to Cooper's death and *were* charged, but weren't on your list. If RH researched hot car deaths, did he use Google or the kids and cars website? It just gets too speculative. We can speculate about what research he did and what he found from his research, but the prosecution hasn't offered any evidence that he actually did any research at all into the matter.

 

[RANCH]

In my opinion the State provided very weak "research" evidence and hopes the jury will take that weak evidence and extrapolate it into intent. I don't see it but you never know with a jury. Especially a jury that may be very angry with RH over the sexting with a minor. JMO

 

[monkeypants]

Ross didn't do that research, so not sure what knowledge he had of what happened to the parents responsible for the deaths of their children in hot cars.


One key context to note about how past cases were handled is the huge difference between states in related law.

Three examples: Georgia (can be charged with felony murder, even without intent); Florida ("mandatory" felony charge of aggravated manslaughter [up to 30 years in prison], even without intent; New York (charges can be as minor as a misdemeanor charge of simple negligence).


RH knew he'd be investigated (the "stick" in Deal's look twice campaign). What he couldn't have anticipated (intent or not) is that he'd be charged the same day, that LE would obtain search warrants for his phone and computers that same day, and that he wouldn't be granted bail.

All of that is what makes how LE handled his case highly unusual, in any state. Every state investigates these deaths, but those investigations can go for days, even months, before a parent is formally charged, much less kept in jail (exception Florida on the initial charge, but parents are typically granted bail and released).

You can't say definitively that "Ross didn't do that research" his cache was cleared and there is no way to state that, for either side.


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[Rocco]

You're right, it definitely happens. I think more cases of kids being left in cars are heard of in the summer because if it happens in the winter the kid ends up being ok more often than not so the parents just don't speak of it.

I think it's a combo of the heat having been on in the car, the time of day most kids are left (daytime/sunshine), and being prepared for the weather. I'm in Canada and in the winter I dress my child in a snowsuit, he can go outdoors for hours skiing, sledding, building forts in the snow and actually getting wet, dry and in the shelter of a car? He could go hours in the daytime. A baby would have a snowsuit, hat, mitts, a padded car seat around them, often a blanket draped over that, and the shelter of the vehicle would give them the heat of the sun plus shelter from wind.

Some argued that it's funny you only hear of cases in the hot weather but I disagree, it's cold as anything up here but like I said, my son will be right outdoors for hours, we dress for it.

When I hear of kids freezing up here, it's most often because they wandered out on their own in pj's or tshirts like poor little Elijah Marsh. Not saying cold car deaths don't happen, obviously they do, but there is just no preparing/protecting a child from the heat like you can the cold.

I live in a region of brutally cold temperatures too. I've never heard of a case of a cold car death---and I agree, it's for all the reasons you have stated plus the fact that metabolism slows WAY down.

An 11 yr old boy fell through the ice years ago in December, was underwater for 45minutes, was clinically dead when brought in, and yet survived.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-22/news/mn-30740_1_red-river

 

[yupikgirl]

Regardless of so called reason for searching, isn't information gleaned? I didn't give intent for the research......no need to direct it away from its original intent of a post...


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I agree jdj

Orange is the new black has got to be the dumbest reason IMO to search about prison. The show is set in a prison. You watch the show and see them in prison LOL. IMO he read about prison because he was thinking about the age of consent in Georgia.

And nobody but Ross knows why he read about prison. It is not a fact that it's about the show. That's his attorneys claim. Very different.

As far as not deleting the apps? My opinion is he never thought that would be what they looked for or happened to see. Most criminals are not very bright. And he is a criminal. That is a fact. He sent minors pictures of his penis and he asked for photos back.


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[yupikgirl]

You can't say definitively that "Ross didn't do that research" his cache was cleared and there is no way to state that, for either side.


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Agreed. Besides maybe Leanna did the "research". She did say they talked about it all the time. I don't even know why there needs to be more research than the parents own words. Both talked about it like they knew about cases and were fearful of it because they knew it could happen. Weird that they didn't do anything to make sure it didn't happen. Even weirder that if they (Ross said he forgot to "look again"making it seem like he sometimes did that) did that he forgot that day.

IMO the jury will find him guilty of one of the murder charges.


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[Hope4More]

You can't say definitively that "Ross didn't do that research" his cache was cleared and there is no way to state that, for either side.


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The reason why LE found the "child-free," and "what's life in prison like" searches, " and his vet video viewing , is because he didn't in fact clear the cache on his Mozilla browser.

You're right that it can't be known, definitively, that he never searched FBS cases on any device, ever. What we do know is that RH didn't try to delete those other "incriminating" search records, and that the State conceded there was no evidence RH conducted searches on hot car deaths or FBS or child negligence/ cruelty statutes, or malicious intent.

I'm comfortable concluding, as a trial watcher, that it is highly unlikely he did those searches, on any device. If a juror, having to rely on evidence alone,there is no basis for asserting that he did.

 

[yupikgirl]

There was NO HISTORY on his phone beyond that day. Weird.

BS if I'm remembering right. I'll have to look today- my apologies if wrong. But that speaks volumes to me.


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[monkeypants]

I agree jdj

Orange is the new black has got to be the dumbest reason IMO to search about prison. The show is set in a prison. You watch the show and see hem in prison LIK. IMO he read about prison because he was thinking about the age of consent in Georgia.

And nobody but Ross knows why he read about prison. It is not a fact that it's about the show. That's his attorneys claim. Very different.

As far as not deleting the apps? My opinion is he never thought that would be what they looked for or happened to see. Most criminals are not very bright. And he is a criminal. That is a fact. He sent minors pictures of his penis and he asked for photos back. IMO he did this on purpose and it all relates to his other life- which is why they were tried together.


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I actually really agree with on the reason for the search.i watch that show as well and it's a pretty thin excuse IMO.

Everyone is so crazy hung up on whether he researched hot car deaths its insane, I've had to roll and scroll over these posts because they play ZERO part in this trial. He cleared his cache regularly...there is NO way to know what he searched for, when he searched it and how many times if at all!! gotta call out my animated movie quotes and "let it go" peeps. It's a rabbit hole.

All we need to know of his knowledge is WHAT RH HAS TOLD US HE KNOWS. Plain and simple. He told us he knows it exists, he told us he watched a video, a psa and also that LH tells us there was a long standing conversation between them, we know he was at some point doing a second look as he told us this, he told us he knew he should have put his brief case back there. WE KNOW BECAUSE HE SPOKE THE WORDS! He knows as much as anyone could possibly know. <modsnip>


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