The Sidebar - Ross Harris Trial

[katydid23]

You mean the divorce? This is old news. Leanne has always said and continues to say that Ross loved his son and was a wonderful father. He would never intentionally harm Cooper.

It is nice of her to say these things about her ex husband. But I have to strongly disagree that he 'was a wonderful father.' He was not a wonderful father. Wonderful Fathers do not forget about their sons 2 minutes into the drive to daycare drop off. He may have had some lovely qualities as a father, but overall, he was a failure at the job. :cry:

The same with her statement about how much he 'loved' his son. I can see from his pictures that he loved to play with him, etc. And I am sure he was loving most of the time.

But in my opinion, if he truly and sincerely loved and cherished his son, he could not have just forgotten about him in a matter of minutes, while he was the sole caretaker in charge of him. If you love your baby, you are highly aware of them. You are HYPER AWARE of them, and in constant 'communication' with them while they are with you.

I always looked in the rear view mirror to make sure mine were breathing, lol. It is just an automatic parenting response, in my experience, to be constantly vigilant around a young baby.

So it is hard of me to fully accept that Ross was a totally loving, wonderful, devoted father. :no:

 

[just the facts pls]

The stuff from Professor Diamond, in my most honest opinion, is a bunch of bull. Sleep deprivation and changing routines/schedules is what MOST new parents face and from my experience I will agree to that. How about instead of normalizing and rationalizing what such a small percentage of parents do, we look at what makes them unique to the millions of sleep deprived parents who face changing routines as well yet never leave their child in a car for hours? It happens too often, because even one child death due to being forgotten is too much, but if it simply came down to exhaustion and change of routine this would be resulting in child deaths at a rate of an epidemic.

I agree 10,000% with everything you've said.

According to noheatstroke.org, almost one in five deaths are the result of a parent or caregiver intentionally leaving their kid in the car. That is way too often for children to die like this and all the more reason to practice more judicial vigilance when these "accidents" happen. I am also concerned that the numbers are actually higher because most people, including law enforcement, tend to assume the parents has simply been forgetful. IMO it's a good thing that Atlanta PD were on top of things when Cooper died. They saw right away something wasn't right and investigated appropriately. Considering that baking to death is one of THE most horrifying ways for someone to die, it should never ever be minimized, dismissed, or rationalized away. Seriously, I can't believe there are people who think/feel that way.

 

[ReadyorNot]

I think there possibly a damning text or post sometime that morning prior to work also (from podcast) that State will use paraphrasing needing a break. It was late when I listened but it kinda made me go hmm

...And how hard is 1 child? I dont think the jury is going to be too sympathetic to him especially when they hear about that. That is just my opinion.

 

[ReadyorNot]

My husband is deaf in one ear but now his other ear seems to compensate. I do not buy any excuse that implies Connor was awake, making noise etc. but he didn't hear him because he's been deaf in that ear for years!

Maybe your husband is not telling you the truth or is not aware of what normal hearing is? Losing 50% of your hearing will definitely cause problems especially with identifying sounds and their location. I am not white knighting RH but it is the truth, just being fair.


A link to explain the effect of this type of hearing loss.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/understanding-single-sided-deafness-evaluation-6829

 

[blue22]

I agree 10,000% with everything you've said.

According to noheatstroke.org, almost one in five deaths are the result of a parent or caregiver intentionally leaving their kid in the car. That is way too often for children to die like this and all the more reason to practice more judicial vigilance when these "accidents" happen. I am also concerned that the numbers are actually higher because most people, including law enforcement, tend to assume the parents has simply been forgetful. IMO it's a good thing that Atlanta PD were on top of things when Cooper died. They saw right away something wasn't right and investigated appropriately. Considering that baking to death is one of THE most horrifying ways for someone to die, it should never ever be minimized, dismissed, or rationalized away. Seriously, I can't believe there are people who think/feel that way.

This is why every child who dies in a car, should be a charge for the caregiver. There are 37 per year on average. Millions of parents manage to not do this. I don't care how "good" of a parent they are every other day. On that day, they failed their child and neglected to protect them. As a society, do we really want to let people off, because they are usually good and they feel guilty? I don't.

 

[JudyBolton]

Maybe your husband is not telling you the truth or is not aware of what normal hearing is? Losing 50% of your hearing will definitely cause problems especially with identifying sounds and their location. I am not white knighting RH but it is the truth, just being fair.


A link to explain the effect of this type of hearing loss.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/understanding-single-sided-deafness-evaluation-6829

BBM -
My husband says that at first he was confused about where noises were coming from. After several months he realized he could (once again) hear a noise and tell the direction. I am only reporting the experience of my own husband who has no reason to lie to me about this. He was not speaking about this case, just his own experience.

Quote from Royal Institute of Deaf People which explains what I was saying. "if a person is deaf in one ear only, the brain can still localise sounds by putting much more emphasis on the information from the unblocked ear. It can’t compare information between the ears, so instead it focuses more on the information from the pinna of the unaffected ear. This allows the brain to continue to localise sounds – it’s not quite as effective, but it’s good enough."https://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/community/blogs/our-guest-blog/how-the-brain-compensates-for-hearing-loss.aspx

I was asking for someone to explain the relevance of this to Ross Harris and Connor's death. Thank you!

 

[PaperDoll]

It is nice of her to say these things about her ex husband. But I have to strongly disagree that he 'was a wonderful father.' He was not a wonderful father. Wonderful Fathers do not forget about their sons 2 minutes into the drive to daycare drop off. He may have had some lovely qualities as a father, but overall, he was a failure at the job. :cry:

The same with her statement about how much he 'loved' his son. I can see from his pictures that he loved to play with him, etc. And I am sure he was loving most of the time.

But in my opinion, if he truly and sincerely loved and cherished his son, he could not have just forgotten about him in a matter of minutes, while he was the sole caretaker in charge of him. If you love your baby, you are highly aware of them. You are HYPER AWARE of them, and in constant 'communication' with them while they are with you.

I always looked in the rear view mirror to make sure mine were breathing, lol. It is just an automatic parenting response, in my experience, to be constantly vigilant around a young baby.

So it is hard of me to fully accept that Ross was a totally loving, wonderful, devoted father. :no:

BBM: I agree with your post. Since Ross had a "double life going on" I think when he was with his family he was able to put on the act of being a loving parent but I also think his mind was on his other life, which apparently was the life he really wanted. I think since he was getting deeper and deeper into his "other life" that the one he actually had was becoming to be too much of a burden for him and was in the way. I think he planned this car death. I think he planned in long before it happened but may have been hesitant to actually go through with it. JMO and it's a sad opinion

 

[enchilada]

I'm an absolute dunce when it comes to math, much less statistics, but I suspect your answer about what makes the parents unique who cause their children's deaths by forgetting them is-- nothing identifiable, for good or ill.

New parents are exhausted, parents with more than one toddler are often exhausted, as are parents who work full time and have children of any age. Not all parents commute to a job, but many commutes in many circumstances are long in time and distance, and toss in all the everyday distractions and demands on time, and frankly, it's probably remarkable that so few children do get forgotten and left in cars, and inevitable statistically that it happens.

Some people are just not cut out to be parents. There's nothing wrong with that but it's too bad they didn't realize that before having a child that they are so easily able to "forget."


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[Babbakins]

This is why every child who dies in a car, should be a charge for the caregiver. There are 37 per year on average. Millions of parents manage to not do this. I don't care how "good" of a parent they are every other day. On that day, they failed their child and neglected to protect them. As a society, do we really want to let people off, because they are usually good and they feel guilty? I don't.

I agree 100%

I live in Australia, everyone knows how hot our summers are...but every. single. year there are stories on the news about people leaving their kids in cars.
Even though our TV's are littered with public service announcements reminding us to double check.

I have 4 kids, and have never left them in the car even to pay for petrol, and could never forget I have them with me...especially when they were toddlers, as most toddlers are inquisitive little chatter boxes, well mine were.

I look forward to seeing how this trial is played out...so far, I think he's guilty


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[ReadyorNot]

BBM -
My husband says that at first he was confused about where noises were coming from. After several months he realized he could (once again) hear a noise and tell the direction. I am only reporting the experience of my own husband who has no reason to lie to me about this. He was not speaking about this case, just his own experience.

Quote from Royal Institute of Deaf People which explains what I was saying. "if a person is deaf in one ear only, the brain can still localise sounds by putting much more emphasis on the information from the unblocked ear. It can’t compare information between the ears, so instead it focuses more on the information from the pinna of the unaffected ear. This allows the brain to continue to localise sounds – it’s not quite as effective, but it’s good enough."https://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/community/blogs/our-guest-blog/how-the-brain-compensates-for-hearing-loss.aspx

I was asking for someone to explain the relevance of this to Ross Harris and Connor's death. Thank you!

I meant no offense, I certainly was not implying he is a liar. In hindsight I shouldve chosen my words more carefully. What I meant to convey is hearing loss is commonly associated with shame, self esteem, or self consciousness and some poeple will attempt to minimize it.

While I agree with your response regarding the good ear attempting to make up for it, like it says "its not quite as effective".

 

[magnolia]

It is nice of her to say these things about her ex husband. But I have to strongly disagree that he 'was a wonderful father.' He was not a wonderful father. Wonderful Fathers do not forget about their sons 2 minutes into the drive to daycare drop off. He may have had some lovely qualities as a father, but overall, he was a failure at the job. :cry:

The same with her statement about how much he 'loved' his son. I can see from his pictures that he loved to play with him, etc. And I am sure he was loving most of the time.

But in my opinion, if he truly and sincerely loved and cherished his son, he could not have just forgotten about him in a matter of minutes, while he was the sole caretaker in charge of him. If you love your baby, you are highly aware of them. You are HYPER AWARE of them, and in constant 'communication' with them while they are with you.

I always looked in the rear view mirror to make sure mine were breathing, lol. It is just an automatic parenting response, in my experience, to be constantly vigilant around a young baby.

So it is hard of me to fully accept that Ross was a totally loving, wonderful, devoted father. :no:

if he truly and sincerely loved and cherished his son, he could not have just forgotten about him in a matter of minutes

So, all parents that have forgotten and suffered a similar tragedy don't really love their children????

BBM --Respectfully, I believe your standards for what constitutes love of a child is unfair to many parents. IMO

Not that it matters, but, I find your use of the term "young baby" interesting. Cooper was not a young baby. He was a 22 month old toddler. I commend you for being constantly vigilant around young babies. Whatever you need to do in order to make sure a young baby is safe. Sure, many parents concerned about sudden infant death syndrome check to see if their young baby/infant is still breathing. Not so much when that young baby reaches the age of 22 months old. IMO

As we know, Leanne is not the only person that has come forward to say Harris loved Cooper. Many other people have said the same. I'm not going to use my standards to determine whether RH loved his child or not. I will take the word of those that actually witnessed Harris' relationship and interaction with his son.

 

[Dogface]

I agree even 1 is too much. But evidently there is an epidemic in many states.

I am not going to argue if it is bunch of bull or not. I know I can think of many times that I have drove right past where I was needing to go because my mind was elsewhere and had to turn around. Or leave something plugged in or the stove on. OR unable to remember if I turned them off. Left my purse on car before, many things because of diff reasons. Thank God, no have never left child in car. BUT my neighbor once on a cold rainy morning at just prior to 6 am, after warming car up, put infant in car seat, went in to get other child and out of habit locked the car door.. with car running. She also locked the house door behind her and the 2nd child. Thankfully I had not left for work yet. It was scary for both of us. Thankfully nothing bad happened and a very kind LEO was able to get the car door open. Precious baby all warm and slept through it all. JMHO

Respectfully snipped/bbm.

A handful of deaths upon millions does not an epidemic make. I imagine PSA's are done because the idea of a death so preventable is truly disturbing.

And I think everyone can relate to many of the things you listed, forgetting minor things, like ones exit, or if you locked the door, or shut the garage, accidentally locking the keys in the car. Even your friends absentmindedness in the moment is completely excusable because she realized what she had done right away and remedied it. She didn't leave the car running for hours with her child in it. So yes, I think distractions/sleep loss can result in people making silly mistakes. But leaving a child for hours in a car is not some silly mistake, and a mistake millions of other people under similar circumstances do not make. So I struggle with the idea of an expert who finds justification for it when, IMHO, there is no justification to be had.

 

[JudyBolton]

Although it appears we disagree about Ross Harris I have to say War Eagle, Magnolia! (Game Day!!!!)

 

[magnolia]

Although it appears we disagree about Ross Harris I have to say War Eagle, Magnolia! (Game Day!!!!)

A big Warrrrrr Eagle to you JudyB.:gday:

 

[scandinavian girl]

I have been thinking, for years I have told, nagging and begging people to not leave their dogs in the car in the summer ( I live in Sweden). People still do, it is getting better thanks to social media warnings. I think people who do this love their pet as much as I loved mine. I believe they are taking chances, I will just do this and that and it will take only a minute. That works most of the time until one day there is a long queue in the grocerystore and the cashier is working her first day, you meet someone and start talking or other distractions and the choice you made are undoable, it is fatal and you will regret that descision. I told my sister when she got her dog NOT leaving him in the car and I also told her what I red in Coopers autopsy report of how horrible and cruel such a death is. She changed her ways immidiatley. sorry if this was a little bit out of topic but it is important to realise that cars are deathtraps and no kids or animals should be in one without supervision.

 

[DexterMorgan]

School starts in 10 minutes. Work starts in 15 minutes.

Okay. Let's take our time and have a sit down father and son breakfast at Chick-fil-A.

I wonder if there is a particular worker or employee that he was trying to impress with his caring dad sit down breakfast?

 

[alwaysonmymind]

School starts in 10 minutes. Work starts in 15 minutes.

Okay. Let's take our time and have a sit down father and son breakfast at Chick-fil-A.

I wonder if there is a particular worker or employee that he was trying to impress with his caring dad sit down breakfast?

I think he wanted to be seen on camera with a live Cooper.
moo


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[blue22]

I have been thinking, for years I have told, nagging and begging people to not leave their dogs in the car in the summer ( I live in Sweden). People still do, it is getting better thanks to social media warnings. I think people who do this love their pet as much as I loved mine. I believe they are taking chances, I will just do this and that and it will take only a minute. That works most of the time until one day there is a long queue in the grocerystore and the cashier is working her first day, you meet someone and start talking or other distractions and the choice you made are undoable, it is fatal and you will regret that descision. I told my sister when she got her dog NOT leaving him in the car and I also told her what I red in Coopers autopsy report of how horrible and cruel such a death is. She changed her ways immidiatley. sorry if this was a little bit out of topic but it is important to realise that cars are deathtraps and no kids or animals should be in one without supervision.

I agree. And I think one thing our society (USA. I can't speak for other countries) needs to get away from, is allowing parents to "chance."

I don't see that as taking a chance, I see it as negligence. We KNOW what will happen if dogs and children if they are left in the car too long. Someone who knows and risks it anyway, is choosing to be negligent. Society should not allow people to "chance" living things entrusted in our care.

When children are found alive and sweltering in cars, parents are arrested right there. But they die, and it was a "tragic accident." I just don't understand how we let people off without charges. It's infuriating.

ETA: Sorry I went off on a tangent, I realize it doesn't have a lot to do with your points.

 

[arkansasmimi]

My orig post #93 snipped adding for context.

Snip http://katv.com/news/local/expert-wi...ar-death-trial
Diamond said there were several factors that relate to the Naramore case. One of the main factors he pointed to was a change in routine. He said there were a number of changes to the Naramore's routine that day.
Wade Naramore's wife normally got Thomas ready, but Wade said he got Thomas ready that morning. Diamond also spoke on the stop at McDonald's for breakfast, because he normally had a breakfast bar and a banana.
Diamond also spoke about possible sleep deprivation, along with stress or distractions.
The prosecution questioned Diamond's expertise in the case, and pointed out that most of his testimony is based off Naramore's description of that day.

On the stand Thursday morning was a neuroscientist who began his testimony talking about "Forgotten Baby Syndrome," saying "it can happen to anyone."
"You see some of the most wonderful parents that leave their children in cars," he testified, adding that the phenomenon increased beginning in the late 90s when child seats moved to the back of vehicles in response to airbag injuries.
He told the courtroom that it's more likely to happen when a parent is sleep deprived or out of their normal routine, explaining further that parts of the brain processing plan making, new information and habit compete with and suppress each other.
The neuroscientist said the strength of the brain's habit function shows when a drink is left on top of the car. As soon as you grab your keys, the familiar process kicks in, he said.
On the day Thomas Naramore died, the neuroscientist said his father's routine of taking his son to daycare was interrupted by a stop at McDonald's. The witness continued by saying that the restart of the habit function took Naramore on to work. http://www.myarklamiss.com/news/local-news/arkansas-judge-found-not-guilty-at-hot-car-death-trial

Dogface #108, opinion about my post # yet did not quote. This is where I got the word "epidemic" that I referenced in my post

Dogface #108The stuff from Professor Diamond, in my most honest opinion, is a bunch of bull. Sleep deprivation and changing routines/schedules is what MOST new parents face and from my experience I will agree to that. How about instead of normalizing and rationalizing what such a small percentage of parents do, we look at what makes them unique to the millions of sleep deprived parents who face changing routines as well yet never leave their child in a car for hours? It happens too often, because even one child death due to being forgotten is too much, but if it simply came down to exhaustion and change of routine this would be resulting in child deaths at a rate of an epidemic. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...bar-Ross-Harris-Trial&p=12857010#post12857010

My post #112 that I quoted Dogface post #108

snipped for context
Respectfully bbm, that is your right to have that opinion. I only referenced it because Dr. Diamond was Expert Witness in that case and he is also going to be in this case.
I agree even 1 is too much. But evidently there is an epidemic in many states. So much so that even GA Gov had made an awareness campaign about it less than a month prior. JMHO what makes them unique is that this happen to these cases and they become emotionally charged high profile cases in the media. I have even seen cases in news of people leaving child in car in cold climates. There are Experts in everything imaginable for reasons. JMHO http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...bar-Ross-Harris-Trial&p=12857071#post12857071

blue22 #113 quoted my #112

There is not an epidemic. The average is 30 something per year, nationwide. That's out of tens of millions of children. I agree that one is too many, which is why there are so many PSAs. No state even wants one. Hotter climates are obviously more susceptible, since interiors heat up so rapidly, and it's warmer more months. That's why there tends to be a concentration of info in those states. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...bar-Ross-Harris-Trial&p=12857083#post12857083

Respectfully snipped/bbm.

A handful of deaths upon millions does not an epidemic make. I imagine PSA's are done because the idea of a death so preventable is truly disturbing.

And I think everyone can relate to many of the things you listed, forgetting minor things, like ones exit, or if you locked the door, or shut the garage, accidentally locking the keys in the car. Even your friends absentmindedness in the moment is completely excusable because she realized what she had done right away and remedied it. She didn't leave the car running for hours with her child in it. So yes, I think distractions/sleep loss can result in people making silly mistakes. But leaving a child for hours in a car is not some silly mistake, and a mistake millions of other people under similar circumstances do not make. So I struggle with the idea of an expert who finds justification for it when, IMHO, there is no justification to be had.

Epidemic
noun:
1. a widespread occurrence of an infectious disease in a community at a particular time.

My orig post that was ref but not quoted I posted for context. Again, I only did so as to this same Dr Diamond am Expert Witness in the RH case was recently an Expert Witness in another case in my home state. The "epidemic" word, I took from Dogface post that while referenced my orig post did not quote it. That is where/why I used that word. And while leaving children or animals for that matter is not the same as a disease epidemic, it is a more widespread occurrence. It was being seen happen more and more thus the need for the PSA about it to begin with. as in the quote from Dr. Diamond "You see some of the most wonderful parents that leave their children in cars," he testified, adding that the phenomenon increased beginning in the late 90s when child seats moved to the back of vehicles in response to airbag injuries. Wide spread increase...There was a need to remind people. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

I am trying to be open minded and not emotionally charged in this case (or any I choose to follow). *Not condeming anyone for being emotional in their opinions. I respect everyone's opinion, this is just mine. Any case that is on WS or true crimes that don't make it here have a big emotional pull due to the fact of sheer nature of the crime. They are all brutal and should never happened to begin with in a perfect world. Sadly we do not live in a perfect world. I personally do not follow for an emotional reason. Does not mean I do not empathize with victims/families. I do. I just can't be open minded if I do that following a case.

Different things make me decide which one I follow. Pretrial I like to do the various research and follow the pretrial motions and see how the LEO investigation played out. What possibly get Suppressed and so forth.

Trial wise I like to listen to the evidence presented at trial. In this case, I am going back and listening to some pretrial hearings because of the first week of this trial it is very clear the 4 LEO (Piper, Shumpert (CSI guy),Folgia & Gillimore) that have testified have not testified same as their orig Police Reports (I get this from the Cross Examination). Same with most of witnesses. References have been made that Det Stoddard the Lead Det also has made untruthful statements. Defense Attorney Kilgore made many in his Opening Statements. So far, in PC Hearing, I found some of that in just these 1st witnesses. Also listening to the Dec 14, 2015 Hearing with Det Murphy who secured the Search Warrants, I am truly shocked. He used information that was not factual nor with evidence to secure Search Warrants at the time. Those SW lead to the discovery of the sexting. I know that they were ruled legal because the information is being used in the formal charges and in trial. I understand that the LEO were investigating what had happened to this child. But clearly there was some hinky stuff happened. Det Murphy told a Magistrate multiple times in securing SW as he went, that RH used word "RESEARCH" yet that is not true. Murphy was relying on information from others yet did not list those as source. I understand fully what the Def is doing and why. The fact that Kilgore was prior a DA for Cobb County GA is very interesting and insightful. JMHO