The Sidebar - Ross Harris Trial

[Hope4More]

I am trying to be open minded and not emotionally charged in this case (or any I choose to follow). *Not condeming anyone for being emotional in their opinions. I respect everyone's opinion, this is just mine. Any case that is on WS or true crimes that don't make it here have a big emotional pull due to the fact of sheer nature of the crime. They are all brutal and should never happened to begin with in a perfect world. Sadly we do not live in a perfect world. I personally do not follow for an emotional reason. Does not mean I do not empathize with victims/families. I do. I just can't be open minded if I do that following a case.

Different things make me decide which one I follow. Pretrial I like to do the various research and follow the pretrial motions and see how the LEO investigation played out. What possibly get Suppressed and so forth.

Trial wise I like to listen to the evidence presented at trial. In this case, I am going back and listening to some pretrial hearings because of the first week of this trial it is very clear the 4 LEO (Piper, Shumpert (CSI guy),Folgia & Gillimore) that have testified have not testified same as their orig Police Reports (I get this from the Cross Examination). Same with most of witnesses. References have been made that Det Stoddard the Lead Det also has made untruthful statements. Defense Attorney Kilgore made many in his Opening Statements. So far, in PC Hearing, I found some of that in just these 1st witnesses. Also listening to the Dec 14, 2015 Hearing with Det Murphy who secured the Search Warrants, I am truly shocked. He used information that was not factual nor with evidence to secure Search Warrants at the time. Those SW lead to the discovery of the sexting. I know that they were ruled legal because the information is being used in the formal charges and in trial. I understand that the LEO were investigating what had happened to this child. But clearly there was some hinky stuff happened. Det Murphy told a Magistrate multiple times in securing SW as he went, that RH used word "RESEARCH" yet that is not true. Murphy was relying on information from others yet did not list those as source. I understand fully what the Def is doing and why. The fact that Kilgore was prior a DA for Cobb County GA is very interesting and insightful. JMHO

I think Kilgore will have a great deal to say about Murphy during trial, as well as Stoddard (did you notice that Kilgore questioned the civilian witnesses specifically about whether or not they had been interviewed by Murphy?)

I watched the pretrial videos again thanks to you. . Yes, Murphy's lack of candor was unimpressive to say the least, and it's pretty obvious to me LE obtained their search warrants with information that bordered on (or crossed the line into) flat out untruths, and for sure, too clever by half semantics.

RH never said he "researched" hot car deaths at all, much less hot car deaths of children, and neither did Leanne say any such thing. Both watched something on TV about hot car deaths, and RH said he clicked on that (trending) video of a vet on the subject. That's it.

And when confronted by Kilgore on that fact, Murphy's best response was that yes, he considered watching TV as "research." Wow.

 

[MsJosie]

Katydid....sorry, I can not repost your response.....having trouble again with WS again posting doing the 'reply with quote'. (I do not think it is WS but my carrier). Yes, he can fake a hearing test, people do it all the time but are caught....but there ares some parts he cannotfake.....my husband has had numerous hearing tests and is legally deaf....meaning he hears only a very low frequency but failed everything else.....and cannot hear other sounds pitches or frequencies. There are hairs in the ear that carry the sound....his are almost all gone. If dads defense brings the hearing loss in, the tests should be run....and I sure would like to see anyone do surprise sounds on him. They tried that with my husband....because he could read lips so well, he did not miss alot, so,the doctors thought he was faking the tests...but then they did other tests, finally....and yep he is deaf.
Even if he said he did not hear the baby, and babies are loud, he had to look over his shoulder backing up, turning around....I believe he knew the baby was there.
I guess what I want to see, is a hearing test done if he and his lawyers use this as part of his defense. See what happens...and it has to be a Court appointed doctor.

 

[Hope4More]

Katydid....sorry, I can not repost your response.....having trouble again with WS again posting doing the 'reply with quote'. (I do not think it is WS but my carrier). Yes, he can fake a hearing test, people do it all the time but are caught....but there ares some parts he cannotfake.....my husband has had numerous hearing tests and is legally deaf....meaning he hears only a very low frequency but failed everything else.....and cannot hear other sounds pitches or frequencies. There are hairs in the ear that carry the sound....his are almost all gone. If dads defense brings the hearing loss in, the tests should be run....and I sure would like to see anyone do surprise sounds on him. They tried that with my husband....because he could read lips so well, he did not miss alot, so,the doctors thought he was faking the tests...but then they did other tests, finally....and yep he is deaf.
Even if he said he did not hear the baby, and babies are loud, he had to look over his shoulder backing up, turning around....I believe he knew the baby was there.
I guess what I want to see, is a hearing test done if he and his lawyers use this as part of his defense. See what happens...and it has to be a Court appointed doctor.

A non sequitur, and not, but...

It's interesting to learn about the many different methods peeps use when backing up their cars. The very last conclusion I would draw after reading about all those various methods is that Harris MUST have seen Cooper when he backed into that spot at work.

Backing up is too routine to remember exactly where I routinely look, so, as an experiment, I paid attention last week , every time I backed up, to where I looked and if I could see the back seat.

I have a newfangled beeping backup mirror thingy in my new car, but I don't use it because I trust myself more than whatever it is feeding information to the thingy.

So, I look for myself, same as I've always done for 40 plus driving years. I never use the passenger mirror, including for backing up, so I don't turn to my right. Depending what I'm backing away from and into, I'll use my driver mirror. What I always use is my rear view mirror. I don't physically turn around to look behind me.

When I noticed that was so, I deliberately looked into the rear mirror to see what of the back seat was visible (if RH had forgotten Cooper he wouldn't have done this). At least in my car (Toyota Prius, the large version), no matter every other variable, I couldn't in fact see anything of the backseat, except the top of the seats themselves.

I think what can be seen in the backseat (without turning around or looking to the right passenger mirror) is determined by the angle of the rear view mirror, and who knows how RH's was set.

 

[Wednesday80]

Ty for posting the podcast on this very interesting. (Shoot, on mobile and it didn't properly quote :/)
I have a master's in criminology and technical knowledge of these things but not the field experience.
Interesting to see these opinions and I want to explore them further.
Even in cases like JonBenet, that were in a more controlled environment, it's reported there was a smell so I am hard-pressed to believe there wasn't one present here, but I absolutely allow for the possibility.

 

[angelainwi]

Is there not court today??

 

[Glycerine74]

I am a father of four and just registered on the forum to comment on this case. It strikes a little close to home for me because, although my three daughters are all much older, I do have a son who is just about how old Cooper was. In my opinion there is no way Ross "forgot" about his son:

1.) The events were part of their normal routine, so this is something Ross did every single work day morning without deviation. Maybe the order of what happened might have changed, but the fact is Ross ALWAYS dropped him off for day care.

2.) Looking at the pictures of the vehicle it is plainly clear that Cooper's car seat was practically inches away from his father. There is nothing you could say to convince me that he forgot Cooper was in the back. Consider the fact that it has been documented Cooper was alive and happy at the restaurant, so it's natural to think he would continue that behavior in the car. I promise you that boy was talking, laughing, and babbling the entire time he was in the seat. There is no way he fell asleep that fast, especially if one remembers he was on his way to school. The kid was probably excited and talking up a storm, I know mine is that way for just about any car ride.

3.) There is no way he couldn't have noticed a smell when opening the door, either at lunch time or after work. A dirty diaper by itself would be enough, add to that the smell of decomposition and the fact that the car windows were up all day and the smell would have been enough to knock someone down. Just walking into my son's room to wake him up from his nap after he's been sitting in a dirty diaper for an hour or two is a powerful smell that requires opened widows and doors to air out.

4.) Both parents researched hot car deaths around the time it happened, both have admitted to it, and neither seemed to show much remorse for their deceased son. If something happened to our son both my wife and I would be hysterical, probably inconsolable for quite some time. Even thinking about what happened to Cooper makes my eyes well up with tears and he's not even mine, yet nothing from either of them right after? I find it hard to believe that both of these parents supposedly loved their son, yet neither of them showed much sign of grief? Even the wife at her son's funeral seemed off. Your son is laying there dead in a casket, yet you have the fortitude to stand up and make an impassioned speech about how great the man is who killed him?

It's my opinion that both were involved and that this was planned out in advance. Maybe they needed the money, maybe they knew their marriage was falling apart and thought this would be easier on Cooper? Personally I have no idea how people like this do these types of things. My brain doesn't operate on that level, so I don't think I will ever figure it out.

 

[Hope4More]

I am a father of four and just registered on the forum to comment on this case. It strikes a little close to home for me because, although my three daughters are all much older, I do have a son who is just about how old Cooper was. In my opinion there is no way Ross "forgot" about his son:

1.) The events were part of their normal routine, so this is something Ross did every single work day morning without deviation. Maybe the order of what happened might have changed, but the fact is Ross ALWAYS dropped him off for day care.

2.) Looking at the pictures of the vehicle it is plainly clear that Cooper's car seat was practically inches away from his father. There is nothing you could say to convince me that he forgot Cooper was in the back. Consider the fact that it has been documented Cooper was alive and happy at the restaurant, so it's natural to think he would continue that behavior in the car. I promise you that boy was talking, laughing, and babbling the entire time he was in the seat. There is no way he fell asleep that fast, especially if one remembers he was on his way to school. The kid was probably excited and talking up a storm, I know mine is that way for just about any car ride.

3.) There is no way he couldn't have noticed a smell when opening the door, either at lunch time or after work. A dirty diaper by itself would be enough, add to that the smell of decomposition and the fact that the car windows were up all day and the smell would have been enough to knock someone down. Just walking into my son's room to wake him up from his nap after he's been sitting in a dirty diaper for an hour or two is a powerful smell that requires opened widows and doors to air out.

4.) Both parents researched hot car deaths around the time it happened, both have admitted to it, and neither seemed to show much remorse for their deceased son. If something happened to our son both my wife and I would be hysterical, probably inconsolable for quite some time. Even thinking about what happened to Cooper makes my eyes well up with tears and he's not even mine, yet nothing from either of them right after? I find it hard to believe that both of these parents supposedly loved their son, yet neither of them showed much sign of grief? Even the wife at her son's funeral seemed off. Your son is laying there dead in a casket, yet you have the fortitude to stand up and make an impassioned speech about how great the man is who killed him?

It's my opinion that both were involved and that this was planned out in advance. Maybe they needed the money, maybe they knew their marriage was falling apart and thought this would be easier on Cooper? Personally I have no idea how people like this do these types of things. My brain doesn't operate on that level, so I don't think I will ever figure it out.

Welcome to WebSleuths!!!!! Glad you posted!

And that's still true even though I don't agree with you.

1. It wasn't a 100% regular routine, and the deviations may seem minor to you, but....maybe they weren't for RH.

2. There isn't any way of knowing if Cooper fell asleep, or if he was awake and silent, perhaps because RH told him he needed to think, or perhaps Cooper was occupying himself. No way to know for sure.

3. I'm not at all convinced there was a decomp smell, given no witness other than LE noticed it st the scene. I have wondered how RH could have been unbothered by the smell of a urine soaked diaper, which I would imagine would have been present, though perhaps somewhat contained by Cooper's clothes and the car seat?

4. Neither parent "researched" hot car deaths, at least, not that LE knew of when they asserted that early on. The media repeated it so often most people think that's a fact. It isn't. Both parents watched a TV show or a PSA about hot car deaths, along with many thousands of folks watching TV whatever night that was.

That's the extent of Leanne 's "research." RH also clicked on a trending video by a vet discussing hot car deaths, presumably about animals. That's it, according to LE testimony at a pretrial hearing.


5. The amount of insurance money simply wasn't significant enough to be motive, imo.

 

[Glycerine74]

Thank you for the welcome! I'm speaking from my own personal experience here, so:

1.) He took him to daycare every morning, to me that's routine. It was in his normal morning ritual to drop his son off at daycare.

2.) Speaking from personal experience again, I have yet to see a 2 year old that goes from awake and happy to total silence in the span of a few minutes while on a car ride. Maybe it's possible, but highly doubtful. So are you saying Ross thought of him enough to tell him to be quiet, then forgot he was there minutes later?

3.) Seven hours with the coroner stating they thought he was dead after four? I don't think so, but you can even drop the death smell and just go with a dirty diaper. You are telling me Cooper struggled for several hours, yet somehow didn't defecate on himself in that time? Hell my son does it after 30 minutes like clockwork when we put him down for his nap, and he really doesn't even get that upset. A child slowly baking to death while screaming in a car would, at least in my opinion.

4.) They both admitted it, that's all I need to know. My wife and I are terrified that could happen to our son. Care to guess how many times we've looked it up? Never, simply because the thought is too horrifying to even comprehend, let alone actually think about enough to "research".

5.) I agree with you, not much money, but if the goal was to get rid of Cooper than my thought is any money would be considered a bonus.

 

[PaperDoll]

Glycerine74, WELCOME :loveyou: I agree with your posts, there is NO WAY he forgot Cooper, NO WAY!!!! No excuse. All the evidence I've seen in this case, and it didn't take much, for me to believe he's guilty on all accounts. I also agree that there is no need to look up hot car deaths, common sense would say to NOT leave any living creature in a hot car.

 

[yupikgirl]

Welcome gycerine- completely agree with your posts.


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[arkansasmimi]

Ty for posting the podcast on this very interesting. (Shoot, on mobile and it didn't properly quote :/)
I have a master's in criminology and technical knowledge of these things but not the field experience.
Interesting to see these opinions and I want to explore them further.
Even in cases like JonBenet, that were in a more controlled environment, it's reported there was a smell so I am hard-pressed to believe there wasn't one present here, but I absolutely allow for the possibility.

I can't remember if it was in Opening Stmnts, or one of the PC/Pretrial Hearings, but there was something stated by Def, about slides taken and how the (medical language) of how not possible for that smell yet. So far no one has said they smelled it.

Also I was reading on Hyperthermia death, which is listed as cause of death on Cooper death cert. There wouldn't be a lot of dampness to his clothing due to body shutting down sweating (how our body cools us down). One of my brothers had very bad heat exhaustion a few years ago and he spent night or 2 in hospital. I can't imagine what this toddler went through. My only hope from reading about it is he passed out pretty fast. I am curious if he vomited? Seems to be one of the things that happens with hyperthermia.

I thought was interesting that no bruising from the car seat belts if they were too tight, but I haven't seen that too tight in hearings only the setting of the straps.

 

[Hope4More]

Glycerine...the reply isn't working, but this:

Neither parent "admitted" to researching hot car deaths. That did not happen. LE admitted in a court of law, when being questioned by the defense in a pretrial hearing, that neither said they had "researched" any kind of hot car deaths, much less child's hot car deaths, much less about temps on the car and how long. NONE of that is accurate, or at least, it wasn't anything either "confessed" to, AND , LE had no evidence at that time of "research" being done, or even of a single search on the topic being done.

Maybe LE has found more evidence of those searches (highly unlikely IMO) which will come out at trial. Right now, it is factually inaccurate to say either "confessed" to anything, other than RH saying Cooper's death was his fault.

And .....the coroner said Cooper did not defecate.

And...I'm saying what Cooper was or was not doing in the car for any of the 5 minutes from CFA to work can only be speculation, other than what RH will testify to at trial , which I somehow doubt will be believed by many or most.

Toddlers can be chirpy and bubbly and chatty in a car, they can fall fast asleep almost instantaneously, especially if they're sleep deprived, they can entertain themselves quite nicely, without making much noise at all, if any, they can be sensitive to a parent's mood and be silent. Or, RH could have said something to Cooper as he strapped him in the car about daddy needing to think or whatever.

So many possibilities, so many possible opinions, but no, no certainty in fact.

 

[PaperDoll]

Hope4more Do you think Ross forgot Cooper that day in the car? I'm curious to where you stand on this and why? :thinking: :crazy:

 

[arkansasmimi]

Harris hot-car murder trial to resume Tuesday — sort of

Bill Rankin The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
12:26 p.m Monday, Oct. 10, 2016 Metro Atlanta / State news

The hot-car murder trial involving Justin Ross Harris will reconvene Tuesday in Brunswick so parties can assess where matters stand with jurors, some of whom may have had homes damaged by Hurricane Matthew.

Cobb County Court Administrator Tom Charron said Monday that it’s highly unlikely any testimony will occur on Tuesday and that court may be in session no more than half a day.

“We are just concerned about the jurors,” he said, adding that court officials were trying to call all of the 12 jurors, plus the four alternate jurors.

The trial began last Monday with opening statements and continued through Wednesday with testimony. Judge Mary Staley Clark then called off court on Thursday and Friday to allow jurors to prepare for the hurricane.

This morning, the Glynn County Board of Commissioners said county offices and courts will reopen on Tuesday.

But there are still power outages throughout the area. Also, of particular concern was damage to the waste water treatment facility on St. Simons Island, the board said. For that reason, a boil-water advisory is in effect for St. Simons.

St. Simons residents have yet to be cleared to reenter the island. So far, only emergency crews and workers needed to assess hazardous materials, security and recovery efforts are being allowed on St. Simons, the county said. http://www.ajc.com/news/local/harri...l-resume-tuesday-sort/BWnGR5qtBqwE1I1wKIB5VI/

 

[arkansasmimi]

I think Kilgore will have a great deal to say about Murphy during trial, as well as Stoddard (did you notice that Kilgore questioned the civilian witnesses specifically about whether or not they had been interviewed by Murphy?)

I watched the pretrial videos again thanks to you. . Yes, Murphy's lack of candor was unimpressive to say the least, and it's pretty obvious to me LE obtained their search warrants with information that bordered on (or crossed the line into) flat out untruths, and for sure, too clever by half semantics.

RH never said he "researched" hot car deaths at all, much less hot car deaths of children, and neither did Leanne say any such thing. Both watched something on TV about hot car deaths, and RH said he clicked on that (trending) video of a vet on the subject. That's it.

And when confronted by Kilgore on that fact, Murphy's best response was that yes, he considered watching TV as "research." Wow.

Totally agree with your assessment.
Yes, there are various questions that Kilgore has asked ea witness. While I realize it has been 2 yrs 3 1/2 months since most gave their orig statements, I find it odd that DA did not appear to go over their statements prior to testimony in court. Most do not even remember their talking to Det Murphy. (iirc most were phone calls that were recorded? or the handful so far).

How do you think this extended time since last Wednesday in testimony will play out? I hope the jury is paying attention & taking good notes. Since it was already going to be a long trial it may not have much effect anyway other than personal concerns at home. Praying that community as a whole for sure. It would be hard being a juror without the trauma of the aftermath of a natural disaster. Even more so in addition to one.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Good quick refresher (although it not totally complete of all testimony by ea witness) from AJC minute by minute as they calling it:

Tues 10/4/16 - Officer Piper/James Hawkins (did CPR)/Anthony Pantano (aka TJ Hawkins boss) http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...tin-ross-harris-trial/F0dBh250pom8LQNVQr49DM/

Wed 10/5/16 - Brad Shumpert CSI Tech (certified the photos/video he took on scene and home), Artiyka Eastland, a witness at the scene, Ashleigh Womack (called 911), The judge brings Eastland back into the courtroom, Dale Hamilton was leaving Subway, Cobb County police officer Lindsay Foglia, Cobb police officer Brett Gallimore, Kilgore asked for mistrial/Judge Staley Clark denied mistrial, but said she’ll allow more discussion about the issue after the attorneys have had time to do some more research. http://www.ajc.com/news/local/minute-minute-the-ross-harris-murder-trial-day/T1DivRhc3uD1mTPvOWVNuL/

*** JMHO they may go over this research of the new evidence law, tomorrow without the Jury there.

ETA: Case Archives (Motions/Documents/Links to Hearings so forth) http://www.courtchatter.com/justin-ross-harris-trial-archive

 

[Hope4More]

Hope4more Do you think Ross forgot Cooper that day in the car? I'm curious to where you stand on this and why? :thinking: :crazy:

I honestly don't know. I haven't seen any evidence (yet, at least) that persuades me RH intended to harm Cooper. IMO it seems that LE initially acted on suspicions raised almost entirely by the very subjective behavior of RH, then Leanne; that, at best, they stretched what RH said as far as they could to get search warrants to go on fishing expedition of RH's phone and computers; and that they used what they found, especially the sexting, to fashion an indictment and case that IMO relies heavily upon very scanty "evidence" of intent, and upon using his unfaithfulness and sexting with minors to tell the jury he was (to simplify) a "bad person," the implicit and unsubtle message being-- and therefore capable of deliberately harming Cooper.

I'd have more confidence the State has a strong case against RH if I hadn't seen for myself that LE (to use an euphemism) was from the beginning less than straightforward with the court about what "evidence" they had, including their (inaccurate) portrayal of what RH said in custody and his emotional state.

Back to the exact question you asked- do I think RH forgot Cooper in that 1 minute or 2 between CFA and the intersection? Possibly, yes, but if so, I don't believe his version of their interaction that morning.

I don't think it's very likely that a dad who took his son to a special daddy~son breakfast (not a rare event, but not routine either), then genuinely and happily interacted with him during the time at CFA, then seat belted him in with special words and kisses, would within 1 or 2 minutes forget entirely he was there, and to not remember him at least by the time he pulled into work.

But I CAN imagine RH forgetting Cooper if taking him to CFA meant little to nothing to him, if the whole morning his mind was completely elsewhere, if he essentially never engaged with Cooper that morning and instead just went through the motions, lied about any special kiss or words, and whose mind, immediately after buckling Cooper in, went entirely to thoughts and daydreams about all the women he was sexting with, simultaneously, in his online harem.

 

[yupikgirl]

I'm a nurse. The smell happens in a couple hours. And that is in air conditioning. Unfortunately I work in a place where death is common.


Oops forgot to quote- nobody specific just reading along and remembering different posts and random thoughts popping in my head.

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[PaperDoll]

I honestly don't know. I haven't seen any evidence (yet, at least) that persuades me RH intended to harm Cooper. IMO it seems that LE initially acted on suspicions raised almost entirely by the very subjective behavior of RH, then Leanne; that, at best, they stretched what RH said as far as they could to get search warrants to go on fishing expedition of RH's phone and computers; and that they used what they found, especially the sexting, to fashion an indictment and case that IMO relies heavily upon very scanty "evidence" of intent, and upon using his unfaithfulness and sexting with minors to tell the jury he was (to simplify) a "bad person," the implicit and unsubtle message being-- and therefore capable of deliberately harming Cooper.

I'd have more confidence the State has a strong case against RH if I hadn't seen for myself that LE (to use an euphemism) was from the beginning less than straightforward with the court about what "evidence" they had, including their (inaccurate) portrayal of what RH said in custody and his emotional state.

Back to the exact question you asked- do I think RH forgot Cooper in that 1 minute or 2 between CFA and the intersection? Possibly, yes, but if so, I don't believe his version of their interaction that morning.

I don't think it's very likely that a dad who took his son to a special daddy~son breakfast (not a rare event, but not routine either), then genuinely and happily interacted with him during the time at CFA, then seat belted him in with special words and kisses, would within 1 or 2 minutes forget entirely he was there, and to not remember him at least by the time he pulled into work.

But I CAN imagine RH forgetting Cooper if taking him to CFA meant little to nothing to him, if the whole morning his mind was completely elsewhere, if he essentially never engaged with Cooper that morning and instead just went through the motions, lied about any special kiss or words, and whose mind, immediately after buckling Cooper in, went entirely to thoughts and daydreams about all the women he was sexting with, simultaneously, in his online harem.

So, what would convince you he actually left Cooper on purpose? What makes you not believe RH's story about that morning? again, curious :blushing:

 

[FinallyRegistered]

So, what would convince you he actually left Cooper on purpose? What makes you not believe RH's story about that morning? again, curious :blushing:

Hope4More will no doubt answer this with her usual wise flare, but, for me, it would take more than a handful of artfully crafted coincidences, which is all I have seen so far. It's possible that it could be proven to me, but to do so, the Prosecution will have to prove that those coincidences were purposeful steps leading to the premeditated death of Cooper.