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Hope4More will no doubt answer this with her usual wise flare, but, for me, it would take more than a handful of artfully crafted coincidences, which is all I have seen so far. It's possible that it could be proven to me, but to do so, the Prosecution will have to prove that those coincidences were purposeful steps leading to the premeditated death of Cooper.

I'm quoting myself to add: What put me on the fence was the eye-witness testimony last week about the lack of smell.

When this first happened, we discussed that the smell was a factor in how everything played out and the discovery in the public place was part of his plan. Now that I know there was no unusual smell I am less certain of premeditation.

If he planned it, he would've made a scene in the corporate parking lot where the cameras are. I don't think he noticed Cooper until he was on his way to the movies.
:fence:
 
Hope4More will no doubt answer this with her usual wise flare, but, for me, it would take more than a handful of artfully crafted coincidences, which is all I have seen so far. It's possible that it could be proven to me, but to do so, the Prosecution will have to prove that those coincidences were purposeful steps leading to the premeditated death of Cooper.


Can anyone really prove he forgot? I'm not sure what the Prosecution can prove besides what they have presented this far. Either you believe Ross is guilty by what's been shown, or you don't. He left his child in the car for 7 or more hours what will it take to show he simply forgot? Everything the Prosecution has presented has been, IMO, shown he's guilty. If people are waiting for a big bomb to drop, it's not going to happen. The Prosecution is showing the big picture and to me that says a lot. Does that mean that every person out there who cheats on their spouse wants to kill their child? No! Everything that Ross did that morning/day adds up to me finding him guilty on all accounts. Yes, that even includes his reaction to all this, his lack of emotions. IMO he was play acting, his grief didn't sound real to me, sounded fake. Again, MOO! Hard to forget your child in less than a few minutes after a big production at CFA. Hard to not notice when backing in the parking space and I do not for one second believe Cooper was asleep at the time of the morning. He was just getting his day started until daddy decides to kill him off :( :( :( sorry, that angers me.
 
I'm quoting myself to add: What put me on the fence was the eye-witness testimony last week about the lack of smell.

When this first happened, we discussed that the smell was a factor in how everything played out and the discovery in the public place was part of his plan. Now that I know there was no unusual smell I am less certain of premeditation.

If he planned it, he would've made a scene in the corporate parking lot where the cameras are. I don't think he noticed Cooper until he was on his way to the movies.
:fence:

I know some people are hung up on the smell, I'm not, the smell isn't a factor to me. Maybe there was smell to some degree but I think most of the people that were trying to help out were focused on Cooper, trying to save him. The shock of seeing a child dead like Cooper, wouldn't make people take note of smell I wouldn't think. I think they would be more focused on the situation at hand. JMO and may not be a correct opinion :crazy:
 
He also said that he "dreaded" how Cooper would look. To dread something is to have pre-knowledge about something. In this case, it's that Cooper was dead and likely looked like he suffered. JMO
 
He also said that he "dreaded" how Cooper would look. To dread something is to have pre-knowledge about something. In this case, it's that Cooper was dead and likely looked like he suffered. JMO

I know Ross said that but it has me confused on why he would say that. Does this mean he and Leanne planned this together? He also told Leanne that Cooper looked peaceful, and to me that was a lie. From the description of how Cooper looked in death, says otherwise, looks like he did suffer and didn't die peacefully :( :(
 
Can anyone really prove he forgot? I'm not sure what the Prosecution can prove besides what they have presented this far. Either you believe Ross is guilty by what's been shown, or you don't. He left his child in the car for 7 or more hours what will it take to show he simply forgot? Everything the Prosecution has presented has been, IMO, shown he's guilty. If people are waiting for a big bomb to drop, it's not going to happen. The Prosecution is showing the big picture and to me that says a lot. Does that mean that every person out there who cheats on their spouse wants to kill their child? No! Everything that Ross did that morning/day adds up to me finding him guilty on all accounts. Yes, that even includes his reaction to all this, his lack of emotions. IMO he was play acting, his grief didn't sound real to me, sounded fake. Again, MOO! Hard to forget your child in less than a few minutes after a big production at CFA. Hard to not notice when backing in the parking space and I do not for one second believe Cooper was asleep at the time of the morning. He was just getting his day started until daddy decides to kill him off :( :( :( sorry, that angers me.

No apologies needed. I want to hear everyone's point of view. And if he planned this, I'm right there with you being angry, I promise.

The only way I can wrap my head around the idea of "forgetting" is not in the act of forgetting itself, but is in the act of honestly thinking a task has been completed. So, for me, if he was going on with his day, ticking off each task of the morning, and really thought he had completed the task of dropping Cooper at daycare, but didn't, then that is neglect and he should be punished.

It's like leaving the house and leaving the coffee pot on. No one intends to burn the house down with a coffee pot on, but it happens and now there are timers on them. There are PSAs about leaving kids in cars and putting the baby bag on the passenger seat. It happens.

I know how horribly crass it sounds to equate Cooper with an appliance and I'm really not trying to be flippant. I am honestly thinking of the steps I go through in the morning and how easily I could miss one of them.

I have to assume that the Prosecution has some strong evidence to present or else they wouldn't have brought the charges. I think that hearing LH's testimony will yank me off the fence, one way or the other.
 
Matou and Paper-

Imo it's entirely possible he told Leanne Cooper looked peaceful to spare her, and that when he said he dreaded how Cooper would look, he was referring to that split second when he realized Cooper was in the car, that he'd been there all day, that he was certainly dead, and that he had suffered, but hadnt yet LOOKED at Cooper because he couldn't SEE him, since the car seat faced to the rear, until he stopped the car and looked into the back seat.
 
No apologies needed. I want to hear everyone's point of view. And if he planned this, I'm right there with you being angry, I promise.

The only way I can wrap my head around the idea of "forgetting" is not in the act of forgetting itself, but is in the act of honestly thinking a task has been completed. So, for me, if he was going on with his day, ticking off each task of the morning, and really thought he had completed the task of dropping Cooper at daycare, but didn't, then that is neglect and he should be punished.

It's like leaving the house and leaving the coffee pot on. No one intends to burn the house down with a coffee pot on, but it happens and now there are timers on them. There are PSAs about leaving kids in cars and putting the baby bag on the passenger seat. It happens.

I know how horribly crass it sounds to equate Cooper with an appliance and I'm really not trying to be flippant. I am honestly thinking of the steps I go through in the morning and how easily I could miss one of them.

I have to assume that the Prosecution has some strong evidence to present or else they wouldn't have brought the charges. I think that hearing LH's testimony will yank me off the fence, one way or the other.

I agree that people forget things, and I'm one of them. I forget names all the time amongst other things. However, I don't forget who I have in my car. I don't forget really important things even if I'm busy with other things that are on my mind. Cooper lived with them, he was their child, I can see forgetting the diaper bag things like that but not THEM after a big production that morning and within a few minutes or less doesn't cut it with me. Then doesn't even think about the fact something wasn't quite right had he actually forgotten for 7 or more hours? It's a big production to take Cooper out of the car seat and into daycare isn't it? He didn't even remember that??
 
I know some people are hung up on the smell, I'm not, the smell isn't a factor to me. Maybe there was smell to some degree but I think most of the people that were trying to help out were focused on Cooper, trying to save him. The shock of seeing a child dead like Cooper, wouldn't make people take note of smell I wouldn't think. I think they would be more focused on the situation at hand. JMO and may not be a correct opinion :crazy:

I hear what you are saying. I want to clarify what my point was. I work in "big corporate" and every single thing I do for 10 hours a day is on camera. If he wanted to put on a show, he would've done it in the parking lot on camera - many cameras. My lack-of-smell point was, he didn't know Cooper was in the car until some point down the road. We had all assumed early on that RH was holding his nose with the windows up trying to get to that shopping center for some unknown reason as part of a plan.
 
Matou and Paper-

Imo it's entirely possible he told Leanne Cooper looked peaceful to spare her, and that when he said he dreaded how Cooper would look, he was referring to that split second when he realized Cooper was in the car, that he'd been there all day, that he was certainly dead, and that he had suffered, but hadnt yet LOOKED at Cooper because he couldn't SEE him, since the car seat faced to the rear, until he stopped the car and looked into the back seat.

Make sense :)
 
So, what would convince you he actually left Cooper on purpose? What makes you not believe RH's story about that morning? again, curious :blushing:


Oh yay, the reply button worked. :)

A brief reply- I think I explained that I don't believe RH's story of being an attentive, loving father to Cooper THAT MORNING lines up with forgetting him altogether a minute or two afterwards.

So , (just logic) : either RH didn't forget him, which means he killed Cooper on purpose, or, RH was not the slightest bit attentive or tuned in to Cooper that AM, so forgetting him took little effort, and isn't even remarkable in and of itself, except of course, in that situation, forgetting resulted in Cooper's death, and the forgetting was nothing less than negligence, the degree of which is yet to be determined--that is, if the jury doesn't just go with malice murder and slam those prison doors shut on RH for life, without taking an overly long time parsing out just how negligent one must one be to be considered criminally negligent.

What evidence would convince me of premeditation? It would go a long long way to hear ACTUAL evidence that RH actively did searches, within even 2 weeks of Cooper's death , about children, not animals, dying in hot cars.

More subjectively, if the defense 's star witness Leanne doesn't provide a credible narrative on the stand (not talking displays of emotion) , I have a feeling my hinky alarm is going to go off, but absent the search evidence or the like, that alarm likely will just keep blaring, but less and less loudly as this trial fades away in my less than stellar memory. ;)
 
I hear what you are saying. I want to clarify what my point was. I work in "big corporate" and every single thing I do for 10 hours a day is on camera. If he wanted to put on a show, he would've done it in the parking lot on camera - many cameras. My lack-of-smell point was, he didn't know Cooper was in the car until some point down the road. We had all assumed early on that RH was holding his nose with the windows up trying to get to that shopping center for some unknown reason as part of a plan.

This is another reason I find him guilty, finding a place where people are so he can act out his drama. :tantrum:

For the record, and not that anyone cares :blushing: but there is not one ounce of pity in me for Ross, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO!!!! :behindbar
 
Oh yay, the reply button worked. :)

A brief reply- I think I explained that I don't believe RH's story of being an attentive, loving father to Cooper THAT MORNING lines up with forgetting him altogether a minute or two afterwards.

So , (just logic) : either RH didn't forget him, which means he killed Cooper on purpose, or, RH was not the slightest bit attentive or tuned in to Cooper that AM, so forgetting him took little effort, and isn't even remarkable in and of itself, except of course, in that situation, forgetting resulted in Cooper's death, and the forgetting was nothing less than negligence, the degree of which to be determined--that is, if the jury doesn't just go with malice murder and slam those prison doors shut on RH for life, without taking an overly long time parsing out just how negligent must one be to be considered criminally negligent.

What evidence would convince me of premeditation? It would go a long long way to hear ACTUAL evidence that RH actively did searches, within even 2 weeks of Cooper's death , about children, not animals, dying in hot cars.

More subjectively, if the defense 's star witness Leanne doesn't provide a credible narrative on the stand (not talking displays of emotion) , I have a feeling my hinky alarm is going to go off, but absent the search evidence or the like, that alarm likely will just keep blaring, but less and less loudly as this trial fades away in my less than stellar memory. ;)

BBM: THANK YOU! :blowkiss:

I think Leanne may paint him to be a good dad, and he may have been, but something turned and it was, IMO, he wanted to pursue his "other life" and Cooper was in the way :( Bless his heart, I'm saddened :( He didn't deserve that..
 
i am not a fan of Ross Harris , totally creeped by all his sexting, naked picture stuff and underage girls. That said I have a question. Is there any difference in 1. Ross forgot that Cooper was in the car or 2. Ross did not think Cooper was in the car because in his mind he had dropped him at daycare. Does that make sense what I am asking, trying to get my head around my own question.
 
Glycerine...the reply isn't working, but this:

Neither parent "admitted" to researching hot car deaths. That did not happen. LE admitted in a court of law, when being questioned by the defense in a pretrial hearing, that neither said they had "researched" any kind of hot car deaths, much less child's hot car deaths, much less about temps on the car and how long. NONE of that is accurate, or at least, it wasn't anything either "confessed" to, AND , LE had no evidence at that time of "research" being done, or even of a single search on the topic being done.

And you believe that because the defense lawyer tells you to? They both admitted it during sworn statements, at least that's what every article I've read so far states.

Maybe LE has found more evidence of those searches (highly unlikely IMO) which will come out at trial. Right now, it is factually inaccurate to say either "confessed" to anything, other than RH saying Cooper's death was his fault.

And you know this...how? You are speculating just like I was, nothing more. Why would LE tell the media "this is what they told us" if it was not accurate? They know all of it is public record and everything they do will be scrutinized, especially given the current situation with police violence and misconduct across the country. I guess we just have to wait and see.

And .....the coroner said Cooper did not defecate.
Was this in the autopsy report? That's something I just cannot read. Regardless, you can't convince me even if the kid did nothing but soak his diaper, Ross STILL should have smelled something with the car being closed up all day for SEVEN HOURS.

And...I'm saying what Cooper was or was not doing in the car for any of the 5 minutes from CFA to work can only be speculation, other than what RH will testify to at trial , which I somehow doubt will be believed by many or most.

I think it's safe to say any reasonable person would assume the child is going to continue the behavior he was displaying in the restaurant.

Toddlers can be chirpy and bubbly and chatty in a car, they can fall fast asleep almost instantaneously, especially if they're sleep deprived, they can entertain themselves quite nicely, without making much noise at all, if any, they can be sensitive to a parent's mood and be silent. Or, RH could have said something to Cooper as he strapped him in the car about daddy needing to think or whatever.

Again, going on off my own personal experience here. I have yet to see any two year old, ON HIS OR HER WAY TO SCHOOL lets not forget, that wouldn't be laughing and excited. So you are saying Cooper was bubbly and chatty in the restaurant, then was instantly silent or asleep as soon as they hit the car?

And what about the lack of any real grief? I know everyone processes it differently, but it just didn't seem genuine to me. If that was my son laying on the ground they would have had to drag me away. You want to see what real grief looks like? Check out the video of Pam Hobbs when she was told her son was dead, West Memphis Three case. Again, I know everyone is different, but when comparing their reactions it presents a pretty stark contrast.

Honestly I think you are reaching, but maybe the best thing would be to agree to disagree and move on. :)
 
I'm quoting myself to add: What put me on the fence was the eye-witness testimony last week about the lack of smell.

When this first happened, we discussed that the smell was a factor in how everything played out and the discovery in the public place was part of his plan. Now that I know there was no unusual smell I am less certain of premeditation.

When my son wakes up in the morning with a full diaper he reeks of urine, it's a pretty normal thing. Combine that with a car closed up all day and you'd have to smell something when you got in the car. Hell my twin eighteen year olds leave socks and drinks in my backseat and I smell it as soon as I get in.

If he planned it, he would've made a scene in the corporate parking lot where the cameras are. I don't think he noticed Cooper until he was on his way to the movies.
:fence:

Not if he didn't want it happening anywhere near his place of employment. That's company property, and from what I've read this guy seemed to REALLY enjoy his job, I mean how many people can say they are getting paid to sext underage girls?
 
I can't remember but did JH open all his windows in the car as he got in? I think there would of been a smell. I wonder when JH decided to leave Cooper in the car. That morning, the night before or sometime else.
 
I'm reading a lot of comments about the smell or lack thereof. Has anyone spent any time doing research on the subject? Perhaps a quick google search on the initial stage of decomposition for the first 24 to 72 hours after death. I think this might be helpful to many. If you find any scientific information that supports a strong odor during the initial stage of decomp., I would like to read it. :)
 
And you believe that because the defense lawyer tells you to? They both admitted it during sworn statements, at least that's what every article I've read so far states.



And you know this...how? You are speculating just like I was, nothing more. Why would LE tell the media "this is what they told us" if it was not accurate? They know all of it is public record and everything they do will be scrutinized, especially given the current situation with police violence and misconduct across the country. I guess we just have to wait and see.


Was this in the autopsy report? That's something I just cannot read. Regardless, you can't convince me even if the kid did nothing but soak his diaper, Ross STILL should have smelled something with the car being closed up all day for SEVEN HOURS.



I think it's safe to say any reasonable person would assume the child is going to continue the behavior he was displaying in the restaurant.



Again, going on off my own personal experience here. I have yet to see any two year old, ON HIS OR HER WAY TO SCHOOL lets not forget, that wouldn't be laughing and excited. So you are saying Cooper was bubbly and chatty in the restaurant, then was instantly silent or asleep as soon as they hit the car?

And what about the lack of any real grief? I know everyone processes it differently, but it just didn't seem genuine to me. If that was my son laying on the ground they would have had to drag me away. You want to see what real grief looks like? Check out the video of Pam Hobbs when she was told her son was dead, West Memphis Three case. Again, I know everyone is different, but when comparing their reactions it presents a pretty stark contrast.

Honestly I think you are reaching, but maybe the best thing would be to agree to disagree and move on. :)


Glycerine-- how do I know that neither parent " admitted to " or "confessed" they had searched (LE's original claim) or even "researched" (LE backtracking on original claim, IMO, in 2015 hearing) hot car deaths?

Because I watched and rewatched the 2015 pretrial hearing (and read/watched other pretrial proceedings/info).

Again. During that hearing, the defense questioned LE in a court of law, under oath, and LE (Murphy) answered what exactly had been the basis for LE's claims RH and Leanne had conducted the SEARCHES he had earlier claimed they had, and had used as the primary grounds to obtain search warrants for computers and phones.

I've already posted what was testified to by Murphy. What I posted about his testimony was not my speculation. If you watch those proceedings you can hear his testimony for yourself.

Personally, I never rely upon the media to get the facts right about virtually anything, much less in stories like this, when what imo media tends to do is over dramatize, under research, and to prioritize ratings/readership over accuracy. And in any case, I prefer to analyze original source material myself rather than to swallow anyone else's narrative wholesale, or even in part.

Much of any case can only be a matter of speculation, because some facts will never be known, and much of the details of any case can and are disputable and subject to interpretation.

But then there are also facts, and for me facts are facts are facts. LE testified . He said what he said. There it is on video (available on YouTube, btw, if you haven't already seen the links to it a few posts ago).

Did Murphy lie to obtain those search warrants? Or just stretch the truth? Was LE justified in doing whatever they had to do to obtain the warrants, or was what they did unacceptable, a crossing of ethical lines?

Can watching something on TV be considered a search or even " research"? If one is on a unrelated webpage and clicks on a link to a video about whatever, is that considered a search or even "research?"

Imo those are questions that are least debatable, and I'm pretty darn sure some of those exact questions WILL be debated at trial, because Kilgore signalled in his opening that undermining LE's credibility will be central to RH's defense.

----

(More generally- to each his or her own, but my interest in trials is almost always primarily about the legal process itself, not about the underlying alleged crime. Usually I don't try to imagine even once what happened during the crime itself, much less set about dissecting the medical or physical details.

As a result, whatever opinion I have about guilt or innocence going into trial typically isn't fixed, is subject to change and drastic modification, multiple times, and isn't particularly important , even to myself, lol.

The exercise I appreciate most is to try to put myself in the jury's position. The defendant is to be presumed innocent, the State has the burden of proof to convince me otherwise, and the defense has some 'splaining to do....
 
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