The SODDI Defense (Some Other Dude Did It)...If not KC, who?

[Roze]

Vultures are usually the first in after the blowflies, I believe.

Indeed they are. I suppose I could start naming them but we are all familiar with the players.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Not gonna bring down any long post but GA talked about the stain in his interview. He said it was about the size of a basket ball and he even got close for a good smell. The way he was talking---wasn't a stain that was already there. This stain is where KC laid Baby Caylee until she learned that a baby's body starts to "rot" and "smells".

 

[countzero]

Not gonna bring down any long post but GA talked about the stain in his interview. He said it was about the size of a basket ball and he even got close for a good smell. The way he was talking---wasn't a stain that was already there. This stain is where KC laid Baby Caylee until she learned that a baby's body starts to "rot" and "smells".

GA was the one who consistently kept his vehicles clean and operating properly. He was obsessed with doing this. He knew and told LE the stain was new.

 

[Gaia713]

Not only did they not track all the numbers she called during the crucial time period they even listed them incorrectly, one of may such “mistakes”. Below is page 2571, hand numbered, showing the calls for the midnight hour of June 18 with who they assign the numbers too. These four calls are one place it looks to me like she is trying to find someone. I won't go into all of why here because I've already stated my thoughts in the June 17-20 thread, IIRC. The calls where there is a discrepancy are the ones given to Broadway Ristorante, following the two calls to two different Papa John's. Not only is this not who she tried to call, the numbers don't even match the actual cell records. How they could make this kind of a mistake, is beyond me, even with Mercury Rx. They are either completely irresponsible, never rechecking their work or they didn't want the numbers to be shown here because it didn't fit with their path. Also below is an image of the actual numbers called from the cell records. I hope the image quality comes through clear enough on both so you can see the numbers to compare.

The actual numbers she tried to call after Papa Johns are two different land lines, not business. The one with 447 exchange is through Florida Digital Network, Orlando, first name Lashida (known thanks to Ibeyounger). The 478 exchange is also a landline through Flkorida Digital Network but in Winter Park. She also called a number ending 9999 on 6/29. This one is a Cingular Cell in Kissimee and apparently has two past addresses connected to it in Lake Worth.

There is also a mysterious number similar to these, ending 9899 instead of 9999 that she called at 5:20 pm on 6/17, the same time of day she told LE she went to pick up Caylee and she was no where to be found, but the day after she finally settled on. Since it is the right time of day LE should have surely tracked this number down. Actually, every number she called should have been thoroughly investigated. All of these very similar numbers lead me to believe she was trying to find someone, trying different exchanges. It would be a number either on the black jack or held in her memory rather than on her phone. If she had a job that wasn't above board she wouldn't keep the names and numbers on her phone, most likely, because her parents might see.



I don't believe we can give Casey credit for stealing 45,000. If, in fact, this huge unexpected debt happened, it was more likely due to the other rumor being true, a scam that George was involved in. I don't believe there is any way that Cindy would allow that kind of amount to build up without putting a stop to it long before it reached that amount. She didn't have enough income to close her eyes to it. If the stain was tested, they never revealed the results. One statement said it was there when Lee had the car. Who of us doesn't have a stain?

I will repeat again, the FBI lab document does not give any detail as to how they come to the conclusion there is sign of decomp on the hair. There is no mention of banding or anything else. As for the teeth, I went to wiki to double check my facts and there are full roots on the primary teeth. The only ones that may still have a little ways to go are the 2nd molar and canine roots. The adult teeth would not be interfering yet to dissolve the roots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth_development the crown of the first adult teeth aren't even developed until 4-5 years. Also, if Faye thrashed her around enough to dislodge the teeth the skull certainly wouldn't be sitting upright and so close to the bag. Her bones weren't scattered that far either, most within 6'.

The woman's name is Goode. It is written about on pdf pg 4 of the document that also contains the chart with the Anthony's and Lazarro's receipt amounts. It has a scan date of April 6 so it was in the more recent docs. I haven't taken the time to wade through all of the tips to find the original call. As I said, this one is the most iffy. Eye witness accounts often have the dates or other details wrong. But, if she had tried to register for services, if it were here, one thing they would require is the parent having a job, revealing the father to make sure he is paying support too. Both of these are things that might have kept her from following through or being lodged into the computer system.



I have already addressed one place where she seems to be searching for someone. There are others. Since Arpad Vass said in the preliminary report that there was also decomposing pizza in the trunk that may have contributed to the odor, then later retracted that in the 2nd preliminary report, this whole thing is highly suspect. Notice he starts his findings with stating that Melich sent him the carpet sample, “in reference to reseach”, they had been performing. Clearly this isn't yet proven science, tested and vetted. The chart on pg. 2515 says, Yes, chloroform was found and that it was “unusually high”. But it is incorrect that he said it could not have come from an incidental source. In fact he ends the report by saying the source may not have been in the trunk at the time. We know the garbage had been removed. The control carpet sample also had some chloroform. The studies that were done to determine the information they base these tests on was done primarily with animal bones, rather than flesh so that right there makes this questionable science. Also, while chloroform is not a common ingredient in cleaning products, as he states, that doesn't mean that there are no sources available. Also notice his bolded words on pg. 2527 that say it “...could be of human origin.”



This remains to be seen. I'm sure at best the dog would have a 95% rate, at worst, maybe 25%. It would also need to be shown that the dog never panted, according to what I am reading because they need to smell long and deep, normally, not under stress from heat. Even the best dog won't perform well under Florida summer conditions.

Trixi, she spent a great deal between gas and phone bills alone. Then friends said she often paid her way and theirs in restaurant.

In reply to all those people smelling “death” in the trunk, that won't hold water either. Neither George, Tony or the lady at the Amscott that got close to the car smelled anything. The scent doesn't grow it dissipates. The smell was very strong 2 weeks later when the car was picked up. That only leaves the garbage in the trunk to account for the smell. It couldn't suddenly show up a month after Caylee went missing. That is easy for the defense to destroy. I'm really surprised anyone is running with it after also reading the statement from Amscott. That smell wasn't there on the 28th or several days before when Tony and George stood at the corner of her trunk.

I worked for a pizza company for 2 years and I can ASSURE you that cooked pizza does NOT decompose. It turns to leather. Having dealt with multiple partial pizzas dumpoed ina dumopster with other foods, there was NEVER any decomposition of pizza in any way shape or form. And temperatures where are live are comparable to Florida. I suggest you leave a pizza sitting out in a warm house. You can put new soles on your shoes with old pizza. It's made with preserved meats so decomposition is impossible. Maggots also are not attracted to it.

 

[Gaia713]

George,[/b] Tony or the lady at the Amscott that got close to the car smelled anything. The scent doesn't grow it dissipates. The smell was very strong 2 weeks later when the car was picked up. That only leaves the garbage in the trunk to account for the smell. It couldn't suddenly show up a month after Caylee went missing. That is easy for the defense to destroy. I'm really surprised anyone is running with it after also reading the statement from Amscott. That smell wasn't there on the 28th or several days before when Tony and George stood at the corner of her trunk.[/QUOTE

This could be a little misleading. If the bag was still in the trunk--triple bagged as NG always tells us---the odor may not have been very noticeable. It's while moving it out of the trunk--probably after the 24th when GA tried to get the gas cans----that the bag probably tore or leaked the fluids which caused the odor. JMO

George clearly SAYS in an interview that he smelled the smell of decomposition. He also adds that as a former dective he is familiar with that smell. The towyard owner said it smelled exactly like a vehicle he had on the yard that contained a man who had committed suicide 5 days prior. I don't believe the lady at Amscott ever got CLOSE to the car. She just remembered seeing it there for an extended period of time. We do not know how close Tony got to the car either. Lee commented on the smell also. Cindy commented on the car smelling tliek there'd been a DEAD BODY in the damn car. George had to drive it home with ALL the windows open because of the smell. Please stop distorting the facts. Rotting garbage does not form putricene or cadavercene which are the two chemicals that DECOMPOSING HUMAN FLESH produce. It is these two chemicals that cadaver dogs are trained to alert on. (Pardon my spelling of the two products).

The odor does not dissipate but permeates everything around it. I know a lady who was given a plastic plant that had been in the apartment of a man who had committed suicide. She tried EVERYTHING and couldn't get the smell out of the plant or her apartment. It takes industrial strength chemicals to get rid of the smell. The smell would remain in the car even after the body was removed.

 

[Gaia713]

If you do a search of all my posts you'll find my reasoning that has been shared to date. Several days ago I received persmission from Ms. Enwere, an anthropologist and author of the one study, to share her email response to me so here is our exchange:

Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:22:16 PM
Subject: Question regarding scavengers and remains
Dear Ms. Enwere,

I read, with fascination your thesis entitled, "Taphonomy of Child-sized Remains in Shallow Grave and Surface Deposit Scenarios". After reading this I thought you may be the perfect person to answer a question I have. I have been reading the police reports regarding the skeletal dispersion of the remains of Caylee Anthony, nearly 3 years old, found last December 11, in Orlando, Florida. She was possibly there during the time of Hurricane Faye in late August. She was placed on slightly sloping ground, on the high side of where the other bones were scattered to. Her skull was right next to the bags along with the arm bones, the neck ribbing and appliqued lettering from a top, toddler pull up diaper and shorts lying nearby. It appears the pullup wasn't all in one piece but the shorts were, even still having the button in place. The area is very dense with plant life. About 6" downhill, 6' away were her femurs and ilium. There was no trauma to the bones noted. The bags were still tied closed but there was a hole toward the bottom side.

My question is, if an animal is responsible for moving the largest and heaviest bones in the body, away from the resting place, would the clothing be torn off and then the bones drug away or is it more likely the child didn't have clothing on when she was placed there. Would scavengers be more likely to tear up the shirt to get at the body than the shorts? It makes no sense to me that the largest bones floated away during the flooding, leaving many of the smaller bones in the original location, and the skull even sitting upright on the ground, so I assume an animal, perhaps a fox must have moved some of them. It also doesn't seem likely that the clothing would be on the body, the shirt torn up, body of it missing and the shorts untorn.

I hope you don't mind me asking this question and thank you for your time.

Kind Regards,
Connie

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:37:00 AM
Subject: RE: Question regarding scavengers and remains

I apologize for taking so long to respond. I've been very busy with work and was out of town, also. I'm not too familiar with the Caylee Anthony case and I am not familiar with the type of scavengers that inhabit the area where she was found. In my research, I noticed that the blankets on the pigs were not torn off or damaged, but it appeared that during decomposition and bloating, the blankets unraveled. This led to the remains being more accessible for the vultures and whatever other scavengers were involved. I was not able to videotape my experiment, so I am not sure what role foxes or raccoons may have played in the displacement of the remains. I did notice that vertebrae and ribs for the most part remained in the grave, while the larger bones were displaced further away. My only guess is that feeding took place on the meatiest parts of the body (abdomen and chest) in situ, leaving the majority of the ribs and vertebrae in the grave. As far as why the skulls and extremities were dragged to other locations--I could only guess that was due to possibly "leftover" scavenging. These skeletal elements would have easily been disarticulated from the body during the primary feeding.

I too question whether Caylee had on clothes in the first place, because what I noticed in my experiment was that the vultures were not that aggressive to remove the blanket. It was only when a good amount of the body was exposed did they start feeding.

I don't know if I've answered your questions or given you more questions to ask, but I hope I helped in some way!

Paulyann

There is also some support for my thoughts here David S is a lab technician, from the UK, I believe and Anthrogirl is an antrhropoligist. I'm not sure about the others that participated.

Vultures are usually the first in after the blowflies, I believe.

In Kronk's first 911call, he clearly says that the bag was partially under water. Blowflies don't usually swim to their victims.

 

[Gaia713]

Here is why a Sex Offender does not fly with me in this case, either through KC handing her baby over, or one getting the little girl without KC"s knowledge. Please feel free to challenge these points, as I am quite interested why this would ever be a viable defense:

1. KC's fear of sitting at the window with Annie, callling 911 for the protestors, etc. If Caylee was kidnapped without KC's knowledge, KC's self-preservation would kick in and she would TELL someone, if for no other reason than to protect herself from this person coming back. How did she know that he wouldn't come back for her?

2. How did KC know that the SO would KILL her daughter or not kill her daughter? There was no guarantee that her daughter would not survive the abduction - therefore, she would not be "free" once her daughter returned, perhaps less than perfect, perhaps scarred for life.

3. KC and the gas can, IE trying to retrieve her car from Amscott. If this IS true, and KC's intentions were to go fill the car and remove it from Amscott, this DOES NOT make her innocent. It may mean that she accidentally ran out of gas driving around trying to look for a suitable place to dump her daughter's body and because of that ended up running out of gas - the car being at the Amscott, and NOT being towed immediately messed up her plans somewhat. She realized it may sit there and she would be busted - so she made plans to retrieve it - but ALAS - finally it was towed - another problem solved.

4. The tampered gas indicator - there wasn't anything wrong with it. The police verified this in a report. KC was LYING about there beng a problem because she needed a reason (other than no money) that she kept running out of gas.

5. Partying in the Open - if SO was involved, KC would not show NO FEAR, NO ANXIETY and PARTY like it was 1999. If for no other reason than #1 mentioned above, self-preservation.

6. KC's own STORIES (read STORIES, multiple) about ZFG, waiting for her at the apartment, when she was clearly at Blockbuster during this time (proven with images), looking for her at various places (Target surveillance shows KC SHOPPING, not SEARCHING), JCPEnney (why JCPENNEY in the script - because KC had a credit card for there, that's why!!!)

7. The lie about talking to baby Caylee on July 15th at noon. We know this did not happen. We know this is a lie. We know baby Caylee was ALREADY dead at this point - but how could KC know that if there was someone else involved????????? KC knew that she did not talk with her child that day - but how could she know that the SO wouldn't drop the baby off somewhere, or that the baby was not ALREADY dropped off somewhere and thus would never have called her - SHE TOLD THIS LIE to not only stall for time, but to detract from the real timeline of events.

I don't think Casey can EVER tell the truth about amuthing.

 

[whiteangora]

I worked for a pizza company for 2 years and I can ASSURE you that cooked pizza does NOT decompose. It turns to leather. Having dealt with multiple partial pizzas dumpoed ina dumopster with other foods, there was NEVER any decomposition of pizza in any way shape or form. And temperatures where are live are comparable to Florida. I suggest you leave a pizza sitting out in a warm house. You can put new soles on your shoes with old pizza. It's made with preserved meats so decomposition is impossible. Maggots also are not attracted to it.

I am very grateful that I am not just beginning to follow this case because if I was, I would be soooo confuzzled. Decomposing pizzas? Good grief! Many of us did GA's silly experiment, I ended up with petrified pizza in 2 days when left in the hot car trunk.
Also, this constant bashing of LE, the Detectives, the Scientists,
etc is really beginning to get old and tiring.

 

[Seebra]

I am very grateful that I am not just beginning to follow this case because if I was, I would be soooo confuzzled. Decomposing pizzas? Good grief! Many of us did GA's silly experiment, I ended up with petrified pizza in 2 days when left in the hot car trunk.
Also, this constant bashing of LE, the Detectives, the Scientists,
etc is really beginning to get old and tiring.

LOL - it amazes me, and my hubby thought I was crazy, but did the experiment myself, and Gaia was correct - no "decomposing" odor whatsoever - just a withering piece of dried-out pizza - no maggots - and mine was not in a bag but just placed in an old car we had sitting outside.

 

[Balthazar]

I bet he drives a van with dark windows too.
Now where is it he found Caylee while he was cruising and when was this? Where was KC?

He might have seen Caylee in her front yard with any of the family and therefore knew where she lived. That is a common way for SO's who are not known to the family to find their victim. They cruise around and look for kids in various neighborhoods. It would have been easy for him to go in back of the Anthony house through the vacant lot and look over or possibly through the fence and whenever he wanted to, unobserved by others. Even in the daytime, he would be able to do this unobserved.

 

[Seebra]

He might have seen Caylee in her front yard with any of the family and therefore knew where she lived. That is a common way for SO's who are not known to the family to find their victim. They cruise around and look for kids in various neighborhoods. It would have been easy for him to go in back of the Anthony house through the vacant lot and look over or possibly through the fence and whenever he wanted to, unobserved by others. Even in the daytime, he would be able to do this unobserved.

Just curious - did he also follow KC and Caylee to ZFG and when KC dropped her daughter off with the nanny, did he wait until the nanny emptied out the vacant apartment, left Caylee alone and tended to Zachary to make his move?

 

[whiteangora]

Clothing that doesn't appear to have been on the body when she died.
How could clothing appear to be on the body when there was NO body? All that was left of little Caylee was her skull and her tiny bones scattered everywhere.

Teeth out of the skull even though they should have been rooted into the jaw still in place on the skull. If Faye thrashed it around enough to remove them, the skull wouldn't be sitting so neatly upright, looking back to the intersection, with the mandible still in place with the tape.
Caylee's teeth could have very easily been knocked out during the violent winds, flooding and movement of the water. As for the skull "sitting neatly upright" as you say.........have you ever seen some homes after a violent storm? Sometimes everything is gone except for one small item and it is found to be still in it's exact location and position. Some things are just not explainable.

A woman that says she saw her and Caylee in June applying for government subsidized housing and the children's program with an Hispanic woman that claimed to be the grandmother.

Link please? (red text mine)

 

[Balthazar]

Your post was excellent and I am going to add this if you don't mind.

Other than Christine's young child, Caylee had no playmates. The A clan kept her completely isolated from other children's contact on a regular basis. She never attended any type of pre-school, organized play groups or church sunday school. She evidently had little to none of interaction with toddlers her age. Did Caylee even get to go trick or treating, did she go to Easter egg hunts, or visit Santa?

Other than KC hauling Caylee around with her when it was convenient to KC so KC got attention that Caylee garnered, where and when did a pedophile get the time and opportunity to "hookup" with a toddler? From what I have read, pedophiles develop an on going relationship with the child and family to gain trust. Other than seeing KC's friends on an ad-hoc basis, just who fits into this scenario? No one that I have read any depos on, or have heard any names being referenced from KC's former associates/friends. Strangers just aren't part of KC's lifestyle. She clung like Saran Wrap to her buddies, to rip them off ... yada, yada, yada.

Actually, a pedophile developing an ongoing relationship is true in many of the cases. Unfortunately, in other cases the child is abducted from the home, a park, store or other location before being molested and murdered.

 

[whiteangora]

Actually, a pedophile developing an ongoing relationship is true in many of the cases. Unfortunately, in other cases the child is abducted from the home, a park, store or other location before being molested and murdered.

There is nothing to make anyone think a SO was involved in Caylee's murder. There is overwhelming evidence that points to Casey Anthony, no one else is being looked at or looked for.

 

[countzero]

Actually, a pedophile developing an ongoing relationship is true in many of the cases. Unfortunately, in other cases the child is abducted from the home, a park, store or other location before being molested and murdered.

Again, I am repeating myself. The timeline, pings and texts just don't support this. Unless ............ you are saying that a SO cruised down Hopespring Dr, saw Caylee, distracted which ever adult was in the A home, took off with Caylee, taking her blanket, removing trashbags and laundry bags from the garage AND NO ONE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR HOME NOTICED??????

Sorry to shout but if this happened shouting is important.

Did I miss anything? Oops, I did miss the duct tape and heart stickers the SO also removed from the A house when he/she also was taking Caylee.

 

[Balthazar]

Actually these scenarios are better than the defense, I believe, Casey's team might end up using...ie; Jesse, Ricardo or Amy = Zanny (the real kidnapper).

As for the money question...Casey did not steal from old friends from what we have heard, but she was stealing from family. Shirley says in her interview that the $45,000 Cindy "lost" was due to Casey. Now we don't know if Casey took all of that money, but my feeling is she did take a LOT. This was an ongoing problem. I don't put it past Casey to have engaged in less than respectable employment ventures, but we just have not heard from anyone supporting this. With the world wide attention this case has attracted, I think we would have heard from someone.

If someone else had taken Caylee and murdered her why was there the smell of decomposition, Caylee's hair with post mortem banding, and stain in the trunk of Casey's car ? We have no evidence of this car being in the possession of anyone, but Casey. Items from the Anthony HOME were found with the remains, items that were used to dispose of the body, how would this fit w/ the SODDI defense ?

I can not speak to the issue of the teeth being seperate from the remains except to say that Caylee's baby teeth may have been in the beginning stages of seperation, maybe a slight weakness that enabled seperation in the elements...6 months of rain and weather does a lot to a body, bones were found far away from the area the skull was found in, wouldn't it be possible for teeth to be scattered as well ?

I have not heard about anyone seeing Casey and Caylee applying for Gov't assistance.

At age 2.5 the baby teeth have just come in completely. They are as firmly rooted in the skull as adult teeth. Teeth are primarily held in by bone and then only secondarily by gums. Baby teeth are as strong as adult teeth. The roots of baby teeth don't begin to dissolve until around age 5 or 6. That the teeth are separate from the skull is significant. I believe this indicates some sort of trauma to the mouth and that the tape was placed there for that reason.

 

[Searchfortruth]

At age 2.5 the baby teeth have just come in completely. They are as firmly rooted in the skull as adult teeth. Teeth are primarily held in by bone and then only secondarily by gums. Baby teeth are as strong as adult teeth. The roots of baby teeth don't begin to dissolve until around age 5 or 6. That the teeth are separate from the skull is significant. I believe this indicates some sort of trauma to the mouth and that the tape was placed there for that reason.

"Caylee Anthony's death has been ruled a homicide, but Dr. G did note that there was no trauma noted. The cause of death is unknown at this time and toxicology results are pending."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1319264/dr_g_identifies_remains_as_caylee_anthonys.html

 

[Gaia713]

Actually, a pedophile developing an ongoing relationship is true in many of the cases. Unfortunately, in other cases the child is abducted from the home, a park, store or other location before being molested and murdered.

I seriously doubt that Caylee was allowed out front. The back yard seems like it was designed just for Caylee. A SO is a far-fetched SODDI imo.

 

[Gaia713]

At age 2.5 the baby teeth have just come in completely. They are as firmly rooted in the skull as adult teeth. Teeth are primarily held in by bone and then only secondarily by gums. Baby teeth are as strong as adult teeth. The roots of baby teeth don't begin to dissolve until around age 5 or 6. That the teeth are separate from the skull is significant. I believe this indicates some sort of trauma to the mouth and that the tape was placed there for that reason.

That may be the average, but my youngest lost her first tooth at 3 yrs old. It is possible. And it happened at a party at McDonalds where it was observed by a pediatrician who said it DOES happen, it's just not the norm. Xrays of children at that age will show the adult teeth forming, also, as a dentist told me my eldest had no canine baby teeth and xrays showed he had no adult canines also. Every child is different.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I seriously doubt that Caylee was allowed out front. The back yard seems like it was designed just for Caylee. A SO is a far-fetched SODDI imo.

And, if there was even a small amount of evidence pointing to a SO's involvement in the disappearance and murder, the Anthony family, Casey and her defense attorney's would be screaming it from the courthouse steps.