The SODDI Defense (Some Other Dude Did It)...If not KC, who?

[Gaia713]

Link please? (red text mine)

I would like to see that link also. IT is well documented that witnesses who do NOT know the person are frequently wrong. In fact, most cases that are overturned are overturned because of witness testimony that is proven wrong by DNA (circumstantial evidence.)

 

[KenoshaKid]

At age 2.5 the baby teeth have just come in completely. They are as firmly rooted in the skull as adult teeth. Teeth are primarily held in by bone and then only secondarily by gums. Baby teeth are as strong as adult teeth. The roots of baby teeth don't begin to dissolve until around age 5 or 6. That the teeth are separate from the skull is significant. I believe this indicates some sort of trauma to the mouth and that the tape was placed there for that reason.

But the Medical Examiner didn't mention any antemortem trauma?

 

[Seebra]

And, if there was even a small amount of evidence pointing to a SO's involvement in the disappearance and murder, the Anthony family, Casey and her defense attorney's would be screaming it from the courthouse steps.

Absofriggin'-lutely.

The fact is that CA and GA and even KC, who is now rotting in jail, WOULD NOT LET KC REMAIN IN JAIL if there was an inkling of proof or even speculation that an SO did this to this child.

Not only that, but they would be SCREAMING about the on the loose SO, to ensure that other children are not harmed by this person.

 

[Gaia713]

If you do a search of all my posts you'll find my reasoning that has been shared to date. Several days ago I received persmission from Ms. Enwere, an anthropologist and author of the one study, to share her email response to me so here is our exchange:

Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:22:16 PM
Subject: Question regarding scavengers and remains
Dear Ms. Enwere,

I read, with fascination your thesis entitled, "Taphonomy of Child-sized Remains in Shallow Grave and Surface Deposit Scenarios". After reading this I thought you may be the perfect person to answer a question I have. I have been reading the police reports regarding the skeletal dispersion of the remains of Caylee Anthony, nearly 3 years old, found last December 11, in Orlando, Florida. She was possibly there during the time of Hurricane Faye in late August. She was placed on slightly sloping ground, on the high side of where the other bones were scattered to. Her skull was right next to the bags along with the arm bones, the neck ribbing and appliqued lettering from a top, toddler pull up diaper and shorts lying nearby. It appears the pullup wasn't all in one piece but the shorts were, even still having the button in place. The area is very dense with plant life. About 6" downhill, 6' away were her femurs and ilium. There was no trauma to the bones noted. The bags were still tied closed but there was a hole toward the bottom side.

My question is, if an animal is responsible for moving the largest and heaviest bones in the body, away from the resting place, would the clothing be torn off and then the bones drug away or is it more likely the child didn't have clothing on when she was placed there. Would scavengers be more likely to tear up the shirt to get at the body than the shorts? It makes no sense to me that the largest bones floated away during the flooding, leaving many of the smaller bones in the original location, and the skull even sitting upright on the ground, so I assume an animal, perhaps a fox must have moved some of them. It also doesn't seem likely that the clothing would be on the body, the shirt torn up, body of it missing and the shorts untorn.

I hope you don't mind me asking this question and thank you for your time.

Kind Regards,
Connie

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:37:00 AM
Subject: RE: Question regarding scavengers and remains

I apologize for taking so long to respond. I've been very busy with work and was out of town, also. I'm not too familiar with the Caylee Anthony case and I am not familiar with the type of scavengers that inhabit the area where she was found. In my research, I noticed that the blankets on the pigs were not torn off or damaged, but it appeared that during decomposition and bloating, the blankets unraveled. This led to the remains being more accessible for the vultures and whatever other scavengers were involved. I was not able to videotape my experiment, so I am not sure what role foxes or raccoons may have played in the displacement of the remains. I did notice that vertebrae and ribs for the most part remained in the grave, while the larger bones were displaced further away. My only guess is that feeding took place on the meatiest parts of the body (abdomen and chest) in situ, leaving the majority of the ribs and vertebrae in the grave. As far as why the skulls and extremities were dragged to other locations--I could only guess that was due to possibly "leftover" scavenging. These skeletal elements would have easily been disarticulated from the body during the primary feeding.

I too question whether Caylee had on clothes in the first place, because what I noticed in my experiment was that the vultures were not that aggressive to remove the blanket. It was only when a good amount of the body was exposed did they start feeding.

I don't know if I've answered your questions or given you more questions to ask, but I hope I helped in some way!

Paulyann

There is also some support for my thoughts here David S is a lab technician, from the UK, I believe and Anthrogirl is an antrhropoligist. I'm not sure about the others that participated.

Vultures are usually the first in after the blowflies, I believe.

Pleasee provide links to all your claims.

Your "expert" is merely a GRADUATE STUDENT, not a professor.

http://www.txstate.edu/anthropology/archives/students.html

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

Let's see, Kronk's 1st 911 call? that would be the grey bag then, correct? The one that ultimately became black inside a beige or tan canvas bag with a white vinyl liner? Remember, On August 11 Faye hadn't even gotten there yet so there couldn't have been a whole lot of water yet. There was only a couple inches of rain that week, IIRC.

I don't recall saying anything about pizza being the source of the smell, so where did that come from? I only pointed out that the scientist originally said there was pizza in there then changed his mind in the 2nd prelim. There was more than pizza in the garbage. I am not saying the smell will completely go away, I am saying it would dissipate, lessen, not grow stronger, once the source is gone. This is also stated by scientists in several articles I read so you'll have to take that up with them. They are more knowledgeable than me on air samples.

Whiteangora, I already gave the page number. It is on my hard drive, gotten from the news source just like all the other docs. It is a pdf file 7 pages long published about April 6th. The report is on page 4 following the chart showing the Anthony and Lazarro receipt dates and amounts for credit cards, etc. I think the JC Penny receipts are the ones many accused the Anthony's of withholding. As I said, I haven't yet gone through the thousands of tips to find her call in. I took the time to upload the doc here for you from my documents. See below.

If the child was left with someone she thought was ok, the SO could have gotten access that way, not necessarily only at the Anthony home, too. Consider the possibility she was afraid to tell all the details correctly but gave clues and partial truths. Perhaps she left her with someone over night and when she went to get her the next day, the phone call to the number that she said was disconnected was really around 5 on the 17th rather than the 16th. Then consider that she tried other variations of that number later on, hoping she had remembered the number wrong.

If you will read the link to the forensic science forum I gave one there says that it is possible to hit and knock out teeth without fracturing the jaw or leaving other signs of bone trauma. Pedophiles have been known to do this.

 

[Gaia713]

But the Medical Examiner didn't mention any antemortem trauma?

Bones eventually dis-articulate on their own when there is nothing left to hold them together

 

[countzero]

I would like to see that link also. IT is well documented that witnesses who do NOT know the person are frequently wrong. In fact, most cases that are overturned are overturned because of witness testimony that is proven wrong by DNA (circumstantial evidence.) I have to believe that the mis-statements by that poster show a severe lack of knowledge about the case and even a possible link to the defense, because the spin is intense.

I am very grateful that I am not just beginning to follow this case because if I was, I would be soooo confuzzled. Decomposing pizzas? Good grief! Many of us did GA's silly experiment, I ended up with petrified pizza in 2 days when left in the hot car trunk.
Also, this constant bashing of LE, the Detectives, the Scientists,
etc is really beginning to get old and tiring.

Perhaps, from how I am reading some posts in this specific thread, there should be a separate thread created for those who want to point out the inconsistencies and faults with the forensic and collected evidence so far released.

I really like this SODDI thread and many posts, again IMHO, are not on topic but a rant theme or possibly a personal agenda. As I see a SODDI theory, it needs to have substance that will work with the known facts. I don't want to see this thread get closed.

 

[Balthazar]

I worked for a pizza company for 2 years and I can ASSURE you that cooked pizza does NOT decompose. It turns to leather. Having dealt with multiple partial pizzas dumpoed ina dumopster with other foods, there was NEVER any decomposition of pizza in any way shape or form. And temperatures where are live are comparable to Florida. I suggest you leave a pizza sitting out in a warm house. You can put new soles on your shoes with old pizza. It's made with preserved meats so decomposition is impossible. Maggots also are not attracted to it.

Reallly? Would you please PM me the name of the pizza company you worked for? I don't want to eat pizza from there EVER! I'm not joking. That is disgusting and obviously they are using a huge amount of preservatives in their product.

With pizza made from fresh ingredients, tomato products and vegetables decompose first which creates a decomposing vegetal odor. The bread will mold - just like any loaf of bread get's moldy - after about 2 weeks. The cheese will go green and moldy, the oil will become rancid. The meats would probably act like jerky or a similar product, decrease in moisture and darken up, become very tough. If in damp conditions, the meat would rot instead and become moldy with a green mold.

 

[Balthazar]

"Caylee Anthony's death has been ruled a homicide, but Dr. G did note that there was no trauma noted. The cause of death is unknown at this time and toxicology results are pending."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1319264/dr_g_identifies_remains_as_caylee_anthonys.html

The ME was indicating that there were no broken or chipped bones. But teeth DO NOT just fall out of a skull. There is something that caused that. It is outside the range of normal decompositional events and that is why it is important. Without flesh present, the trauma to the mouth might not be evident so the doctor could NOT note any trauma. I am talking about a kind of injury that did not involve bone trauma.

 

[countzero]

Reallly? Would you please PM me the name of the pizza company you worked for? I don't want to eat pizza from there EVER! I'm not joking. That is disgusting and obviously they are using a huge amount of preservatives in their product.

With pizza made from fresh ingredients, tomato products and vegetables decompose first which creates a decomposing vegetal odor. The bread will mold - just like any loaf of bread get's moldy - after about 2 weeks. The cheese will go green and moldy, the oil will become rancid. The meats would probably act like jerky or a similar product, decrease in moisture and darken up, become very tough. If in damp conditions, the meat would rot instead and become moldy with a green mold.

Molds, vegetal odors and racid oils DO NOT smell like decomp. And yes, I know from personal experience, both.

 

[Seebra]

Reallly? Would you please PM me the name of the pizza company you worked for? I don't want to eat pizza from there EVER! I'm not joking. That is disgusting and obviously they are using a huge amount of preservatives in their product.

With pizza made from fresh ingredients, tomato products and vegetables decompose first which creates a decomposing vegetal odor. The bread will mold - just like any loaf of bread get's moldy - after about 2 weeks. The cheese will go green and moldy, the oil will become rancid. The meats would probably act like jerky or a similar product, decrease in moisture and darken up, become very tough. If in damp conditions, the meat would rot instead and become moldy with a green mold.

I was very curious about this, because of the pizza theories out there - I did try with several pizza pieces from different pizza shops - one was plain cheese, one had green peppers and pepperoni and one was a deluxe.

ALL THREE had the SAME EFFECT.

The green peppers wilted, eventually turned a dark grayish green color, all the crusts hardened, the pepperoni turned gray and hard, and THERE WAS NO SMELL, MOLD OR MAGGOTS.

I had them directly in the car - no bags, just one on the dash, one in the trunk and one on the backseat (an old car that was sitting outside.)

NOW - do you mean to TELL ME that KC used and made a pizza with fresh ingredients FROM SCRATCH, and did not order a pizza that came in the EMPTY box that was found?

If you don't believe us, try it yourself and you will see the light - there is NO DECOMP SMELL - not even a bad smell at ALL.

 

[Gaia713]

Reallly? Would you please PM me the name of the pizza company you worked for? I don't want to eat pizza from there EVER! I'm not joking. That is disgusting and obviously they are using a huge amount of preservatives in their product.

With pizza made from fresh ingredients, tomato products and vegetables decompose first which creates a decomposing vegetal odor. The bread will mold - just like any loaf of bread get's moldy - after about 2 weeks. The cheese will go green and moldy, the oil will become rancid. The meats would probably act like jerky or a similar product, decrease in moisture and darken up, become very tough. If in damp conditions, the meat would rot instead and become moldy with a green mold.

I have NEVER seen the cheese turn green or molding. That only occurs with cheese in your frig. Try leaving a piece of pizza in your trunk in the summer. It will not mold.

 

[whiteangora]

Reallly? Would you please PM me the name of the pizza company you worked for? I don't want to eat pizza from there EVER! I'm not joking. That is disgusting and obviously they are using a huge amount of preservatives in their product.

With pizza made from fresh ingredients, tomato products and vegetables decompose first which creates a decomposing vegetal odor. The bread will mold - just like any loaf of bread get's moldy - after about 2 weeks. The cheese will go green and moldy, the oil will become rancid. The meats would probably act like jerky or a similar product, decrease in moisture and darken up, become very tough. If in damp conditions, the meat would rot instead and become moldy with a green mold.

We are talking about a piece of pizza left in a very hot car trunk.
Why we are even talking about it is a mystery because there was NO PIZZA in Casey's trunk.
My experiment was pizza w/pepperoni, ground beef, sausage, mushrooms, peppers & onions and I Guarantee you there was NO odor. It turned rock hard and odorless in 2 days.

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

On the elevation map provided in the documents you will see that the elevation at road level is 82.3. Moving in the SE direction toward the remains the area of the skull was between 80.5 and 79.5. The pelvis was found about 6' away, I believe and the elevation there was about 79.35. The lower elevation is more East and SE from there. The average elevation in Orlando is 98 feet, according to Wiki. So, this area would be wetter than other areas but, it was dry enough to allow Kronk to go in there to relieve himself. A bag wouldn't darken from gray to black with age and exposure to the elements either. Just the opposite, if anything.

 

[Gaia713]

I was very curious about this, because of the pizza theories out there - I did try with several pizza pieces from different pizza shops - one was plain cheese, one had green peppers and pepperoni and one was a deluxe.

ALL THREE had the SAME EFFECT.

The green peppers wilted, eventually turned a dark grayish green color, all the crusts hardened, the pepperoni turned gray and hard, and THERE WAS NO SMELL, MOLD OR MAGGOTS.

I had them directly in the car - no bags, just one on the dash, one in the trunk and one on the backseat (an old car that was sitting outside.)

NOW - do you mean to TELL ME that KC used and made a pizza with fresh ingredients FROM SCRATCH, and did not order a pizza that came in the EMPTY box that was found?

If you don't believe us, try it yourself and you will see the light - there is NO DECOMP SMELL - not even a bad smell at ALL.

I concue. I live in a house of single people who order all kinds of pizza and they constantly leave it sitting out. I am not sure that cooked cheese can even mold. Even the "fresh" ingredients are COOKED in the oven.

 

[MaedchenX]

The ME was indicating that there were no broken or chipped bones. But teeth DO NOT just fall out of a skull. There is something that caused that. It is outside the range of normal decompositional events and that is why it is important. Without flesh present, the trauma to the mouth might not be evident so the doctor could NOT note any trauma. I am talking about a kind of injury that did not involve bone trauma.

Could you please cite the source for this information? I am curious to read it for myself.

 

[Gaia713]

On the elevation map provided in the documents you will see that the elevation at road level is 82.3. Moving in the SE direction toward the remains the area of the skull was between 80.5 and 79.5. The pelvis was found about 6' away, I believe and the elevation there was about 79.35. The lower elevation is more East and SE from there. The average elevation in Orlando is 98 feet, according to Wiki. So, this area would be wetter than other areas but, it was dry enough to allow Kronk to go in there to relieve himself. A bag wouldn't darken from gray to black with age and exposure to the elements either. Just the opposite, if anything.

Please provide links to your facts.

 

[Seebra]

We are talking about a piece of pizza left in a very hot car trunk.
Why we are even talking about it is a mystery because there was NO PIZZA in Casey's trunk.
My experiment was pizza w/pepperoni, ground beef, sausage, mushrooms, peppers & onions and I Guarantee you there was NO odor. It turned rock hard and odorless in 2 days.

Yep yep. Now, I might add this - Princess, take a chicken leg - place it in the trunk of a car, or even a sealed box. After two days, lift the lid and remove the chicken, but leave the juices in the box and reseal. Check the box or trunk after another 3 days - check it again after 5 days - check it again after 10 days - check it at 15 days - and come back and tell me if the smell grew stronger or faded away.

(had to do a project in biology once, so I already know what the answer will be..)

 

[countzero]

On the elevation map provided in the documents you will see that the elevation at road level is 82.3. Moving in the SE direction toward the remains the area of the skull was between 80.5 and 79.5. The pelvis was found about 6' away, I believe and the elevation there was about 79.35. The lower elevation is more East and SE from there. The average elevation in Orlando is 98 feet, according to Wiki. So, this area would be wetter than other areas but, it was dry enough to allow Kronk to go in there to relieve himself. A bag wouldn't darken from gray to black with age and exposure to the elements either. Just the opposite, if anything.

Not being smart, but how can you give such precise measurements without having been at the site and taken these measurements while Caylee was there? If you have been to the site, I apologize.

 

[Balthazar]

Perhaps, from how I am reading some posts in this specific thread, there should be a separate thread created for those who want to point out the inconsistencies and faults with the forensic and collected evidence so far released.

I really like this SODDI thread and many posts, again IMHO, are not on topic but a rant theme or possibly a personal agenda. As I see a SODDI theory, it needs to have substance that will work with the known facts. I don't want to see this thread get closed.

I agree. I thought the purpose of this thread was to see if we could come up with a viable SOD, not to put each other down.