The Use of the Shovel

[Woe.be.gone]

Over the holiday weekend my family had given a pool party for the kids. There was one little boy there that had just turned 3 yo that was very good at swimming. When I talk to his mother about it, she said he had taken swimming for quite some time. They did this little trick where she threw him in the pool and he came up from under water and swam to the edge of the pool. Amazing! I thought it was so amazing to see this little boy swimming without floats, he could almost swim as good as me! lol

My question is this: Do we know if Caylee had any swimming lessons? Or did GA or CA teach her to swim? It seems that they went swimming quite often. Did Caylee need floats?

I am asking this because if Caylee knew how to swim or did not need floats while in the water, how could she drown unless someone was holding her under water? I am just curious.

I've seen where they have lessons for little babies but that's more getting the babies used to the water, not being afraid of it and for Mommy and Me time, etc.

My boy started with YMCA swimming lessons at four years old. Caylee was not even three yet and based on what I've seen with them, I doubt she had any organized lessons. Even if she had it would not be reasurrance of her safety especially if she had gotten behind the ladder and became stuck.

It's always good that a child learn to swim. It's a good skill to have but I would never trust a small child in and around the water until they were way beyond kindergarten - maybe eight or nine, even then I'd be watching. They are rough with each other too!

I've taught and coached swimming to babies all the way up to older adults. A child of 3 can learn to dog paddle and float but as far as being able to swim freestyle or other structured stroke, it's not likely. If you throw in the panic factor even a strong beginner can panic and drown, in as little water as 3-6" deep!
I believe I've seen Caylee in photos or video(?) with her water wings on and I think Cindy was in the water with her. If a child is comfortable enough with the water and how well they can swim, they will not want to use the wings anymore.

Thank you.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

And remember when her parents visited her in jail and told her that the media were saying that she drowned in the pool? She replied "Imagine that". Right then I got the impression that that is really what happened and they all knew it. I do think she may have tried to bury her near the house, it probably looked easy to dig in that area.

When someone says "Imagine that " it is almost like saying that is what did happen "imagine that". No?

Well, what she actually said was "surprise surprise" (sarcastically).

Cindy: They're saying she drowned in the pool.
Casey: Surprise surprise.

PR's point about the "depression" perhaps being from a cinder block (or 3 on top of each other) being placed on the ground is interesting. PR, how do we know the depression was square?

If it's the one where KC wigs out then it was Aug 14th...this is it 2:08 in KC say's "Surprise, Surprise!" YouTube - The Lost Jail Tape: August 14 Part 1

Thanks all - "SURPRISE" it is then.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Hey Woe! IIRC, long before the Tracy M interview was known to us, Brian B, the A's neighbor, is the one who stated in his interview with LE that KC stated she wanted to borrow the shovel to remove bamboo. I would offer a link but have had no luck as my computer is having issues with pdf files. I will ask hubby for help maybe updating. :crazy:If anyone is interested the interviews can be found in the sticky section. Hope this helps!

I can't access BB interview - doc.stoc says owner made private and the news link doesn't work either.

Just my :twocents:, I don't remember that BB said he was given a reason/or that he gave a reason to LE - I thought/remember that excuse as being one of CA's inventions.

Anywho, there is no way imo that KC made a special trip over to Hopespring Dr. in order to dig up bamboo. I would bet my life savings that that is not the reason KC borrowed the shovel. It's rediculous.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I also think that Cindy, George and Lee know a lot more about what happened. They had a lot of time with Casey when she was out on bond... which we know now, in the first nine days, George blew up at Casey and didn't even speak to her after that. She went back to jail and was bonded out again by someone else.

George's comments about "Not willing to live this lie" or something like that is very disturbing because it seems he has now chosen to do just that. Live that lie!

They are all living that lie because that lie is bringing them money that they didn't have before all this. I can only hope that people will not support the Anthony family (ANY OF THEM) making a dime off of an innocent two-year-old baby being murdered. That includes the Milsteads and the Hoovers, Dominics, Jose's and Michelle Barts of the Anthony saga!

Did you know we have a RANT thread? :blowkiss:

 

[celticthyme]

Do you think Casey might have told her family & Baez initially or when she was out on bond some kind of story about Caylee drowning in the pool,choking or anything, to get them off her back & keep them from pressing her too much.?? In the very beginning, they really did not know where Caylee was, and did think she was alive, but that soon changed. Something had to have happened for that change in attitude.

Then they all went into cover-up mode, and created deflections and distractions about Caylee's where abouts. Sending LE & searchers on wild goose chases, to bide them time, and avoid the truth?? That is why they never really confronted her about things? Why they might have been afraid to have her be alone with Tracy, because they thought she would tell "her story,"
even though it was a lie, but they did not know that. They didn't know the haneous-ness horror of it until they found the body with the duct tape, long after she was in jail???

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Do you think Casey might have told her family & Baez initially or when she was out on bond some kind of story about Caylee drowning in the pool,choking or anything, to get them off her back & keep them from pressing her too much.?? In the very beginning, they really did not know where Caylee was, and did think she was alive, but that soon changed. Something had to have happened for that change in attitude.

Then they all went into cover-up mode, and created deflections and distractions about Caylee's where abouts. Sending LE & searchers on wild goose chases, to bide them time, and avoid the truth?? That is why they never really confronted her about things? Why they might have been afraid to have her be alone with Tracy, because they thought she would tell "her story,"even though it was a lie, but they did not know that. They didn't know the haneous-ness horror of it until they found the body with the duct tape, long after she was in jail???

I think this is an EXCELLENT theory. And......yeah..............this from above:
Why they might have been afraid to have her be alone with Tracy, because they thought she would tell "her story,". Why ELSE would they not want her left alone with TM, LP, or RD? I mean, if you are innocent and the nanny has taken your baby, what could you possibly say that you WOULDN'T want the bountyhunter/investigator type people to hear?....I must be slow:bang: not to have thought of this before.

 

[Muzikman]

I can't access BB interview - doc.stoc says owner made private and the news link doesn't work either.

Just my :twocents:, I don't remember that BB said he was given a reason/or that he gave a reason to LE - I thought/remember that excuse as being one of CA's inventions.

Anywho, there is no way imo that KC made a special trip over to Hopespring Dr. in order to dig up bamboo. I would bet my life savings that that is not the reason KC borrowed the shovel. It's rediculous.

Here's the audio, there are 2 parts
-
http://www.filedropper.com/brianburner071708-11535

http://www.filedropper.com/brianburner071708-2

 

[celticthyme]

I think this is an EXCELLENT theory. And......yeah..............this from above:
Why they might have been afraid to have her be alone with Tracy, because they thought she would tell "her story,". Why ELSE would they not want her left alone with TM, LP, or RD? I mean, if you are innocent and the nanny has taken your baby, what could you possibly say that you WOULDN'T want the bountyhunter/investigator type people to hear?....I must be slow:bang: not to have thought of this before.

TotallyObsessed, Yah! Me too! It maes me wonder what they were trying to hide / cover up, at some point . . . ( and I wish I were not "totally obsessed" with wanting to now some answers) How she illed her, we may never really now I'm afraid. I do wonder about CA over reacting about the pool shovel thing, the ladder up and the gate open, if the pool did not play some part . MOO

 

[momtective]

Transcript of BB's interview
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Burner Brian-01-0717.pdf

FWIW I believe KC used the shovel for the purpose for which it was designed...to dig!
Now what she buried or dug up, I have no idea. According to BB she had the shovel for 45min to an hour.
I don't believe the BS about the root, or the pool, or ladder, or lifting something up, or retrieving something that was to high for her to reach! I don't believe any of it. It's all a bunch of BS. She used the shovel to dig! JMO of course.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm assuming that le would do tests on the shovel to see if there was chlorine, pool chemicals on the shovel..

They did.

I should add, I don't know what they tested for (have to look in docs but not sure I'm up to it today). Since this interview with Tracy took place a long time ago maybe they did test the shovel for these things. I have to remember that we heard the interview recently but LE heard it last September.

You have a great point there. Maybe the tests will/not confirm the story. I wonder if the shovel was returned to BB or if it has been retained for evidence. How can we find out?

 

[snow_walker]

KC may have borrowed the shovel to dig with.. which is logical enough, that is what shovels are meant for.. the logical thing to do was bury little Caylee somewhere..still, she didn't bury her body, and the shovel was returned clean and apparently unused within an hour...

I don't say that wasn't her original intent with the shovel, but it wasn't put to that use... was it used for anything else? is probably the question ...she may have discarded the digging idea without even trying to dig a hole in the yard.. too likely to be discovered.
I still think though, that since she had it in her hand, she used it for something.. she could have used a broom or almost anything to reach something, move ladder etc..but a shovel in the hand is more likely to be used than a broom inside the house in the broom closet.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

BBM. You are so right, I haven't thought of that comparison before. My parents babysat my shih tzu Charlie 5 days a week when he was a puppy, and during that time their 16 year old German Shepherd passed away (who wasn't even that interactive with Charlie - she was an old lady) - and Charlie moped for weeks, constantly snuggling up where Mandy used to lay. We called vets about puppy prozac, but they said just to distract him!

Thinking about that made me sick. My DOG showed more concern for another dog he only knew for a year than this sick woman showed for her daughter.

So another thing to feel sad about is imagining what the A's pets are going through. Did they have one or two dogs? and a cat I think. They're probably the only ones who saw what happened.

 

[MissJames]

Transcript of BB's interview
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Burner Brian-01-0717.pdf

FWIW I believe KC used the shovel for the purpose for which it was designed...to dig!
Now what she buried or dug up, I have no idea. According to BB she had the shovel for 45min to an hour.
I don't believe the BS about the root, or the pool, or ladder, or lifting something up, or retrieving something that was to high for her to reach! I don't believe any of it. It's all a bunch of BS. She used the shovel to dig! JMO of course.

Can I just throw in here what an idiot KC was. Your child is dead,you know it's eventually going to come to light,and you leave a trail by borrowing a shovel from a neighbor? :bang: Too stupid for words.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The shovel being used to move the ladder..if my thought that Caylee's body was wedged beneath or beside the ladder is the truth, then perhaps she needed something like a shovel to pry the ladder up with, to get enough space to loosen the body and remove it.. perhaps she used it to hold the ladder up with for a few minutes while she did that... balancing the shovel on the edge of the pool to hold the ladder up while she got in and removed the body.

Then you're imagining that she left Caylee there for two days? Wow, I didn't think of that. That would be terrible - even more terrible than everything I've imagined so far.

I was thinking that KC would have gotten Caylee out from the pool, did nothing to help her to live, conducted the ceremony or at least prepared Caylee (tape, heart, bags, etc) for the trunk and then came back to Hopespring on the 18th to "clean up" a few things.

What you said is a new horrible thought for me. I can't imagine if CA or GA looked at the pool and saw the sight (I can't even say it) you know.

 

[100%Agave]

KC may have borrowed the shovel to dig with.. which is logical enough, that is what shovels are meant for.. the logical thing to do was bury little Caylee somewhere..still, she didn't bury her body, and the shovel was returned clean and apparently unused within an hour...

I don't say that wasn't her original intent with the shovel, but it wasn't put to that use... was it used for anything else? is probably the question ...she may have discarded the digging idea without even trying to dig a hole in the yard.. too likely to be discovered.
I still think though, that since she had it in her hand, she used it for something.. she could have used a broom or almost anything to reach something, move ladder etc..but a shovel in the hand is more likely to be used than a broom inside the house in the broom closet.

Bolded above is the real question as far as what the shovel was used for but I still don't see using the shovel to get the ladder out of the pool.

That ladder didn't just jump in the pool all by itself. Caylee didn't accidentally pull it into the pull or push it into the pool. According the what I have read here it would be too heavy and obviously too ackward for that.

If the ladder was in the pool, who put it there?

Wouldn't CA or GA have noticed it if it was in there for any length of time? I would think so, unless KC put it in the pool herself on that day, but why? Not to help a drowning Caylee for sure. To drown her, why bother to put the ladder in the pool for that, why not just take it out of the pool? Same results but a lot easier.

Some have speculated that Caylee was maybe wedged below the ladder. If so, wouldn't you pull the ladder out of the pool or raise up the bottom part that is inside the pool to get her out? Why not just jump in the pool and pull her out yourself? No moving the pool ladder, no need for a shovel to pull it out of the pool, no need for a shovel to pull Caylee out of the pool. She would get wet, yes, but all she would have to do is go inside change clothes, blow dry her hair, throw her wet clothes in the dryer for a few or even put them in a plastic bag and throw them away after she leaves, and no one would know that she had ever been in the pool.

I just don't see the shovel and ladder story as making any sense at all. I would stick with the bamboo story if I was her. At least, it makes sense and is grounded in some fact since bamboo does cause a problem as it spreads.

 

[MissJames]

Bolded above is the real question as far as what the shovel was used for but I still don't see using the shovel to get the ladder out of the pool.

That ladder didn't just jump in the pool all by itself. Caylee didn't accidentally pull it into the pull or push it into the pool. According the what I have read here it would be too heavy and obviously too ackward for that.

If the ladder was in the pool, who put it there?

Wouldn't CA or GA have noticed it if it was in there for any length of time? I would think so, unless KC put it in the pool herself on that day, but why? Not to help a drowning Caylee for sure. To drown her, why bother to put the ladder in the pool for that, why not just take it out of the pool? Same results but a lot easier.

Some have speculated that Caylee was maybe wedged below the ladder. If so, wouldn't you pull the ladder out of the pool or raise up the bottom part that is inside the pool to get her out? Why not just jump in the pool and pull her out yourself? No moving the pool ladder, no need for a shovel to pull it out of the pool, no need for a shovel to pull Caylee out of the pool. She would get wet, yes, but all she would have to do is go inside change clothes, blow dry her hair, throw her wet clothes in the dryer for a few or even put them in a plastic bag and throw them away after she leaves, and no one would know that she had ever been in the pool.

I just don't see the shovel and ladder story as making any sense at all. I would stick with the bamboo story if I was her. At least, it makes sense and is grounded in some fact since bamboo does cause a problem as it spreads.

Maybe she started to dig a spot to put Caylee,couldn't quite do it,and cleaned the shovel off in the pool. She used the ladder story to cover any findings of chlorine by LE on the shovel.Kind of like the squirrel story.A pre-emptive strike. Geez,now I'm grasping at straws

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Can I just throw in here what an idiot KC was. Your child is dead,you know it's eventually going to come to light,and you leave a trail by borrowing a shovel from a neighbor? :bang: Too stupid for words.

Your point is another reason I feel CA may have been involved in some way from day one.

My "feeling" is not a popular one and is probably off-the-wall but I can't get it out of my head.

They is no evidence that outrules this possibility completely at least from what I have seen.

 

[mom2chloe]

From Brian B's interview:
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Q. Okay you so you know uh…Casey?
A. Yea.
Q. Casey Anthony?
A. Well generally yea.
Q. Or you you know her enough to know she she was your neighbor and she lived there?
A. Correct, yea.
Q. Do you know how long she lived there?
A. Um no but I I believe the parents have been there, I been at that residence for almost three years.
Q. Um huh (affirmative)
A. And just from hear say from other neighbors I… I think they been there uh fourteen plus years.
Q. So they been there definitely longer than you have been?
A. Yes.
Q. You were telling me about uh Casey coming over one day and borrowing a shovel.
A. Correct.
Q. Can you tell me about that day and what happened that day?
A. Uh…I was out in front of my yard I just cut my grass and I was using a weed blower and blowing off the debris and Casey had approached me and said that she couldn’t find the key to their shed and want to know if she if I had a shovel she could borough to dig up a…um…a bamboo root that she’s been tripping over …and I agree I said yea I have a shovel that you can use.
Q. Was anybody with Casey when she came over?

FWIW, I cannot see KC digging with the shovel unless it was in the sand box to bury Caylee and/or retrieve her from the sand box. We know that CA said they didn't use the sandbox much because it was too messy. Perhaps KC placed Caylee in the sand box, covered her with sand and replaced the lid, knowing that since Caylee wasn't around there would be no one using the sandbox and therefore none of the A's would be looking there.
I cannot believe that Caylee was left anywhere in the yard because the A's dogs would surely have tried to alert to that fact.
Perhaps the strange indentation in the soil in the backyard was from KC shoveling out just enough sand to allow her to place Caylee in the sandbox, buying herself time to dispose of the body later. Sand is heavy and could leave an indentation even if it had been placed in a bucket or bag.
Something led the A's to press harder in their search for KC and Caylee on July 3, maybe that something was that they noticed something in regards to Caylee's sand box that day prior to laying the pavers.
What would KC have done if Brian B had simply responded that he would take care of the bamboo for her?

 

[essies]

Can I just throw in here what an idiot KC was. Your child is dead,you know it's eventually going to come to light,and you leave a trail by borrowing a shovel from a neighbor? :bang: Too stupid for words.

Remember Miss James-we're talking about a girl who used google to look up "shovel"-so maybe KC is only slightly stoopid! (~_+)

 

[La.Sandy]

OK, I don't know/remember all the details like most of you do, but could the shovel have been to lift up/loosen some pavers? Perhaps she needed help getting pavers lifted out of the dirt, something to shove under the edge (rather than fingers) to get them loose. Could the indentation have been where the pavers were before Casey removed them with the help of a shovel?