The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[coco puff]

Just a few points...

First of all I think those who say that Casey was a good mother, must be much more accepting of bizarre human behavior than I am, since Casey's seems psychopathic to me.

Casey herself said that Zanny was punishing her for being a bad mother and since Zanny doesn't exist one might take this to being an admission by her of her bad mother status. And it is not very good mothering to have fake nannies, fake jobs and fake friends and to drag this very young child to God knows where and at what hours and to be exposed to who knows what. Excessive drinking at the very least. Not to mention that IF she did care about her child's future, she would have had a real job not a pretend one. She was only a "good mother" when it was easy and fun to play and there were witnesses. Since, I am a mother I can imagine myself in her shoes (well I could if I believed the crock of story that Caylee drowned in the pool and instead of doing what everyone else would have done, she and her pervert father decided to make an accident appear to be a murder and throw the beloved, cherished, child away like trash and the dad who then later decides to frame...)...but I digress...

I can imagine being in her shoes and, all logic aside, have to pretend that my dear child has been kidnapped. I would imagine that I would be in a state of devastation, shock and complete and utter sadness. I would have to be alone for awhile to collect myself and then I would want to hide away and not speak with anyone. How could I? The mere mention of my beloved would send me over the edge emotionally. Plus I am driving around in a car that is stinking like my dead child..or maybe that was a squirrel. Don't even mention having to confront and hoodwink my mother and the police...it would be too much. Is this what Casey experienced? Ummm NOOOOOOOO! In fact, Casey did not react like I would have, or anyone who has ever lived would react. Well, anyone innocent that is. And IF she were a good mother to start with, it would just not be possible to (beginning just hours, if not minutes, after the death) go out partying, drinking, f-ing, laughing, cooking, cleaning, dancing, hotshotting, tattooing, texting, lying, and stealing. (Oh and remember this was the same dear who people "thought" was a good friend and daughter who in reality stole from not only her friends, but her aged grandfather and her parents) And she looked seasoned Cops right in the eye and Lied lied lied. Lied to everyone with so much ease and grace, why it was if she had ice water in her veins. So IF I somehow chalked it up to "bad coping" or some sort of selective mental breakdown (although most of which was going on BEFORE child was dead) HOW do you explain the absolute mental and emotional TORTURE that this girl inflicted on her mother by leading her to believe FOR MONTHS that there was a chance that she would see her beloved granddaughter again? I don't care what anyone says this FACT proves that there is something VERY dangerous about Casey. Someone who has it in them the desire, and ability, to use her own baby, who she knows is dead, as a pawn to keep her mother guessing, hoping and in agony and to keep the cops on the runaround is not a person who could be a caring individual. In fact you might want to call her a sadist. Now if you think that the person I just described sounds like a GOOD MOTHER then...yikes!

OUTSTANDING POST. May I add that it was interesting that the very women who was so disfunctional that she "went screwin, boozin and tattoo'n" while her child decomposed in a swamp was the same women who could not BARE to look at a picture of her daughers remains in court. I guess she can compartmentalize whenever it is to her advantage.

 

[beccalecca1]

There's a difference in Postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis.

I don't recall Susan Smith having either and I live in SC. I do recall the sexual abuse ,but I don't recall anything about her having sex with her stepfather after her children were born.

I see FICA and Susan Smith as very similar,but they had very different jurors.:banghead:

I'm confused, is the cnn.com article wrong?

 

[annalia]

It's possible, but I was pretty sure it was Susan Smith.... looking it up




I do know with Postpartum, if it's not treated as soon as possible, it just keeps getting worse. So, a 14 month old child would only mean that she suffered with it untreated for approximately 14 months.... it was pretty bad I'm sure.

My bolding.

That is just not true. Most times PPD goes away on it's own.

I don't see in the article linked that it said Susan Smith had PPD.

Her husband stated this in the article, "Smith said his wife killed their two sons "out of greed, out of selfishness," because her new boyfriend didn't want children around. Smith and his wife were separated and getting a divorce at the time."

 

[beccalecca1]

My bolding.

That is just not true. Most times PPD goes away on it's own.

I don't see in the article linked that it said Susan Smith had PPD.

Her husband stated this in the article, "Smith said his wife killed their two sons "out of greed, out of selfishness," because her new boyfriend didn't want children around. Smith and his wife were separated and getting a divorce at the time."

BBM

This is true.

Complications

If left untreated, postpartum depression can last for months or years, and you may be at risk of harming yourself or your baby.

The potential long-term complications are the same as in major depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0004481/

Because of the seriousness behind postpartum depression (it can lead to postpartum psychosis in certain people), you should get treated right away if you believe you experience the symptoms. This is a well known fact now a days with new mothers, the MD's involved in your care ask you about the symptoms very frequently to make sure you're not experiencing it.

And, in the linked article I quoted her husband stating she suffered from it (I think he would know of all people), and the quote is right above the line you quoted. He stated that she suffered from it in all 4 other births, and suffered from it along with her last birth.



ETA: quote from original post:

Russell Yates has acknowledged that his wife experienced postpartum depression after giving birth to their fourth child, and again following the birth of their last child.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-07-06/u...smith?_s=PM:US

 

[kaki]

Just a few points...

First of all I think those who say that Casey was a good mother, must be much more accepting of bizarre human behavior than I am, since Casey's seems psychopathic to me.

Casey herself said that Zanny was punishing her for being a bad mother and since Zanny doesn't exist one might take this to being an admission by her of her bad mother status. And it is not very good mothering to have fake nannies, fake jobs and fake friends and to drag this very young child to God knows where and at what hours and to be exposed to who knows what. Excessive drinking at the very least. Not to mention that IF she did care about her child's future, she would have had a real job not a pretend one. She was only a "good mother" when it was easy and fun to play and there were witnesses. Since, I am a mother I can imagine myself in her shoes (well I could if I believed the crock of story that Caylee drowned in the pool and instead of doing what everyone else would have done, she and her pervert father decided to make an accident appear to be a murder and throw the beloved, cherished, child away like trash and the dad who then later decides to frame...)...but I digress...

I can imagine being in her shoes and, all logic aside, have to pretend that my dear child has been kidnapped. I would imagine that I would be in a state of devastation, shock and complete and utter sadness. I would have to be alone for awhile to collect myself and then I would want to hide away and not speak with anyone. How could I? The mere mention of my beloved would send me over the edge emotionally. Plus I am driving around in a car that is stinking like my dead child..or maybe that was a squirrel. Don't even mention having to confront and hoodwink my mother and the police...it would be too much. Is this what Casey experienced? Ummm NOOOOOOOO! In fact, Casey did not react like I would have, or anyone who has ever lived would react. Well, anyone innocent that is. And IF she were a good mother to start with, it would just not be possible to (beginning just hours, if not minutes, after the death) go out partying, drinking, f-ing, laughing, cooking, cleaning, dancing, hotshotting, tattooing, texting, lying, and stealing. (Oh and remember this was the same dear who people "thought" was a good friend and daughter who in reality stole from not only her friends, but her aged grandfather and her parents) And she looked seasoned Cops right in the eye and Lied lied lied. Lied to everyone with so much ease and grace, why it was if she had ice water in her veins. So IF I somehow chalked it up to "bad coping" or some sort of selective mental breakdown (although most of which was going on BEFORE child was dead) HOW do you explain the absolute mental and emotional TORTURE that this girl inflicted on her mother by leading her to believe FOR MONTHS that there was a chance that she would see her beloved granddaughter again? I don't care what anyone says this FACT proves that there is something VERY dangerous about Casey. Someone who has it in them the desire, and ability, to use her own baby, who she knows is dead, as a pawn to keep her mother guessing, hoping and in agony and to keep the cops on the runaround is not a person who could be a caring individual. In fact you might want to call her a sadist. Now if you think that the person I just described sounds like a GOOD MOTHER then...yikes!

I wished the prosection could have said this at some time during the trial. It drove me crazy to have her friends and Mallory tell Baez she was a "good mother".. I'm sure the jury lapped that up. Of course , with this jury it wouldn't have mattered... but maybe just maybe one of them would have listened...

 

[Sustained]

I wished the prosection could have said this at some time during the trial. It drove me crazy to have her friends and Mallory tell Baez she was a "good mother".. I'm sure the jury lapped that up. Of course , with this jury it wouldn't have mattered... but maybe just maybe one of them would have listened...

Darlie Routier was a great mom as well .... until .... until that one night she went and stabbed her boys to death. Without being in FCA's head, we will never know what caused a "good" mom to kill her child, bag her up, and throw her in the swamp.

 

[annalia]

BBM

This is true.



Because of the seriousness behind postpartum depression (it can lead to postpartum psychosis in certain people), you should get treated right away if you believe you experience the symptoms. This is a well known fact now a days with new mothers, the MD's involved in your care ask you about the symptoms very frequently to make sure you're not experiencing it.

And, in the linked article I quoted her husband stating she suffered from it (I think he would know of all people), and the quote is right above the line you quoted. He stated that she suffered from it in all 4 other births, and suffered from it along with her last birth.



ETA: quote from original post:

It says that it CAN lead not that it always does as you had originally stated.

Why did you leave this important part out of the article that you linked?

"These symptoms almost always go away soon, without the need for treatment."



I had PPD twice, once was postpartum psychosis, they both went away just as quickly as they came on. All studies have stated that this is normally the case. But It CAN lead to further complications.

It was Andrea Yates husband that stated it was Andrea had PPD not Susan Smith's husband. However, you originally posted and posted the link referring to Susan Smith ( # 307 & 319), in response to another poster stating it was Andrea and not Susan.

 

[beccalecca1]

IIRC, wasn't Susan Smith suffering from Post Partum Depression too? If so, a man wasn't all that it takes, it also takes a hormonal imbalance.

I don't think she had Postpartum Depression. Her youngest was 14 months old. I could be wrong, but I don't remember anything about PPD with Smith. Maybe you are thinking of Yates?

It's possible, but I was pretty sure it was Susan Smith.... looking it up




I do know with Postpartum, if it's not treated as soon as possible, it just keeps getting worse. So, a 14 month old child would only mean that she suffered with it untreated for approximately 14 months.... it was pretty bad I'm sure.

My bolding.

That is just not true. Most times PPD goes away on it's own.

I don't see in the article linked that it said Susan Smith had PPD.

Her husband stated this in the article, "Smith said his wife killed their two sons "out of greed, out of selfishness," because her new boyfriend didn't want children around. Smith and his wife were separated and getting a divorce at the time."

BBM

This is true.



Because of the seriousness behind postpartum depression (it can lead to postpartum psychosis in certain people), you should get treated right away if you believe you experience the symptoms. This is a well known fact now a days with new mothers, the MD's involved in your care ask you about the symptoms very frequently to make sure you're not experiencing it.

And, in the linked article I quoted her husband stating she suffered from it (I think he would know of all people), and the quote is right above the line you quoted. He stated that she suffered from it in all 4 other births, and suffered from it along with her last birth.



ETA: quote from original post:

It says that it CAN lead not that it always does as you had originally stated.

Why did you leave this important part out of the article that you linked?

"These symptoms almost always go away soon, without the need for treatment."



I had PPD twice, once was postpartum psychosis, they both went away as quickly as they came on. All studies have stated that this is normally the case. But It CAN lead to further complications.

It was Andrea Yates husband that stated it was Andrea had PPD not Susan Smith's husband. However, you originally posted referring to Susan Smith, in response to another poster stating it was Andrea and not Susan.

Above is how the conversation went. I found an article where Susan's husband stated she suffered Postpartum with each of her children's births. Someone thought I was confusing the 2, but I don't believe I was. It appears they both suffered from it.

And, the bolded post above referring to a sentence in the link I provided through Pubmed Health, I do not see the sentence anywhere located on that link. This link is referring to Postpartum Depression, not the "Baby Blues" (which does go away on it's own and most women experience this).

ETA: I believe the section you were referring to is this:

Feelings of anxiety, irritation, tearfulness, and restlessness are common in the week or two after pregnancy. These feelings are often called the postpartum or "baby blues." These symptoms almost always go away soon, without the need for treatment.

Postpartum depression may occur when the baby blues do not fade away or when signs of depression start 1 or more months after childbirth.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0004481/

That is not referring to postpartum depression though.

 

[annalia]

Above is how the conversation went. I found an article where Susan's husband stated she suffered Postpartum with each of her children's births. Someone thought I was confusing the 2, but I don't believe I was. It appears they both suffered from it.

And, the bolded post above referring to a sentence in the link I provided through Pubmed Health, I do not see the sentence anywhere located on that link. This link is referring to Postpartum Depression, not the "Baby Blues" (which does go away on it's own and most women experience this).

Can you please quote exactly where in the article you linked it states Susan Smith's husband said she had PPD? I read it again and can't find it.

Here's what that article stated

"Russell Yates has acknowledged that his wife experienced postpartum depression after giving birth to their fourth child, and again following the birth of their last child.

Smith said his wife killed their two sons "out of greed, out of selfishness," because her new boyfriend didn't want children around. Smith and his wife were separated and getting a divorce at the time."

 

[kidz110]

Darlie Routier was a great mom as well .... until .... until that one night she went and stabbed her boys to death. Without being in FCA's head, we will never know what caused a "good" mom to kill her child, bag her up, and throw her in the swamp.

Exactly. And FCA was checked out--several times. If she had been suffering from anything, I'm sure her defense team would have spent more time bringing in medical witnesses instead of forensic witnesses. Some people are just evil. I keep trying to stick with the evidence that was allowed in court. I realize due to the sunshine laws I know many things the jurors didn't, but even just listening to the evidence presented, I still don't agree with the verdict. I just will never understand that verdict.

 

[beccalecca1]

Can you please quote exactly where in the article you linked it states Susan Smith's husband said she had PPD? I read it again and can't find it.

Here's what that article stated

"Russell Yates has acknowledged that his wife experienced postpartum depression after giving birth to their fourth child, and again following the birth of their last child.

Smith said his wife killed their two sons "out of greed, out of selfishness," because her new boyfriend didn't want children around. Smith and his wife were separated and getting a divorce at the time."

This is really OT to the thread, and becoming nonconstructive. He acknowledged it, so IMO he stated it to be true.

 

[annalia]

This is really OT to the thread, and becoming nonconstructive. He acknowledged it, so IMO he stated it to be true.

Where did he, Susan Smith's husband, acknowledge that SS suffered from PPD?

I simply asked to post where he said it and I will stand corrected.

Here is the link that you posted again.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-07-06/us/smith.yates_1_yates-children-andrea-yates-susan-smith?_s=PM:US

 

[logicalgirl]

Exactly. And FCA was checked out--several times. If she had been suffering from anything, I'm sure her defense team would have spent more time bringing in medical witnesses instead of forensic witnesses. Some people are just evil. I keep trying to stick with the evidence that was allowed in court. I realize due to the sunshine laws I know many things the jurors didn't, but even just listening to the evidence presented, I still don't agree with the verdict. I just will never understand that verdict.

Yes, one of her last shrinks, who diagnosed her during the final days of the trial said she had no personality disorders, etc., but simply that she is very immature.
Even so, those soft issues are to be argued during the penalty phase, not the guilt phase. The guilt phase is about the facts of evidence.

I have now reached the point of being dryly amused by those who remain sucker punched by Baez's twisting of the evidence and those who "bought" it.
Despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence re FKC's guilt, sucker punched folks keep taking the same circular side roads that Baez pointed them to. Really quite extraordinary!

Baez is not a clever man, but he sure is wily...and he read this non-thinking jury much better than the SA, there is no doubt of that...All MOO of course...

 

[sacrablue]

Yes, one of her last shrinks, who diagnosed her during the final days of the trial said she had no personality disorders, etc., but simply that she is very immature.
Even so, those soft issues are to be argued during the penalty phase, not the guilt phase. The guilt phase is about the facts of evidence.

I have now reached the point of being dryly amused by those who remain sucker punched by Baez's twisting of the evidence and those who "bought" it.
Despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence re FKC's guilt, sucker punched folks keep taking the same circular side roads that Baez pointed them to. Really quite extraordinary!

Baez is not a clever man, but he sure is wily...and he read this non-thinking jury much better than the SA, there is no doubt of that...All MOO of course...

Interesting, I would label Cindy very immature.

 

[suzihawk]

Yes, one of her last shrinks, who diagnosed her during the final days of the trial said she had no personality disorders, etc., but simply that she is very immature.
Even so, those soft issues are to be argued during the penalty phase, not the guilt phase. The guilt phase is about the facts of evidence.

I have now reached the point of being dryly amused by those who remain sucker punched by Baez's twisting of the evidence and those who "bought" it.
Despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence re FKC's guilt, sucker punched folks keep taking the same circular side roads that Baez pointed them to. Really quite extraordinary!

Baez is not a clever man, but he sure is wily...and he read this non-thinking jury much better than the SA, there is no doubt of that...All MOO of course...

I'll give you that Baez is wily, logicalgirl. But I can't give him credit for reading the jury. He just not that bright, IMO. He just got incredibly lucky (or so he thinks) that they managed to get 12 people that couldn't or wouldn't follow instructions and do their due diligence.

 

[logicalgirl]

Interesting, I would label Cindy very immature.

Well, so would I. But this trial and verdict was about FKC only - folks keep forgetting that.

 

[logicalgirl]

I'll give you that Baez is wily, logicalgirl. But I can't give him credit for reading the jury. He just not that bright, IMO. He just got incredibly lucky (or so he thinks) that they managed to get 12 people that couldn't or wouldn't follow instructions and do their due diligence.

LOL Suzihawk - agree but I was trying to be gracious....:floorlaugh:

You must be aware of what I really think of Baez by now!!! :innocent:

 

[Bon]

Exactly. And FCA was checked out--several times. If she had been suffering from anything, I'm sure her defense team would have spent more time bringing in medical witnesses instead of forensic witnesses. Some people are just evil. I keep trying to stick with the evidence that was allowed in court. I realize due to the sunshine laws I know many things the jurors didn't, but even just listening to the evidence presented, I still don't agree with the verdict. I just will never understand that verdict.

Me, either!

I am embarrassed to say this but I have not been myself since the verdict was read. It has deeply affected me. And I am trying very hard to force myself to get over it and move on.....easier said than done...

 

[MissJames]

This is really OT to the thread, and becoming nonconstructive. He acknowledged it, so IMO he stated it to be true.

To be clear: Russel Yates said ANDREA had PPD with 4 of her prior births.

Susan Smith's husband did not .Besides,SS only had 2 children.

 

[gxm]

Interesting, I would label Cindy very immature.

Perhaps. But at least she managed to hold down a job to support her family, and raise two kids without either of them ending up in a trash bag in a swamp before their third birthday. That's gotta count for something.