The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[coco puff]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

Alas the discovery channel is full of interviews with women who have confessed to killing their child/children and did not appear to grieve or even be remorseful.

 

[Sustained]

If there were no evidence of an accident (which is been said many times now), why would HHJP allow this discussion in closings? There was evidence presented of an accident.

What evidence was there of an accident ? Pictures of Caylee swimming in the pool and climbing the pool ladder ? An unsubstantiated submission by the defense that the pool ladder was left up ?

Now if there was evidence of Caylee's decompositional fluids in the pool or the ME had found chlorinated pool water in Caylee's lungs (assuming she was found much earlier) or even a 911 call where FCA hung up and police never showed up, then maybe ....

If the DT had shown a picture of Caylee riding her tricycle in the street in front of the Anthony home, is that evidence that a car ran over Caylee and killed her ?

 

[RR0004]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

Did I miss something? Where is it written that grief means hiding the death of your child? We (general term) spent a whole lot of time here in the beginning giving Casey Anthony the benefit of the doubt..yes, it is hard to accept a mother killing her own child. But over years of never having seen her grieve...or hearing anybody state they ever saw her grieve...knowing what we do know of her behavior...and in my case, knowing grief all too well...I doubt that she ever experienced it.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

Because the wealth of circumstantial evidence points to murder.

Because, as Dr G pointed out in her testimony, a mother would call for help in case of a drowning. 100% of the time. Even if there was no hope of reviving that child. 100% of the time.

Because a no one covers up an accident by faking a murder.

Because Caylee, although a joy to many, became a liability to Casey.

Because ” . . . What is given, can be taken away. Everyone lies. Everyone dies. Life will never be easy. . . . ”

 

[RR0004]

The problem with sociopathy is that the symptoms show much sooner then when you're in your early 20s. And the symptoms she has shown (lying) could also be contributed to seeing how her parents handled their problems as a child.

I believe the age of 15 is given in the criteria to diagnose; early teens it may manifest itself in conduct disorder or other acting out behaviors. I would imagine this may have led to her never completing high school.
I have actually seen it become more apparent in individuals 16-19.

 

[Apex-mom]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

WHen you didn't bond as the child's MOTHER from the beginning, ... when you had to take a backseat to the controlling GRANDMOTHER who decided everything, bought everything, made decisions regarding the baby... Casey was more like a BIG SISTER than a MOTHER, and a resentful one at that.

She hated sharing the spotlight one iota with Caylee. That's why she broke up with Jesse. She loved being the STAR when she was pregnant but then Caylee became the star and worst of all, then Caylee was prevented Casey from doing the things she WANTED to do (what she "SHOULD have been able to do" in Casey's mind) as a young twenty-something... go out... drink... party... all that jazz.

Casey wanted her freedom more than she wanted Caylee. And once Cindy threatened her with "I'll take the baby away"...Casey called her bluff, and killed Caylee. Grandma Shirley said it best "I think Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee".

:sick:

 

[Eidetic]

Yeah, but not for 31 days. Casey was not doing any kind of grieving. She filled her time between partying with scheming. If you wish to believe her lies, even she is now claiming that she hasn't grieved and is just now beginning.

This I actually believe. I remember thinking for the first time that Casey felt anything about what she did to Caylee when the states attorney's played the muted video of her and Caylee playing together on the floor. Her face made an expression I have never seen from her before and I can't even begin to describe as a tear rolled down her cheek watching herself interact with her full of life "little rock star".

She seemed deeply disturbed when confronted with detailed images and testimony of what happened to Caylee's body after she dumped it in the woods. I hope she never forgets it and it continues to haunt her in her weakest moment where she can't get away with the lies for the rest of her life, while she is sleeping.

Caylee didn't even get a funeral in her favorite dress/pair of shoes with her hair styled in her favorite way. She wasn't respectfully bathed and prepared so her family could gather around her to say goodbye and share the memories of their beloved baby. No one was able to stand on her behalf and carry her tiny lavender coffin to a marked grave.

"Maybe I'm a spiteful b*tch."
No loving mother would hide her beautiful baby away from her family and deny her even that dignity in death, especially if it had been an accident. I think if she doesn't regret taking Caylee's life because she has convinced herself Caylee is in a better place and she wasn't much of a mother to begin with, at the very least she regrets the way she treated and disregarded her remains. Beyond the ghastly testimony about Caylee's body decomposing, being chewed/dragged and sitting so long vines had begun to grow through her bones at Suburban Drive, Caylee ultimately ended up cremated. (Allegedly against her mothers wishes.)

All my opinion of course. The accused has been acquitted of the charges against her concerning her daughters homicide.

 

[beccalecca1]

Finally something we can agree upon.

Unfortunately that question does not account for the fact that mothers do kill their own children.

Beccalecca, you seem interested in the subject and I wish I had a link for you. There was a psychiatrist on TV who said that for a mother to accept the death of their child after the death happened, she had to have come to accept the death before it happened.

In his vast and professional experience, the accidental death of one's own child paralyzes the mother. She is unable to do anything and truly cannot accept it for some time. If, however, she has come to an acceptance of the child's death beforehand, it is an easy matter to accept the death afterwards. I think you would be interested in his comments and if I find it, I'll certainly pass it on to you.

I would appreciate a link if you found it, I am interested in things like this.

IMO, Casey isn't the normal griever, she isn't normal in the least bit. I believe her mind wasn't at the development stage of normal 20 years olds, therefore I believe her grief process wouldn't be that of a normal person.

To me, she acts very immature, almost like her mind stopped developing when she was younger, so she can't grasp complex adult things like adults can at her age (you have a child and you have a job, you are in contact with the father of the child because children aren't brought to you by the stork, etc.)

**I wish I could find my nursing Mental Health textbook, there was so much information in it that would pertain to the development of your mind, and the grief process, but I haven't been able to find it since I've been out of school **

 

[RR0004]

I'm not sure what the post is getting at or anything. With the posts, I feel like I'm being "schooled"... but there is no need. I've relistened and posted LE testimony of their first day there. They smelled something, but it was not concerning enough to call in CSI, figure out where this smell was coming from, and secure the car. When the car was in the tow yard, SB testified to smelling this before contacting the A's, while getting the VIN number from the car. He didn't feel the need to contact authorities then. He also didn't feel the need or urgency to contact the authorities when GA opened up the car and the smell was even stronger. GA didn't feel the need to call LE when he opened the car at the tow yard, or when he sat in the car and drove it home. He also didn't alert them when he was in the shower getting ready to go for work. CA didn't feel the need to alert the authorities before she left for work, while at work, and before she brought Casey home. GA didn't feel the need to contact Casey about the smell in the car, although he claimed relief his granddaughter and daughter were not in the trunk. So relieved he didn't want to call up his daughter, or even text her??

Keep the questions coming, that's fine. But the questions make no difference to the actions of the people who were suppose to know what human decomposition smelled like and they did nothing.

They actually believed they were dealing with a missing child. Go figure.
BTW, how does that get Casey to talk and confess that her child is dead?

 

[beccalecca1]

I believe the age of 15 is given in the criteria to diagnose; early teens it may manifest itself in conduct disorder or other acting out behaviors. I would imagine this may have led to her never completing high school.
I have actually seen it become more apparent in individuals 16-19.

In order to be diagnosed there had to be documented evidence of conduct disorder prior to the age 15. I'm not sure of anyone who can suffer "sociopathy" without being diagnosible.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

This I actually believe. I remember thinking for the first time that Casey felt anything about what she did to Caylee when the states attorney's played the muted video of her and Caylee playing together on the floor. Her face made an expression I have never seen from her before and I can't even begin to describe as a tear rolled down her cheek watching herself interact with her full of life "little rock star".

She seemed deeply disturbed when confronted with detailed images and testimony of what happened to Caylee's body after she dumped it in the woods. I hope she never forgets it and it continues to haunt her in her weakest moment where she can't get away with the lies for the rest of her life, while she is sleeping.

Caylee didn't even get a funeral in her favorite dress/pair of shoes with her hair styled in her favorite way. She wasn't respectfully bathed and prepared so her family could gather around her to say goodbye and share the memories of their beloved baby. No one was able to stand on her behalf and carry her tiny lavender coffin to a marked grave.

"Maybe I'm a spiteful b*tch."
No loving mother would hide her beautiful baby away from her family and deny her even that dignity in death, especially if it had been an accident. I think if she doesn't regret taking Caylee's life because she has convinced herself Caylee is in a better place and she wasn't much of a mother to begin with, at the very least she regrets the way she treated and disregarded her remains. Beyond the ghastly testimony about Caylee's body decomposing, being chewed/dragged and sitting so long vines had begun to grow through her bones at Suburban Drive, Caylee ultimately ended up cremated. (Allegedly against her mothers wishes.)

Eidetic, I love that your posts are always in Caylee's favorite color. Thank you. It makes me remember what all of this is supposed to be about . . .

 

[RR0004]

I would appreciate a link if you found it, I am interested in things like this.

IMO, Casey isn't the normal griever, she isn't normal in the least bit. I believe her mind wasn't at the development stage of normal 20 years olds, therefore I believe her grief process wouldn't be that of a normal person.

To me, she acts very immature, almost like her mind stopped developing when she was younger, so she can't grasp complex adult things like adults can at her age (you have a child and you have a job, you are in contact with the father of the child because children aren't brought to you by the stork, etc.)

**I wish I could find my nursing Mental Health textbook, there was so much information in it that would pertain to the development of your mind, and the grief process, but I haven't been able to find it since I've been out of school **

There is no age determining factor that I know of when it comes to the grieving process...even young children go through different stages. Are you saying she is mentally delayed and therefore would be unaffected in the way that most otherwise unimpaired folks are? Personally, I would love to see her leave her brain to science. There have been some great brain studies on sociopathy with live candidates...who knows what they could find if they were able to study and dissect the sociopath's brain.
Does anyone know if this is being done?

 

[RR0004]

In order to be diagnosed there had to be documented evidence of conduct disorder prior to the age 15. I'm not sure of anyone who can suffer "sociopathy" without being diagnosible.

Google is my friend as well. That's exactly what I said or implied...

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

 

[RR0004]

In order to be diagnosed there had to be documented evidence of conduct disorder prior to the age 15. I'm not sure of anyone who can suffer "sociopathy" without being diagnosible.

Here ya go...see above.

RR0004-

I believe the age of 15 is given in the criteria to diagnose; early teens it may manifest itself in conduct disorder or other acting out behaviors. I would imagine this may have led to her never completing high school.
I have actually seen it become more apparent in individuals 16-19. http://websleuths.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=6972756

 

[RR0004]

It is called complicated grieving because they needed to define something to make money off of. They are really making an industry off of grief now days. Specialist everywhere with all kinds of definitions.

Try to pin them down on a real definition is like reaching in a barrel of eels. Ashton did a great job pointing that out by getting her to admit any response, any reaction by a person could fall into the spectrum of grieving.

In the sense that it is generally considered prolonged grief...there are some new studies underway that hopefully will serve a very useful purpose.
In Casey's case...they tried anything to make it fit her psychological profile. Notice how they didn't want any (highly) regarded doctor's testimony admitted (yes, yes, I know...no mental defense and all that). The State would have had a field day with it...IMO.

 

[DesSands]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

I'm coming into this discussion alittle late, but I wanted to add my take. That is a question I personally could not answer, how one could birth a child and not grieve over their death. Thank God I've never had to experience this, but I do know they'd have to put me in a straight jacket for awhile and my 4 boys are all grown.
I over protected them and worried way too much.
But in retrospect Susan Smith put on a very sad face when she drowned her children. I told my dh that she was putting it on. Sure enough she was.
KC is kind of like a duck, lets things roll right off her back. Not sure if not feeling is a good or bad thing.
I do believe if you are not able to feel, then you can NOT love. I also know that she can lie and feign tears. I noticed if she rubbed her nose long enough, her face finally turned red. So I guess that was the grief stage for her, in court? She saved it all up for the jury and they bought into that as remorse? And the lil electified hair do, inebriated jumping up and down attorney that held her ever so close. Sold it !! :loser:

 

[DesSands]

P.S. Outside of my earlier post, when did she grieve? After more than 3 yrs. of following this case, you mean to tell me I missed that?
:great:

 

[Peepers]

how she did or did not grieve isnt evidence of a crime in a court of law. just sayin..

 

[yolorado]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

Because ALL of the perpetrators actions and words (up until trial) and a pile of objective evidence support theory 1 that she is a murderer, and in turn discount theory 2.... In fact other than that her lawyer said it, there is nothing else, anywhere, to suggest accident. There is a mountain of proof to indicate otherwise.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

how she did or did not grieve isnt evidence of a crime in a court of law. just sayin..

Agreed. But confusing consciousness of guilt with grieving does have import in a court of law.