The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[LinTX]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

It's not easier emotionally, which is what I expect you're going for. But drowning typically leads to an EMT and real grief, not 31 days of partying. Then there's all that pesky evidence during the trial that's really hard for some of us to ignore - others find that really easy, apparently.

 

[beccalecca1]

Complicated grieving is more often than not extended or prolonged grieving...grieving past what's considered the "normal" period of time. We (general term) can always try and make something fit...but in this case, with Casey...her sociopathy fits just as easily in explaining her behavior. Considering she lied, stole, demonstrated a lack of empathy for anyone including her family, and had a daughter who ended up dead...I think the later has a better fit.

The problem with sociopathy is that the symptoms show much sooner then when you're in your early 20s. And the symptoms she has shown (lying) could also be contributed to seeing how her parents handled their problems as a child.

 

[beccalecca1]

According to the link, any action or inaction can be a sign of grieving. What a stroke of luck for KC.

I simply can't buy that the act of lying about the demise of your baby to police and family can be called grieving.

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

Because that is what all the evidence pointed to. There was no evidence of an accident or any testimony to an accident.

Why would a person even want to entertain that possibility?

 

[beccalecca1]

It is called complicated grieving because they needed to define something to make money off of. They are really making an industry off of grief now days. Specialist everywhere with all kinds of definitions.

Try to pin them down on a real definition is like reaching in a barrel of eels. Ashton did a great job pointing that out by getting her to admit any response, any reaction by a person could fall into the spectrum of grieving.

If this person is suffering a loss, yes.

 

[Sustained]

The problem with sociopathy is that the symptoms show much sooner then when you're in your early 20s. And the symptoms she has shown (lying) could also be contributed to seeing how her parents handled their problems as a child.

And how do you know that the sociopathic symptoms didn't show up much earlier and were ignored by the A's ?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

Monsters do it all the time. The prisons are full of them.

 

[beccalecca1]

Because that is what all the evidence pointed to. There was no evidence of an accident or any testimony to an accident.

Why would a person even want to entertain that possibility?

If there were no evidence of an accident (which is been said many times now), why would HHJP allow this discussion in closings? There was evidence presented of an accident.

 

[RANCH]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

Because the evidence shows it was a murder and not an accident?

 

[RR0004]

The A's heard it from their attorney. They stated so in trial.

We are talking about 2 different things...here ya go...Cindy heard from the media (somebody) that Caylee may have drowned...it's written out...but you can go back and watch the jailhouse video...plus...Dad also mentions how they've tried to raise bail (for anyone who's interested).

http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-jailhouse-tapes-show-toll-cindy-anthony/story?id=13753278

"I'm not doing well...Lee's [Casey Anthony's brother] been sick...Dad's blowing up at the media...somebody just said that Caylee's dead, she drowned in the family pool," said Cindy Anthony in a jailhouse conversation on Aug.14, 2008.

 

[suzihawk]

Why is it easier to think a mother murdered her child, drove around with her for a few days, then dumped her child in a swamp..... and not easier to think the child accidently drowned?

Because all the evidence is this case suggests that this mother murdered her child. There is NO evidence to suggest there was an accidental drowning.

My question is how many times are we all going to go round and round about it? Obviously no one is going to convince you it was murder. Certainly no one will ever convince me (and others) otherwise. Isn't it time we agree to disagree and call it a day?

 

[beccalecca1]

And how do you know that the sociopathic symptoms didn't show up much earlier and were ignored by the A's ?

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
D. Repeated assaults on others.
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

 

[Dr.Fessel]

If there were no evidence of an accident (which is been said many times now), why would HHJP allow this discussion in closings? There was evidence presented of an accident.

There was no evidence of an accident.

 

[RANCH]

If there were no evidence of an accident (which is been said many times now), why would HHJP allow this discussion in closings? There was evidence presented of an accident.

What evidence? A picture of Caylee on the pool ladder?A picture of the ladder attached to the pool?A picture of Caylee at the back slider showing her reaching for the door handle?Proves little if you ask me.

 

[jandkmom]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

Let's look at her behavior before Caylee died.

How could she make up a nanny?

How could she make up a job?

How could she say someone was Caylee's father when he wasn't?

How could she fake e-mails from a fake boss?

How could she fake a deposit slip?

How could she steal from her mom?

How could she steal from her grandmother?

Her issues have nothing to do with grieving.

 

[Apex-mom]

Facts not disputible.

Fact: KC said that she had a Nanny. (even prior to the whole kidnapping story)
Fact: KC lied about having a Nanny.

Fact: KC said she had a job.
Fact: KC lied about having a job.

Fact: KC said that JH had a son Zach.
Fact: KC lied about JH having a son Zach.

Fact: KC gave elaborate details about Zanny and her relatives, where she lived, what she looked like, etc,
Fact: KC lied about all those things.

Fact: KC said that Caylee was with Zanny.
Fact: KC lied about where Caylee was.

Fact: KC said she spoke to Caylee during the 31 days.
Fact: KC lied, Caylee was already dead.

Fact: KC said she knew in her gut that Caylee was alive.
Fact: KC lied, she knew Caylee was already dead.

Fact: KC claimed that Caylee was forcefully taken from her at Park
Fact: KC lied about the park abduction.

Fact: KC told AH she must have been sleep walking and mislaid her money.
Fact: KC lied to AH, she stole her money.

In fact, KC lied about every aspect of her life. Especially, when it benefitted her or when she was trapped.

However, for some reason I can not fathom, we are to believe her when she tells a story, which if believed will benefit her and free her.

Let's say it again, SHE LIES WHEN IT WILL BENEFIT HER THE MOST OR WHEN SHE IS TRAPPED!

Fact: KC claims she was molested.
Fact: You fill in the space this time.

Fact: KC claims Caylee drowned.
Fact: You fill in the space....

BEST. POST. EVER.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[RR0004]

If there were no evidence of an accident (which is been said many times now), why would HHJP allow this discussion in closings? There was evidence presented of an accident.

There was a picture, there was the media, there was her mentioning it to LE (the ladder incident did not happen on 6/16 according to Cindy...and sorry, I don't feel like going and looking that up, perhaps someone else will)..so as much of a stretch that it was...at least there was "something" compared to the sex abuse allegation where there was "nothing". This is what we call throw everything at the wall and see what sticks defense.

 

[Italy]

It is what it is though. That is grief, you can't look at a guide on how to grieve and do it. There isn't doubt in my mind she was grieving... how could you birth a child and not grieve over her death?

Finally something we can agree upon.

Unfortunately that question does not account for the fact that mothers do kill their own children.

Beccalecca, you seem interested in the subject and I wish I had a link for you. There was a psychiatrist on TV who said that for a mother to accept the death of their child after the death happened, she had to have come to accept the death before it happened.

In his vast and professional experience, the accidental death of one's own child paralyzes the mother. She is unable to do anything and truly cannot accept it for some time. If, however, she has come to an acceptance of the child's death beforehand, it is an easy matter to accept the death afterwards. I think you would be interested in his comments and if I find it, I'll certainly pass it on to you.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

OT

For anyone following the Amber Elkins case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145831&page=2&highlight=amber+elkins

 

[sweetmop]

Let's look at her behavior before Caylee died.

How could she make up a nanny?

How could she make up a job?

How could she say someone was Caylee's father when he wasn't?

How could she fake e-mails from a fake boss?

How could she fake a deposit slip?

How could she steal from her mom?

How could she steal from her grandmother?

Her issues have nothing to do with grieving.

You've summed it all up!
Great post!:seeya: