The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[Little Black Dress]

This is bothering me too. I have a ton of respect for HHJBP and I'm trying to put the pieces together so they make some sense.

Would an investigation of JB look like sour grapes? I hope we are both wrong about this, but I'll be really surprised.


I'm also questioning what (if anything) Judge Perry's other responsibilities had to do with the end result...

We know there was a concern about the cost of the trial, we know FL is in the same bad shape as all the rest, we know Judge Perry has a lot of responsibility (including the financial aspects) with the Judicial System in the district.

Didn't the state float OC a loan to have the trial as scheduled?

Is it possible the budget constraints are (in a backwards kind of way) somewhat responsible for the NG verdict?

Is it even remotely possible that Judge Perry believed there was no way any jury with 12 conscious adults would vote to acquit, so he pushed the jury selection through irregardless of some troublesome comments made during voir dire?

So many questions, so few answers...

I too, have a lot of respect for Judge Perry. As the trial progressed, I kept wondering why he was so concerned about the repeated delays, many of which appeared to be unnecessary and 'by design'. But then I came to realize that in addition to other things, Judge Perry well understood the risk to the deliberation process in having any jury sequestered for too long a time.

I see now that he was right to be concerned about that.

JMO.

 

[Baznme]

Also, The state's witness was reporting on a qualitative study, not quantitative study. IMO, that means the state was only testing for the presence of chloroform, while the defense's witness was testing to the amount of chloroform.

Agreed.

I understand what Dr. G said, but I disagree with it. The only thing the duct tape was adhered to was the hair mat. The hair mat had slipped down to the base of the skull, so where did it originate? Possibly the top of the skull? Well, why would there be tape stuck to the hair at the top of the skull? Perhaps the tape was never across the nose/mouth area, but was near the open end of the garbage bag and just got stuck to her hair. IMO of course. It's hard to figure it out without seeing the pictures, but I don't want to see the pictures either.

This is a very brave statement to make in light of Dr. G's expertise. I tend to believe what the good Dr. said as opposed to your theory. As much hair that was embedded IN the duct tape clearly showed to the average person this wasn't to seal a garbage bag.


Actually, I disagree. There was wet paper products found in that garbage bag, and they got wet somehow. I doubt when paper products sit in a hot drunk for 2+ weeks they decompose into a fluid. Not following your thought here.....at all. What liquified? Also, there were maggots found attracted to the paper towels and a plastic food tray in the bag. Maggots don't feed off of paper and plastic. True, but there was "grave wax" on the paper towels IIRC that accounted for the maggots. We're talking 100's of maggots according to one of the discovery documents released (I could link it if you'd like, I'd just have to back to the previous thread and search it).




Again, I disagree that a vacuum you stick quarters in, or a household vacuum is able to collect all evidence of 1st colonizers. You're going to miss something (maybe a blowfly leg, maybe a wing, etc). CSI, IMO, went over that trunk with a fine tooth comb. There is nothing more to be found in the liner. And, the fact that Caylee's remains were found with 75 carcasses of first colonizers, I have to wonder where the other 225 went (it was said that one blowfly lays 300 eggs). I doubt you can vacuum all evidence of the 225.

I believe there was testimony that many many flies came out of the trunk when opened at the tow yard. This is a possible explanation and as far as where the other 225 went, I don't suppose the body floating in a swamp and spread around by animals had anything to do with it?

I honestly find it hard to believe that these people went through trial with the idea "come on already, lets get this over with". This was a trial involving a dead child; I'm sure they took their job seriously. I also don't believe they just made whatever decision they could so they could quickly go back home. These people are receiving death threats. This case has affected them also. And, not a single one of them signed up to be on this case, IMO they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. They were summoned to the court, if they were able to make a unbiased decision on this case they were chosen. I believe it is completely unfair for those who don't like the verdict to be treating them like they are. MOO

There were a couple of jurors that stated they "would like to be on this jury". That's neither here nor there. They still should not be receiving death threats. This is descipable behavior even though I do not feel they did their job to the best of their ability. But, that could be a bad call on my part. Maybe that was their best. Some can't give of themselves what they don't have.


Snipped and quoted in sections to make it easier to read.

BBM - My responses in red.

 

[sacrablue]

I picture KC telling Caylee, "Guess where we're going today?"

Caylee: "Hmm?"

KC: "Going to see Zanny! Yay!!!!" (In other words, I'm going to kill you today)

Then, when they walked out of the bedroom toward the door, Caylee was already prepped.

Caylee is leaving with Casey for the last time from the A's house observed by George. George says Caylee remarks we are going to see Zannie. Did Casey teach her to say that? Did Caylee take a pill and become fluent in English? Caylee has never laid eyes on Zanny, why is she now emitting such amazements? I am suprised Ashton didn't jump all over this and nip the bs fantasy at the bud but it was out of control by then.

 

[eleni777]

Caylee is leaving with Casey for the last time from the A's house observed by George. George says Caylee remarks we are going to see Zannie. Did Casey teach her to say that? Did Caylee take a pill and become fluent in English? Caylee has never laid eyes on Zanny, why is she now emitting such amazements? I am suprised Ashton didn't jump all over this and nip the bs fantasy at the bud but it was out of control by then.

We've been had, played, duped and conned.
George, Cindy, Casey and Lee, are CON ARTISTS.

The lying and manipulation didn't just manifest with Casey.
Casey learned this behavior from her parents -- Cindy Specifically.
Then perfected it to a pathological level.

 

[sacrablue]

Why I think Caylee did not drown.
June 15
Cindy lays down the law to Casey in an epic fight neighbors even here.
Cindy is going to take Caylee away from unfit Casey.
Casey is going to pay for the stealing.
Baby sitting is turning into a nightmare for Casey.
Caylee is beginning to talk and worry Casey.
The walls of reality are closing in on Casey.


June 16
Caylee drowns

 

[natsound]

Caylee is leaving with Casey for the last time from the A's house observed by George. George says Caylee remarks we are going to see Zannie. Did Casey teach her to say that? Did Caylee take a pill and become fluent in English? Caylee has never laid eyes on Zanny, why is she now emitting such amazements? I am suprised Ashton didn't jump all over this and nip the bs fantasy at the bud but it was out of control by then.

I'm not really arguing with you.. I don't know if GA told the truth regarding that or not... but first of all, what would be his motive to lie in that instance, and also, Caylee did execute a sentence during the Mt. Dora trip... something ending with "papa".

 

[eleni777]

Why I think Caylee did not drown.
June 15
Cindy lays down the law to Casey in an epic fight neighbors even here.
Cindy is going to take Caylee away from unfit Casey.
Casey is going to pay for the stealing.
Baby sitting is turning into a nightmare for Casey.
Caylee is beginning to talk and worry Casey.
The walls of reality are closing in on Casey.


June 16
Caylee drowns

You mean:
Caylee is DROWNED..
because it was no accident...

 

[surfinsue1029]

Here is why I do not think it was an accidental drowning:

You don't sit in jail for 3 years in solitary confinement......prepare a case with death penalty experts (just in case the jury and judge decide to give you the death penalty)....then decide to wait until your trial starts to take the chance of a guilty verdict and possibly death to decide to come forward with "It was an accident". How, how, how did the jury not see this??????? They forgot one thing! The "common sense" factor in their decision.

 

[sacrablue]

Here is why I do not think it was an accidental drowning:

You don't sit in jail for 3 years in solitary confinement......prepare a case with death penalty experts (just in case the jury and judge decide to give you the death penalty)....then decide to wait until your trial starts to take the chance of a guilty verdict and possibly death to decide to come forward with "It was an accident". How, how, how did the jury not see this??????? They forgot one thing! The "common sense" factor in their decision.

Very embarrassing. Baez was laying on the snow job to the point the big picture vanished. "Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury" with Baez's 's' eating grin is all it took. Fake tears and hugging, blow hard Mason, Mr. smooth Baez and the ship sinks in the harbor. I will never understand it.

 

[coco puff]

If she said it is an accident, shouldn't she be able to explain how Caylee got from the pool to the swamp with duct tape embedded in her hair and holding her mandible in place? Wouldn't she want to explain it? Where is the logic here? Why are there so many people that want to explain it for her while she sits back and says NOTHING. I guess that is why in closing statements, JB say that we will never know what happend to Caylee. FKC is not talking..... still.

 

[Sustained]

Now, for me, I don't break all these things apart to come to my conclusion. It's her behavior + her lying about it + not reporting it + where Caylee was found + the items from the house + the smell of the car. I just don't believe, in my core, that someone reacting to an accidental death would do the things FCA did. But that's just me.

Generally speaking, if it was an accident or someone else was responsible, she would have reported it. She knew right from wrong.

Don't act like you're guilty, people won't think you're guilty. :twocents:

Thank you, Sustained, for providing the great list for me to jump off of, and Who_What_When for posing the question! :clap:

Entire post = MOO

And thank you for the perfect summarization !

 

[beccalecca1]

This is a very brave statement to make in light of Dr. G's expertise. I tend to believe what the good Dr. said as opposed to your theory. As much hair that was embedded IN the duct tape clearly showed to the average person this wasn't to seal a garbage bag.

Like I said, I understand Dr. G's reasoning, and I'm not discrediting her expertise. If I had to view the crime scene I would feel the same. But, I didn't view the crime scene. I don't have nearly as much emotion attached to the case as someone who was personally investigating the case. I'm gifted with the ability to be outside the box and look inside. I cannot understand how tape would be attached to hair mat that has presumably fallen from the top of the skull, and the draped over the nose/face area (not attached... "covering" the area), and this is suppose to mean that Caylee was suffocated and the proof is right there. I just can't come to that conclusion.

Not following your thought here.....at all. What liquified?

Exactly. What caused liquidation if the assumption that everything found in the bag was paper and plastic products. The trash in the bag was wet. It was placed in a drying room because of this. But, how would it have gotten wet if the only thing in the bag was paper/plastic. Those items do not decompose in a liquid by sitting in a hot trunk for 2+ weeks. It just doesn't happen.

True, but there was "grave wax" on the paper towels IIRC that accounted for the maggots.

There were chemicals consistent with "grave wax" (adipocere); but the maggots were also found in a plastic food tray, and we're talking 100's of maggots. (I'm going to find the link to the discovery document and "ETA" it at the end of this post.)

I believe there was testimony that many many flies came out of the trunk when opened at the tow yard. This is a possible explanation and as far as where the other 225 went, I don't suppose the body floating in a swamp and spread around by animals had anything to do with it?

I don't remember SB saying many many flies. I don't recall the exact words he used, but I believed it to be something like "a lot". To me, a lot of flies could equal 20. I'd have to re-listen to his testimony, but I don't recall an emphasis on the amount of flies. And as far as the other 225 floating away in the swamp, I would have to presume that immediately after death Caylee was placed there. I'm referring to the first colonizers. If you can assume that within 2 weeks her body would've skeletonized, then the first colonizers wouldn't have been there that long (possibly 1-3 days after death?). So, why would they have been in the swamp and washed away?

There were a couple of jurors that stated they "would like to be on this jury". That's neither here nor there. They still should not be receiving death threats. This is descipable behavior even though I do not feel they did their job to the best of their ability. But, that could be a bad call on my part. Maybe that was their best. Some can't give of themselves what they don't have.

I do agree this is despicable behavior. I don't agree with the insinuation that if they were smarter, paid more attention, etc that they would've come up with a decision that matched the majority. This was their decision, and they based it on the what they thought was the best they could come up with given the instructions, testimony, and evidence. IMO, this doesn't mean they didn't do a good job.


Snipped and quoted in sections to make it easier to read.

ETA: Entimology report including trash bag items/description http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977...ymology-Report

 

[jon_burrows]

If she said it is an accident, shouldn't she be able to explain how Caylee got from the pool to the swamp with duct tape embedded in her hair and holding her mandible in place? Wouldn't she want to explain it? Where is the logic here? Why are there so many people that want to explain it for her while she sits back and says NOTHING. I guess that is why in closing statements, JB say that we will never know what happend to Caylee. FKC is not talking..... still.

There was no logic.

JB went into great detail telling the jurors what happened...right down to yelling 'look what you did, your mother will never forgive you and you'll spend the rest of your life in freak'n jail'. Then Casey cried and cried and cried and cried and cried and cried. Now that alone is unreasonable. The jury was shown pictures of the A's house and they could see how close those houses were to each other. The last thing a former LE would do is hold a dead body he planned to conceal while yelling. It would only take one neighbor to hear the yelling and come over to help, especially with FCA crying so much.

BBM- JB completely turned the story around and said they'll never know what happened to her. Huh? He already told them exactly what happened. I can't believe one juror didn't pick up on that. FCA is his client and she is sitting right there. She even wrote down exactly what happened and LDB told them they could read her entire written statement but the jury didn't bother.

IMO

 

[jon_burrows]

Oh I don't know about that - I think he was as disgusted with this verdict as most of us were.

I hope you're right.

IMO

 

[Baznme]

Like I said, I understand Dr. G's reasoning, and I'm not discrediting her expertise. If I had to view the crime scene I would feel the same. But, I didn't view the crime scene. I don't have nearly as much emotion attached to the case as someone who was personally investigating the case. I'm gifted with the ability to be outside the box and look inside. I cannot understand how tape would be attached to hair mat that has presumably fallen from the top of the skull, and the draped over the nose/face area (not attached... "covering" the area), and this is suppose to mean that Caylee was suffocated and the proof is right there. I just can't come to that conclusion.


Exactly. What caused liquidation if the assumption that everything found in the bag was paper and plastic products. The trash in the bag was wet. It was placed in a drying room because of this. But, how would it have gotten wet if the only thing in the bag was paper/plastic. Those items do not decompose in a liquid by sitting in a hot trunk for 2+ weeks. It just doesn't happen.



There were chemicals consistent with "grave wax" (adipocere); but the maggots were also found in a plastic food tray, and we're talking 100's of maggots. (I'm going to find the link to the discovery document and "ETA" it at the end of this post.)


I don't remember SB saying many many flies. I don't recall the exact words he used, but I believed it to be something like "a lot". To me, a lot of flies could equal 20. I'd have to re-listen to his testimony, but I don't recall an emphasis on the amount of flies. And as far as the other 225 floating away in the swamp, I would have to presume that immediately after death Caylee was placed there. I'm referring to the first colonizers. If you can assume that within 2 weeks her body would've skeletonized, then the first colonizers wouldn't have been there that long (possibly 1-3 days after death?). So, why would they have been in the swamp and washed away?




I do agree this is despicable behavior. I don't agree with the insinuation that if they were smarter, paid more attention, etc that they would've come up with a decision that matched the majority. This was their decision, and they based it on the what they thought was the best they could come up with given the instructions, testimony, and evidence. IMO, this doesn't mean they didn't do a good job.


Snipped and quoted in sections to make it easier to read.

ETA: Entimology report including trash bag items/description http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977...ymology-Report

BBM - It's one thing to disagree on certain points but quite another to misunderstand what I have said and then not even ask for clarification. I never said they weren't smart, didn't pay attention enough to comeup with a decision that matched the majority. If they didn't "GET IT", they didn't get it. That's all I meant.

I'm not going to argue points on the evidence as opposed to hypothetical analyzations. It just doesn't serve any purpose at this point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there was a murder here and it had nothing to do with anyone but Casey. Whether I agree or not on the verdict still leaves the fact that she got away with it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

[beccalecca1]

BBM - It's one thing to disagree on certain points but quite another to misunderstand what I have said and then not even ask for clarification. I never said they weren't smart, didn't pay attention enough to comeup with a decision that matched the majority. If they didn't "GET IT", they didn't get it. That's all I meant.

I'm not going to argue points on the evidence as opposed to hypothetical analyzations. It just doesn't serve any purpose at this point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there was a murder here and it had nothing to do with anyone but Casey. Whether I agree or not on the verdict still leaves the fact that she got away with it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

I didn't direct that at you, I directed that at those who argue those points about the jurors.

 

[1Chump]

Yet another version by GA. What is it GA, Caylee looked at you confused if someone asked about Zanny or this story, Caylee told you "going to see Zanny"??? He lies as much as his daughter. JMO

There is no way Caylee said that...there was no Zannie, so who on earth would be she be referring to? If Caylee was going to say anything, she might have blurted out the truth, we are going to sit in Mommy's car all day, or whatever the heck they did...

IMO, he lied to show that a living Caylee left with Casey. I still think that Caylee died the night before. The only testimony I believed was Cindy testifying that while looking at pictures/videos of Caylee and her Great Grandpa she was crying because she realized Caylee would NEVER see her Great Grandpa again.

 

[1Chump]

IMO, the author knows there will always be a dispute between experts from the State and the defense. It happens in any trial like this with circumstantial evidence. He talks about all of the factors pointing to FCA's consciousness of guilt as evidence the jury obviously overlooked.
I could have thrown out all of the experts' testimony and the testimony by the A's. To convict her of aggravated child abuse and felony murder, all I would have needed is :

1) FCA not reporting Caylee missing for 31 days
2) FCA's behavior during those 31 days
3) FCA lying to police
4) No 911 call to police suggesting an accident
5) Smell of death in the Sunfire
6) Bella Vita tattoo
7) Caylee found in woods with objects from Anthony home

All of that and a little common sense and FCA would be sitting in a 6x8 cell at Lowell CI right now.

IMO, the problem with Casey's behavior showing her consciousness of guilt during those 31 days is that the State NEVER presented her behavior as consciousness of guilt. According to the State, she acted the way she did because it was her reason for killing Caylee. According to the defense, she was grieving by denying Caylee was dead.

IMO, the defense proved beyond a reasonable doubt that George and Cindy denied the reality of the pg. Cindy denied that there was no Zany until 6 weeks before trial.

IMO, if the State has used her behavior as consciousness of guilt, it would have been more believable than as motive.

 

[1Chump]

(Post broken down into 1 thru 4 for clarity.)

The defense obviously planted reasonable doubt, because 3+ weeks have gone by and we still have people hashing out what the evidence/experts did or didn't prove.

(1) Chloroform: The States witness was reporting on chloroform in the trunk's AIR, while the DT compared levels ON the carpet (apples and oranges).

(2) Duct-tape - according to Dr G the tape had to be placed before decomposition began, otherwise it would not have held the mandible in place. The jury really believed that just by chance that duct tape ended up wrapped across Caylee's little face and into her hair? Or more unbelievable, someone came across the remains, found a hair mat, found the skull, found the mandible, had access to GA's tape (aged it to look like it had been in the swamp for 6 months) and set the stage to make it look like Caylee had been duct tapped all along.

(3) There was no spoiled food in the trunk, that theory was debunked!

(4) The trunk had been cleaned by CA and probably by CFCA, in an attempt to alleviate the horrible smell. Wouldn't it make sense that a vacuum may have been used (the kind you drop a couple quarters in)? As lazy as I believe CFCA is, I also believe she would have attempted to fix this little problem before she just abandoned the car completely.

Re BBM

Having followed this case from Day 31 (like many here), reading, studying, learning along the way about all of the discovery, I expected the jury to do the same. That was their "job", to understand what the state and the DT laid out for them, decide what made sense from what didn't make sense and connect the dots. We know they didn't do this. They didn't even attempt to do this!

After a lot of reflection I believe this trial (with this jury) could have been completed in 4 days tops - Opening Statements, Closing Statements (with a few sidebars thrown in for good measure), then 10 hours for deliberations. They could have skipped all the witnesses, evidence and Juror instructions completely because based on their own statements they disregarded everything anyway!

I still have not reconciled in my own mind how this happened. Not the verdict, that I get, the Pinellas 12 wanted the trial to be over, they wanted to go home (or on their cruises/Disney vaca's) What I don't get is how 12 people could make the decision to blow off their duty to the VICTIM, without any attempt to actually deliberate, discuss or inspect the evidence for themselves. Before I could find someone NG I would have to look at everything just to be sure I hadn't missed something important, just exactly the same way I would before handing down a GUILTY verdict. The defendant and the VICTIM deserve no less.

The jury has not duty to the victim. A trial is really not about the victim. The trial is about the defendant and the defendant's rights. The only duties the jury has is to follow the Constitution and Laws which weigh heavily in favor of the defendant. Because the defendant does not have to do anything or prove anything. The defendant is presumed innocent.

The State has the duty to prove that the defendant is guilty. So while we all are sad that a little girl has died. It was NEVER about Caylee. It was about proving that Casey and only Casey was responsible for Caylee's death beyond a reasonable doubt. It is a heavy burden for the State to prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

IMO, in this case, they failed.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

IMO, the problem with Casey's behavior showing her consciousness of guilt during those 31 days is that the State NEVER presented her behavior as consciousness of guilt. According to the State, she acted the way she did because it was her reason for killing Caylee. According to the defense, she was grieving by denying Caylee was dead.

IMO, the defense proved beyond a reasonable doubt that George and Cindy denied the reality of the pg. Cindy denied that there was no Zany until 6 weeks before trial.

IMO, if the State has used her behavior as consciousness of guilt, it would have been more believable than as motive.

The State did show her behavior as consciousness of guilt.

Approx 17 minutes in:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHk9qxAg0ic&feature=player_detailpage#t=1008s"]‪Casey Anthony Trial: State's Rebuttal Part 4‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]