The Verdict is In - post your thoughts here

[cody100]

UNC70 thank you for expressing why the public is so outraged and upset with this case. I think in many cases it is the method in which the result was obtained. You show immense insight and valued information. I hope you will join us on JY case although I doubt there will be this level of differences in opinions.

 

[unc70]

The continued references on the news and in this thread to the value of the Google Maps search as damaging evindence is making me a little crazy (or crazier). You guys are probably right that it was damaging to BC. It was troubling and suspicious. But it's true value as evidence has been greatly overstated to both the public and apparently to the jury.

Do me a favor. Do a Google Maps search of your own address. Then walk out in your front yard and compare the image on your computer screen with the real life image around you. What will be glaringly obvious to you is that the computer image, in the vast majority of cases, is decidely different from the reality around you, just as the current forested Google Maps image of what exists on Fielding Drive, is deciedly different than the new houses, playground, etc... that are actually there. This would have been obvious to BC as well. No one in their right mind would use Google Maps to pick, preview, or view a spot to dump a body.

I have no doubt that this piece of evidence damaged BC, largely because it was not adequately rebutted, but the Google Maps search, in truth, proved very little.

The first I remember locally where the smoking gun was a Google search a few days before the murder for where the body was found was the trial of Robert Petrick, another computer expert, over in Durham.

How often does this happen elsewhere, or is this just some local weirdness?

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

I think it possible both sides use bloggers to make some adjustments. That shockingly goes both ways. Why I heard WS posters mention their involvement in trials before. Can't have it both ways. I doubt Kurtz used this significantly if he only read 20 or so bloggers. Again read my other post, and please read UNC70. I believe he sums up public outrage better than anyone else.

I did read his post, cody. And heh heh ... I seriously don't believe there is quite "public outrage" as you prefer to term it, lol. Makes it sounds as though the city of Cary is about to march in protest. The exact opposite, methinks. Tho I agree there is a minority upset Brad finally met his just desserts. Again, subtle but acute difference there, my friend.

Those upset may include law students, people with an axe to bear against LE, some who just like to argue, some who don't get the "full trial process", a couple who are not au fait with the geek-speak ... and maybe one friend BC may have left. Oh ... and his def atties, of course.

They'll get over it.

LOGIC, circumstantial evidence played as crucial a role here aside from BC's spoofed and faked calls, his dumped router and his Googling the very site wher NC was found.

Straightforward.... IMO

 

[cody100]

Hey Cody - snipped for space.

There's a *major* difference when a judge bans electronic communication devices in his courtroom and yes, he was aware of JW visiting W/S -----> to a def atty RELYING on real-time blog updates .... AND AMENDING HIS STATEMENTS ACCORDINGLY.

What was he doing with his $85 p/hr as RPD so kindly pointed out for the last 30 plus months? That's diabolical, n my opinion. Absolutely amazing and yet Kurtz must be so happy with it - he didn't realize how his words translated. I'd freak out if that were my atty. That's like admitting he wasn't up to speed, was dropping the ball - and would LITERALLY clutch at any teensie straw - even if it was an anon comment off an Internet blog. I am prely gobsmacked at this info.

Utterly stunned.

And .... everyone up in arms about his expert denied the right to testify? Well - that was ANOTHER late-night straw Kurtz clutched because his witness (JW) was, like it or lump it, not appropriately qualified. So last minute brings in a.n.other? All of this needed to have been sorted out and approved on both sides in pre-trial discovery.

Kurtz makes a total mockery of his qualifications, know-how and management in the world of defense attorneys, IMO.......of course and as always.

We simply will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am utterly stunned that everyone is so defensive over the map. By your own comments, the map was really not the major point of evidence for you. . Why do some of you feel the need to attack Kurtz so heavily? If he and his ideas are insignificant, why just not even discuss them. Me thinks people protest too strongly. All of the map evidence from both sides should have been let in IMO, and then there would never have been such a dichotomy of opinions on how this case played out. And, I do not think this will go away quickly MOO. I did not get the impression that Kurtz made decisions on the blogger's reactions. I will go back and hear it again. And RPD and I did discuss the money situation which is irrelevant in this discussion. Got some wine for me?

 

[cody100]

I did read his post, cody. And heh heh ... I seriously don't believe there is quite "public outrage" as you prefer to term it, lol. Makes it sounds as though the city of Cary is about to march in protest. The exact opposite, methinks. Tho I agree there is a minority upset Brad finally met his just desserts. Again, subtle but acute difference there, my friend.

Those upset may include law students, people with an axe to bear against LE, some who just like to argue, some who don't get the "full trial process", a couple who are not au fait with the geek-speak ... and maybe one friend BC may have left. Oh ... and his def atties, of course.

They'll get over it.

LOGIC, circumstantial evidence played as crucial a role here aside from BC's spoofed and faked calls, his dumped router and his Googling the very site wher NC was found.

Straightforward.... IMO

I believe it was Bottle that brought up half of Cary. I assume she believes everyone is from Cary. But half of Cary would be public outrage so talk to Bottle about that. I think it is more than just the parties you mentioned. There is absolutely no proof of faked calls or dumped router, and well, the googling of the map we have beat to death. If we take away these three items, surely there is enough and more evidence to get a guilty verdict if the Map is not important. And so, if the map isn't important, again why the defensive posturing and objections by BZ ? Just let it in. It is like winning a game but having questionable calls. All of this is JMO.

 

[unc70]

1) We don't know exactly what she ate and when she last ate. We don't know exactly what she drank and when she last had a drink. She was a runner and had Crohn's disease. These things might make it difficult to judge stomach contents and alcohol level...especially after sitting in the hot sun for 2 -3 days.

2) The only sure way to erase all traces of an event on a computer...is to wipe the drive clean by overwriting it completely numerous times. Can't do that when it's your work computer though, right?

3) The FBI agent told the jury 10 ways that such a call could be spoofed and we know he had the router to do it in Jan 2008 and it was never returned to Cisco. Yes, the prosecution would have been better served to have someone actually do it...would have been very powerful....but they made some mistakes as we all know.

4) Rosemary Zednik and Food Lion guy contradicted each other on the time they saw her. Rosemary should have seen her first, at 7:10am, which she was adamant about. Food Lion guy should have seen her 10-11 mins later at 7:20am (1.5 miles away). He said he saw her between 6:55am and 7:10am. Someone is clearly mistaken and they both could have easily been.

The Food Lion guy clocked in at 7:24 that morning. Google Maps, of course, estimates 7 minutes drive time. Going back 8-10 minutes would make it likely have been around 7:15 and about where expected given her pace.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Actually, maybe the def are taking BC's guilt too personally? Seems like the trial hasn't finished on these pages, lolll. The testimonies that were blacked out were done for a very good reason. The jury were the only group privy to that info - and it had to be crticial. That info, is none of our business. The decision probably has a lot to do with local, state and probably national security. That should be respected.

The Judge asked of the jury, as all Judges generally do, to also *use their common sense*. Common sense, logic, the timeline, BC's lies, means motive and opportunity were huge. Some want blood, a weapon or video of BC committing the crime. Never going to happen.

BC just didn't have time to clean up everything (including his laptop) because he was ambushed some 12 - 24 hours earlier than expected. Yes, yes, that pesky little friend of his wife showed up and smelled a mega rat. From noon that Saturday, BC knew he couldn't get rid of anything else.

It was a gamble he had to take. And finally, after 2 and half years and 2 exhausting months ... Brad Cooper lost....

 

[cody100]

The first I remember locally where the smoking gun was a Google search a few days before the murder for where the body was found was the trial of Robert Petrick, another computer expert, over in Durham.

How often does this happen elsewhere, or is this just some local weirdness?

That is a very interesting point. Perhaps it is a demonic virus endemic to this area? Sure hope it doesn't hit my computer.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

I believe it was Bottle that brought up half of Cary. I assume she believes everyone is from Cary. But half of Cary would be public outrage so talk to Bottle about that. I think it is more than just the parties you mentioned. There is absolutely no proof of faked calls or dumped router, and well, the googling of the map we have beat to death. If we take away these three items, surely there is enough and more evidence to get a guilty verdict if the Map is not important. And so, if the map isn't important, again why the defensive posturing and objections by BZ ? Just let it in. It is like winning a game but having questionable calls. All of this is JMO.

Yuppers ... winning the game. Prosecution won. Googling the dump site was a huge blunder by Brad. It was not *the only* piece of evidence. Critical - indeed. But the trial didn't take 8 weeks of a Googled dump-site. There was a great deal more. It was everything.

The last-minute def expert was too late a call by Kurtz when he realized JW was not qualified (enough) to provide expert testimony. Whose fault is that? The prosecutions? Nopey-nope nope. KURTZ ... had over 2 half years to get his ducks in a row. Seemed he used the missing ones from the Cooper's hallway and then saw what bloggers were saying and dashed out to quickly buy another expert.

ALL witnesses must be approved (handed over / shared) by both sides before trial starts. Please someone tell me if I'm wrong here ... thats aside from bringing in an "overnight find".

Ludicrous ... truly screams desperation, IMO...

Ooops ... here's your glass of wine <<<clink clink>>> selected a marvellous Shiraz this time from the gently southern sloping hills beneath the Chilean mountainous ridgeback Lovely soft cultivar ...

 

[MoonFlwr]

We simply will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am utterly stunned that everyone is so defensive over the map. By your own comments, the map was really not the major point of evidence for you. . Why do some of you feel the need to attack Kurtz so heavily? If he and his ideas are insignificant, why just not even discuss them. Me thinks people protest too strongly. All of the map evidence from both sides should have been let in IMO, and then there would never have been such a dichotomy of opinions on how this case played out. And, I do not think this will go away quickly MOO. I did not get the impression that Kurtz made decisions on the blogger's reactions. I will go back and hear it again. And RPD and I did discuss the money situation which is irrelevant in this discussion. Got some wine for me?

BBM.
From memory, Kurtz's comment was that he read the blogs and felt vindicated by the comments he read. He saw supportive comments on blogs...

(I don't recall him stating that he used bloggers' input to make decisions!)

 

[cody100]

Actually, maybe the def are taking BC's guilt too personally? Seems like the trial hasn't finished on these pages, lolll. The testimonies that were blacked out were done for a very good reason. The jury were the only group privy to that info - and it had to be crticial. That info, is none of our business. The decision probably has a lot to do with local, state and probably national security. That should be respected.

The Judge asked of the jury, as all Judges generally do, to also *use their common sense*. Common sense, logic, the timeline, BC's lies, means motive and opportunity were huge. Some want blood, a weapon or video of BC committing the crime. Never going to happen.

BC just didn't have time to clean up everything (including his laptop) because he was ambushed some 12 - 24 hours earlier than expected. Yes, yes, that pesky little friend of his wife showed up and smelled a mega rat. From noon that Saturday, BC knew he couldn't get rid of anything else.

It was a gamble he had to take. And finally, after 2 and half years and 2 exhausting months ... Brad Cooper lost....

Actually anyone in the courtroom could hear the testimony. It was blacked out because of the undercover LE officer. What was national security issues was stated to be the methods used to analyze the computer so in effect the defense was not allowed full access to how they arrived at their conclusions. This issue of national security has been questioned heavily as a cloak of protection to our security or a reason not to reveal all methods used as is required by other evidence in a criminal investigation. Kurtz tried hard to get some pieces of evidence but couldn't. And no, I wish I had heard all of it, but was not able to get to court.

I do believe Kurtz is taking this verdict personally because he couldn't show his proof of the files being planted (His words not mine). I, along with others, feel he should have been allowed to do this since so much hearsay and inuendo was allowed. All of this is MOO

 

[unc70]

IIRC, JW said in his statement, 'he would have made the same decision the judge did, to not qualify him as an expert in the forensic examination of the computer.' It doesn't matter what the second expert said. He isn't a judge, he doesn't have the power to grant the title of 'expert witness' to anyone. Experts not only possess knowledge, they also have to have their standards and methods examined. Their lab and equipment have to be deemed to be 'up to the accepted standards'. Etc. People don't just sashay into the court room and become *experts*. This trial was no different than any other trial I have watched over the years. Except that I have NEVER seen an EXPERT quite like JW. The fact that he came to WS's that very night and posted, should tell you a little bit about the caliber of *expert* he professed to be. It just isn't done, EVER. Experts are very careful about their profession, their behavior, their reputations, etc. Watch a few more trials, gavel to gavel, and then come back and tell me you still believe JW should have been deemed an expert at anything. From now forward, any time anyone attempts to hire him as an expert, the opposing counsel will be allowed to produce his WS post to discredit him. That will have nothing to do with his facebook page and everything to do with his own indescretion at opening his mouth while a trial is still in process. Even you and I know that is just not done, and neither of us is attempting to become experts, are we?

The court accepted JW as an expert witness in his field but the judge did not allow him to testify where his areas of expertise overlapped those of a computer forensic expert. That included anything presented by CC regarding the contents of BC's disk.

This would be roughly equivalent to not allowing an expert in a medical specialty being allowed to discuss the autopsy report.

 

[cody100]

BBM.
From memory, Kurtz's comment was that he read the blogs and felt vindicated by the comments he read. He saw supportive comments on blogs...

(I don't recall him stating that he used bloggers' input to make decisions!)

Thanks that was my impression. It has seemed to take wings into a much more significant role in how he conducted his case.

 

[unc70]

He answers questions in such an honest way that I believe him when he says that he has proof that was not easy to find, but once found was very obvious. I don't think he would risk his career and accuse the police of tampering with evidence if he didn't believe it to be true. He would only believe that if Brad told it to him straight and the evidence supported the claim. I think it was Brad that was able to assist with identifying the tampering, something that would be very important to Brad to identify, something that would be difficult to identify and something that would reflect very negatively on investigators.

I found Kurtz's remarks about having a technology-qualified Judge very relevant. If the presiding Judge doesn't even know what an MP3 player is, then he was really in no position to disqualify technology and electronic evidence.

The judge took a short course in computer forensic evidence a year or two back. I think it might have been in a Bar newsletter or something like that.

 

[cody100]

Yuppers ... winning the game. Prosecution won. Googling the dump site was a huge blunder by Brad. It was not *the only* piece of evidence. Critical - indeed. But the trial didn't take 8 weeks of a Googled dump-site. There was a great deal more. It was everything.

The last-minute def expert was too late a call by Kurtz when he realized JW was not qualified (enough) to provide expert testimony. Whose fault is that? The prosecutions? Nopey-nope nope. KURTZ ... had over 2 half years to get his ducks in a row. Seemed he used the missing ones from the Cooper's hallway and then saw what bloggers were saying and dashed out to quickly buy another expert.

ALL witnesses must be approved (handed over / shared) by both sides before trial starts. Please someone tell me if I'm wrong here ... thats aside from bringing in an "overnight find".

Ludicrous ... truly screams desperation, IMO...

Ooops ... here's your glass of wine <<<clink clink>>> selected a marvellous Shiraz this time from the gently southern sloping hills beneath the Chilean mountainous ridgeback Lovely soft cultivar ...

So now the map is an important piece of evidence. And nopey, Kurtz had the hardest time getting the computer findings from the prosecution. BTW, this does go both ways. Kurtz was trying to get their methodology even in court. But BZ again had kittens over that or were his puppies. Anyway, I believe Kurtz also thought that JG would allow the overlapping testimony for JW. But he didn't. I haven't shielded him from why he did not. That would be one of my questions as well, but I believe he felt this would fly. Kurtz said this tampering was hard to find, but when you found it, you knew immediately someone planted that file. Judges are permitted to allow additional witnesses during trial, but it is much harder to do. Don't think Kurtz is ludicrous, desperate, or anything else. He is just passionate that that piece of evidence was critical to his case. Perhaps he puts too much emphasis on that point. Now I do like a nice Shiraz. We can agree at least on that . :floorlaugh:

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Now I do like a nice Shiraz. We can agree at least on that . :floorlaugh:

MMmmmm. Smooth, soft and lightly rich. On that note I'm saddlin up and riding out on my donkey for now

(Dont have too much vino... bi cody...)

 

[cody100]

MMmmmm. Smooth, soft and lightly rich. On that note I'm saddlin up and riding out on my donkey for now

(Dont have too much vino... bi cody...)

Bye PSA. I am hitching up my dog to a leash for a nice morning walk. It has been great chatting with everyone.

 

[unc70]

Brad intercepted the separation agreement and Nancy gave him a copy of the separation agreement. He had it in April from both sources. He immediately put Nancy on a budget of $300/mo. I think all couples facing divorce move towards a strict budget, if not sooner. I don't see anything in the draft that could not be negotiated into a reasonable solution. Child support for two children with Brad's income according to Canadian Federal Child Support Guidelines is about $1550 per month, nothing that was not manageable. They were to be raised in Ontario, so Ontario guidelines should apply.

What is in the separation draft that was not manageable? Did it include anything about Nancy contributing financially to the children in the proposed distance relationship? There were ammendments that needed to be made to the draft.

Jason Young couldn't hold a job and needed his wife's income, Mike Peterson wasn't working and needed his wife's income, Scott Peterson's wife was a substitute teacher who planned to take maternity leave without benifits and his job was crumbling. Brad was upwardly mobile with a good future and ever increasing income. He could have liquidated the house and kept on going.

I believe that Mike Peterson had just done a major deal regarding "Johnny Two-Shoes"

 

[unc70]

How can that be? Wasn't there a recent case of a mentally retarded/mentally challenged man having a signed confession where he spelled his name incorrectly? That was right in NC where a mentally deficient man was accused of murder and after 9 hours there was a written confession, even though he was illiterate ... and his name was spelled wrong. He went to jail for a very long time before anyone was brought into question for the planted evidence.

You might be thinking of Floyd Brown. Police fabricated evidence in that one:

http://www.fairtrial.org/success_stories

 

[borndem]

Okay, so my da*n modem fried. What did I miss?? Yes, I know I missed a lot, was so MAD and frustrated that I couldn't get online, but absolutely THRILLED at the verdict. It seems the jury took their time, view evidence, & deliberated, which is what they are supposed to do. Hubby is still working on the new modem, attempting to get the wireless feature working. I hope I don't lose my connection again.

Hi, Glee - I was wonderin' where you had gone... Glad to see that you're okay although you are mad at the world of cyber. Yes, mechanical equipment does fail, and always at the worst time.

Again, glad you are back with us! :seeya: