The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[crazyladi]

Sorry for the double posts it keeps freezing

 

[tmhco]

Going to catch up, from the last thread:

from tmhco
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011


Not one witness could testify that TM knew MR or that VS knew TLM. End of story. JMO

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bbm, TLM testified she knew TS iirc?

TLM testified that she did not know VS and that it was a random kidnapping. VS was the only girl walking alone.

 

[Heliotrope]

So the theory with the babysitting angle is this then.

MR showed up at TLM's place in the early afternoon looking for drugs. So he and TLM went to her friends to get some drugs and then he dropped her off at her prearranged appt at the Employment Centre telling her he was going out of town and asked her if she wanted to go with him. So she told him that she had to babysit a friend's 8 yr old daughter after school and he said no problem, we can take her with us, she can sit on the hard metal in the back seat since I have no cushioned bench seat. And I'll wait for you to finish up at the employment centre and then drop you off at the school and go park at a gas station away from the school until around the time you might have picked her up and then I'll park in the small lot at the nursing home as far away from the school as possible and you can meet me there.

He wanted TLM's company so badly on that one day he was driving out to Guelph for his drug run (even though he was doing it about 3 times a month on his own prior to that) that he was willing to wait over an hour for her to pick up a strange child and was willing to take that child with him in his car with no back seat for her to sit on?

Does anyone else realize how preposterous this sounds?

MOO

BBM

Yes, absolutely.

Don't forget, as they were walking up Fyfe, he was to slowly drive by them but NOT stop to pick them up. Because that's what normal humans do, right? Isn't that exactly what you and I would do?

 

[Flossie JMO]

I have always thought that Tlm knew ts but the more I have heard I just don't know that for a fact. Tlm said she didn't and I don't know why she lied about that unless there is something we haven't heard. I just find it so odd all of these users lived so close and all the connections are crazy.

Was mtr dating that girl that had a child that was friends with tori before she disappeared? If so is it possible she talked about tm and her children etc for him to have this knowledge? Could he have been the connection not Tlm? Just asking I can't remember the timeline.

If I felt a parent was unfit I would talk about that to someone maybe this is something she did? Was her daughter one of the girls coming over to watch the movie that day? Pure speculation on my part.

freezing on me too, sorry if I have double posted

bbm, maybe someone has it handy? iirc TLM said she DID know TS. Can anyone help with that? JMO I never thought it was random, and JMO ONLY perhaps TLM knew TS would be walking home alone as well. JMO ONLY

 

[Oldsoul2]

IMO it started out just as that...a babysitting job, whether sent there by someone other than MR or a plan TLM worked out for herself for whatever reason she had in mind...drug debt owed to her Mother..revenge for something that didn't go to plan etc..I fully believe TS knew TLM.. JMO..maybe murder was not on the agenda at that stage but something went wrong along the way...Maybe when MR realized what her plan was (maybe she told him) that is when he said to her that"we can't keep her and we can't take her back"..
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This statement speaks volumes to me. This implies without a question that a plan went wrong. He is saying, in other words, since this didn't work out ( a plan he was privy to, since he made this statement) we have no other alternative but to kill her. If he just wanted to rape her, he would have known he couldn't take her back, if she was just abducting her to kill her he wouldn't have said this to her at all. There was a plan but IMO neither his motif nor hers has been truthful. TLM has left out everything and anything that will imply or bring to the surface the real motif which is why I think Rodney keeps saying this. It is also why people keep saying there are holes in the story that don't make any sense. IMO, this was a plan, premeditated, thought through and something went wrong along the way.

 

[tmhco]

At 8 years old, school out and a party in front of me I would have been skipping down the road too. At 8 years old I would have been flattered by a teenage girl's attention. At 8 years old I didn't know that monsters came in all shapes and sizes. JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

TLM testified that she did not know VS and that it was a random kidnapping. VS was the only girl walking alone.

I don't think so, will look for a link, I am pretty sure she said she had met her before on a walk or something and that TS asked her about Precious.

I will look for a link. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

The witness said TLM went in the front doors.......right by the school offices on the inside I would imagine.

The witness didn't just see TLM walk in the door. She saw her walk by the buses and then into the front door........so the witnessed watched her all the way in.

IMO there is no reason to dispute the witness observations.

The Crown made a feeble attempt at it....perhaps to justify why they didn't call her as a witness, but I think the jury will believe her testimony as truthful.

RS was surprised and knew nothing about the witness. He asked why the Crown didn't call her to testify as well.

When RS said the trial was full of lies on the inside of the courtroom and the outside, he wasn't talking about the defense questions.......IMO.

The defense only called one witness.........and RS didn't question her testimony.

RS has previously said he didn't mind Derstine's questions if it brought out the truth.

So that leaves................Crown witnesses.

JMO..................

(RSBM)

ITA. This witness gave her statements to LE on two separate occasions - April 11 and May 26. Both would be documented. By the time of the first statement, LE would have had the CASS video of the woman in the white jacket walking away with Tori. Unless one believes that LE is totally incompetent, I imagine the first thing they'd do would be to verify this witness's claim by:

• getting a list of all students and their contact numbers from OSPS
• eliminating Tori, Daryn, the witness's 2 grandchildren, students absent that day, and any who left by bus
• contacting the parents/caregivers of the remaining students
• eliminating any of the above who did not pick up their kids
• eliminating those who were males who did pick up their kids
• questioning the remainder of the females who did, as to what they were wearing that day and which door they used

IF any females came out of this list who were wearing white jackets and who entered the front doors at around the same time the witness saw her, the witness would be asked to ID these women as the one she saw.

IF there had been even one such female who could have been mistaken for TLM, you can be sure that the Crown would have called her to the stand to refute this witness's testimony. He did not, so I have to conclude that TLM was the only possibility. LE would have eliminated anyone else it could have been.

Avery Moore‏@AveryFreeFMNews
She says she is sure it was the same woman she saw go into the school. Same jacket, hair pulled back.

As for the time element, she says she testified she saw the woman at 3:20. TLM and Tori were captured on the CASS video at 3:32 - 12 minutes later. I believe someone posted the walk should take approximately 7 minutes, leaving maybe 5 minutes for TLM to find and talk Tori into going with her. There was plenty of time for them to get up the street to be seen by not just this witness, but at least one of her grandchildren, as well.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Witness "very confidant" the woman in white at the school and on the sidewalk were the same person.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
One of her grandchildren mentioned the little girl walking with the woman. She only got a "side profile" Carnegie suggested.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
She says she was driving slow. She got a good look.

This testimony sounds completely credible to me. MOO. One great significance is that it shows that TLM lied on the stand when she said she was on the street when she picked the first child she saw. No way can I believe that she walked into that school looking for any random kid to abduct.

Avery Moore‏@AveryFreeFMNews
McClintic testified she waited by a tree near the road. Witness now saying woman in white jacket went into the school

And, of course, the biggest significance (and the reason Derstine called the witness) is that it throws the entire motive for the abduction into doubt. If Tori was specifically targeted, it pretty much eliminates MTR as the force behind the kidnapping for sexual purposes and puts it straight on TLM's shoulders. Why else would she lie about where Tori was seized?

JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

Yet, TM says her daughter didn't look comfortable.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSlQHgDINpM"]Tori's mom speaks about daughter's abduction - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Flossie JMO]

At 8 years old, school out and a party in front of me I would have been skipping down the road too. At 8 years old I would have been flattered by a teenage girl's attention. At 8 years old I didn't know that monsters came in all shapes and sizes. JMO

Very scary but true, like Sandra Cantu. JMO ONLY Although iirc Tori's family didn't believe she would go with a stranger, jmo, iirc, will look for that link too.

 

[Dmman]

At 8 years old, school out and a party in front of me I would have been skipping down the road too. At 8 years old I would have been flattered by a teenage girl's attention. At 8 years old I didn't know that monsters came in all shapes and sizes. JMO

And so many hopes & dreams destroyed just hours later . So very heartbreaking. IMO there shouldn't be a shadow of doubt in anyone's eyes that BOTH these monsters are equally guilty of abducting, raping & murdering this child. Makes my heart sad to hear anything different

Very well said, powerful statement btw!

 

[tmhco]

Very scary but true, like Sandra Cantu. JMO ONLY Although iirc Tori's family didn't believe she would go with a stranger, jmo, iirc, will look for that link too.

Here, I found one.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/12/09/tori-stafford-mcclintic.html

 

[Wondergirl]

Just heard something funny on the news ... 'Derstine has pleaded with the jury throughout the 9 weeks to reserve judgment until they have heard his version of events .. turns out, his version of events is very short'.

Now that IS funny!

Thanks for sharing. lol

 

[antiquegirl]

"We can't keep her and we can't take her back".

It is MY OPINION ONLY that this is one of several statements TLM attributed to MTR where she reversed who the speaker actually was. Another one was “You're in it just as far as I am”. I believe that it was TLM who said both of these statements to MTR, and not the other way around.

Both TLM and MTR have told many, many lies. Some can be proved and some never will be, as there are only two remaining witnesses to these conversations.

MOO!

 

[roseofsharon]

So not only is TLM a brazen kidnapper, she had enough nerve to enter the school, but she even went in the entrance beside the school offices!!!!

School had been let out, but TLM had no fear with regards to faculty being in and around the corridors, classrooms, and offices or themselves leaving for the day using the same door.

It is too far fetched to imagine as soon as she entered the school, there was TS and going on the assumption that each didn't know the other, she approached a child and had her talked in to going with her just like that.

Did the Grandmother witness testify today that she even heard conversation between TLM and TS regarding going to see puppies??? and if so, how, I didn't think the Grandmother left her vehicle.

MOO

 

[Flossie JMO]

Here, I found one.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/12/09/tori-stafford-mcclintic.html

Thanks. On TLM knowing Tori, I saw this, and bbm I do believe she knew Tori JMO ONLY:


In a clearer and more coherent voice than on her first day of testimony on Tuesday, McClintic told the court Rafferty had also "instructed" her on an alibi if the police accused her of being the woman in a white jacket who was last seen walking with Tori outside the school. In one scenario, she was to tell the police the two went window-shopping in Oakville, Ont., and visited a Fred Astaire dance studio because Rafferty had been interested in taking lessons.


In another, she was to admit that she didn't know Tori but had met her on a previous occasion with her dog. She said she was told to tell police that day she ran into the blond-haired girl and walked with her but parted ways shortly after. In the third scenario, she was to say the two picked up the girl but dropped her off in a green sedan.


http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...take+fall+everything+video/6300744/story.html
and re street proofing etc and BBM I do believe both RS and TM talked to Tori about strangers and warned her JMO ONLY:


McDonald told court she had no knowledge of Tori ever having met McClintic previously. The girl had been street-proofed, cautioned not to go off with strangers. But McClintic was not a complete stranger to McDonald

http://www.thespec.com/news/staffor...donald-no-mother-of-the-year-to-tori-stafford

 

[tmhco]

As far as RS stating we will never know the truth, I believe he means the details. We have an outline. We don't know what led up to it, we don't know why Tori didn't throw a fit, we don't really know who committed the act of murder, or the definitive truth about why they chose her. He wants the why and he will never get it. JMO

 

[Heliotrope]

I don't think so, will look for a link, I am pretty sure she said she had met her before on a walk or something and that TS asked her about Precious.

I will look for a link. JMO

Pretty sure not.

McClintic said she did not know where McDonald lived and did not see Tori Stafford walking her Shih Tzu dog [via Twitter]
Thursday March 22, 2012 4:03 RaffertyLFP
4:05

Twitter
RaffertyLFP:
Derstine suggests that neighborhood kids would have interest in her Shih Tzu dog [via Twitter]
Thursday March 22, 2012 4:05 RaffertyLFP
4:06

Twitter
RaffertyLFP:
McClintic again denies knowing Tori and her dog. Said she picked her up at schoolyard because she was the only kid alone

 

[tmhco]

Thanks. On TLM knowing Tori, I saw this, and bbm I do believe she knew Tori JMO ONLY:


In a clearer and more coherent voice than on her first day of testimony on Tuesday, McClintic told the court Rafferty had also "instructed" her on an alibi if the police accused her of being the woman in a white jacket who was last seen walking with Tori outside the school. In one scenario, she was to tell the police the two went window-shopping in Oakville, Ont., and visited a Fred Astaire dance studio because Rafferty had been interested in taking lessons.


In another, she was to admit that she didn't know Tori but had met her on a previous occasion with her dog. She said she was told to tell police that day she ran into the blond-haired girl and walked with her but parted ways shortly after. In the third scenario, she was to say the two picked up the girl but dropped her off in a green sedan.


http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...take+fall+everything+video/6300744/story.html
and re street proofing etc and BBM I do believe both RS and TM talked to Tori about strangers and warned her JMO ONLY:


McDonald told court she had no knowledge of Tori ever having met McClintic previously. The girl had been street-proofed, cautioned not to go off with strangers. But McClintic was not a complete stranger to McDonald

http://www.thespec.com/news/staffor...donald-no-mother-of-the-year-to-tori-stafford

I am not saying that she didn't, only that TLM testified that it was random. Who knows?

 

[SmoothOperator]

IMO it started out just as that...a babysitting job, whether sent there by someone other than MR or a plan TLM worked out for herself for whatever reason she had in mind...drug debt owed to her Mother..revenge for something that didn't go to plan etc..I fully believe TS knew TLM.. JMO..maybe murder was not on the agenda at that stage but something went wrong along the way...Maybe when MR realized what her plan was (maybe she told him) that is when he said to her that"we can't keep her and we can't take her back"...the rage in TLM may have started to boil at that point as she knew she was in "*advertiser censored*" and asked MR to take them somewhere secluded so she could "talk" to TS...maybe TS stood up to her and TLM by this time filled with rage threw her to the ground and stomped on her crushing ribs and damaging organs...and as the old saying goes..."when she saw what she had done she gave her .....forty whacks"....JMO....then of course we have the two of them covering up the deed done by TLM...may sound far fetched to some because it doesn't include "the rape" but it is no more far fetched than some other theories that have been posted...JMO anything is possible at this stage of the game...especially now that todays witness has testified that TLM entered the school... even RS was stunned that he hadn't been told about that witness...JMO

IMO anyone is more than welcome to make up any ol theory that they'd like.. With as many or as little of details that they so choose to use.. Sprinkled with the lies and truths of this sad, sad case that resulted with little 8year old Tori savagely beaten to death and left half dressed to rot in trash bags under a pile of rocks..

At this stage of the "game" to each their own on what they choose to say, theorize, believe.. The only thing that matters is that, that precious little 8 year old girl, Tori is well on her way to receiving justice for what two people chose to be involved with and do to her.. Justice will be served and all the theories, distractions, claims, etc, etc, etc do not matter in the least and can continue for as long as one feels compelled to do so.. None of that will stop the justice from being served and that my friends is what the entire "game" is and has always been about.. Justice for Tori!


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Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy: