The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[crystalsleuth]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

 

[Flossie JMO]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

Going to catch up, from the last thread:

from tmhco
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011


Not one witness could testify that TM knew MR or that VS knew TLM. End of story. JMO

====

bbm, TLM testified she knew TS iirc?

 

[lightlady]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

Yes, agree that was one of the points. But what can that mean? And how would that fit into MR's guilt or innocence? There were no other testimonies about this beyond that.

I still can't find any tale that fits, whether Tori knew TLM or not (and we already have testimony from mom that the answer is "not")

 

[crazyladi]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

It also shows that the girl was a female teenager and my child would have skipped and smile to go see a dog too! Jmo

 

[SFB73]

I looked at it again on UTube, but I would like to see it in its entirety, they way it was when it first was released.

It is the tape of TLM walking with TS at the school.

The only video that I've seen was video from CASS SCHOOL, I don't think there were any videos from OSPS ever released, or if there even are any cameras at the school. I don't think many older elementary schools are equipped with cameras. I do have a friend who teaches at a new school and they have a very impressive system of cameras monitoring the enter school, pretty much everywhere other than in the actual classrooms. The cameras and tapes have been used many times regarding incidents that have happened at the school. If there were cameras at OSPS this would have clearly shown if TLM was in the school. I personally don't think she went right into the school, but rather think the witness simply may have seen someone else, or thought she saw something she really didn't. I bet if we took 10 people here, put them in a room and have an incident occur quickly infront of them, there would be 10 different versions of what was seen and what actually happened. With the video released and playing over and over again and with human nature wanting to help find a missing child, perhaps the grandmother thought she saw TLM in the school when she simply saw her walking on the street, or waiting off the school property. Out of all the other people in and around the school, no teachers or anyone else noticed the girl wearing the white puffy coat that had never been around that school before?? For a brief period after the abduction the girl in the white puffy coat was the most sought after person in all of Woodstock, yet only one grandma saw her go into the school? Sometimes what we actually thought we saw when recalling events from a day or so earlier may not be entirely accurate.

 

[~n/t~]

What I'm trying to understand is why Rodney keeps saying this. Either he has already heard certain testimony that the ban has prevented us from hearing thus far and is watching the defense imply that MR wasn't responsible or this evidence has not been permitted in court for whatever reason. Why is he not satisfied with TLM's account on what happened that day. He has definitely not heard a word from MR, as we haven't, so what does he know that he is stating "we will never know the truth" Is it possible that he thinks, as I have since the start, that Tori was taken for profit and both TLM and MR are covering it so people won't come and kill them? He was a pimp and that testimony floored me because that motif would make total sense and the girl that testified to that, did it WILLINGLY for a reason. He keeps talking about all the lies, which tells me he does not believe fully TLM's account of the events of April 8th to which he can't voice for whatever reason.

IMO, he wasn't referring to the Crown's case. He is referring to the defense's insuations of drugs and gangs which has nothing to do with Tori's murder. IMO, he knows Victoria was kidnapped. He knows Victoria was raped and he knows they both had a hand in her murder.

He hopes the jury saw what we saw and that is the closest to the truth we will ever get, unfortunately.

 

[matou]

Going to catch up, from the last thread:

from tmhco
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011


Not one witness could testify that TM knew MR or that VS knew TLM. End of story. JMO

====

bbm, TLM testified she knew TS iirc?

Ahhh, but this does not PROVE that VS knew TLM at all. VS was a very friendly little girl. Similar to many little girls who might have been excited to see something like a little puppy. JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

So the theory with the babysitting angle is this then.

MR showed up at TLM's place in the early afternoon looking for drugs. So he and TLM went to her friends to get some drugs and then he dropped her off at her prearranged appt at the Employment Centre telling her he was going out of town and asked her if she wanted to go with him. So she told him that she had to babysit a friend's 8 yr old daughter after school and he said no problem, we can take her with us, she can sit on the hard metal in the back seat since I have no cushioned bench seat. And I'll wait for you to finish up at the employment centre and then drop you off at the school and go park at a gas station away from the school until around the time you might have picked her up and then I'll park in the small lot at the nursing home as far away from the school as possible and you can meet me there.

He wanted TLM's company so badly on that one day he was driving out to Guelph for his drug run (even though he was doing it about 3 times a month on his own prior to that) that he was willing to wait over an hour for her to pick up a strange child and was willing to take that child with him in his car with no back seat for her to sit on?

Does anyone else realize how preposterous this sounds?

MOO

I do Kamille, it's the most ridiculous defense I have ever heard. Even in the CA case, the drowning theory, although absolute bs sounded more plausible considering chloroform has the same product that is in pool solution. This theory of a "dare" on TLMs part and the "babysitting" on MRs part is literally insulting to peoples intelligence.

 

[Flossie JMO]

A bit off topic but now that the end is near in regards to the actual trial, I have thought about an earlier question posed in one of the threads many weeks ago. That question or comment was in regards to possible books and a movie about Victoria Stafford's murder. I think of the recent Caylee Anthony case and the books published about that. I am in Canada and was wondering if anyone knew what exactly are the laws regarding writing and also profiting from a crime? I did find one link about the Son of Sam law in the United States and how it might apply to Canadian Law. Also, I may have missed a similar post to mine and forgive me if I am asking a question already addressed here. MOO

http://library.findlaw.com/1998/Apr/1/127769.html

Most recent iirc: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/source/statutes/english/2002/elaws_src_s02002_e.htm

 

[crazyladi]

Ahhh, but this does not PROVE that VS knew TLM at all. VS was a very friendly little girl. Similar to many little girls who might have been excited to see something like a little puppy. JMO

Exactly. I have discussed "stranger danger" to my daughter over and over and I can guarantee that she would have went with Tlm. Kids don't see females or teenage females as dangers there would have been no reason why she would have not been comfortable with her and skip and smile.

To me the witness today really didn't do a dent to the crowns case at all.

I will listen to his closing arguments as I am sure it will be very interesting indeed.

 

[Flossie JMO]

What I'm trying to understand is why Rodney keeps saying this. Either he has already heard certain testimony that the ban has prevented us from hearing thus far and is watching the defense imply that MR wasn't responsible or this evidence has not been permitted in court for whatever reason. Why is he not satisfied with TLM's account on what happened that day. He has definitely not heard a word from MR, as we haven't, so what does he know that he is stating "we will never know the truth" Is it possible that he thinks, as I have since the start, that Tori was taken for profit and both TLM and MR are covering it so people won't come and kill them? He was a pimp and that testimony floored me because that motif would make total sense and the girl that testified to that, did it WILLINGLY for a reason. He keeps talking about all the lies, which tells me he does not believe fully TLM's account of the events of April 8th to which he can't voice for whatever reason.

JMO it seems to me he doesn't believe any of the people who testified said the whole truth and nothing but the truth. JMO ONLY

 

[crazyladi]

I am just happy that he chose this one witness instead of leaving it as is and have the jury hear his words last. I really feel this is an added bonus to the crown to close off this trial with the cold hard facts not a make believe story made up by the accused. Jmo

 

[Flossie JMO]

Ahhh, but this does not PROVE that VS knew TLM at all. VS was a very friendly little girl. Similar to many little girls who might have been excited to see something like a little puppy. JMO

True, TLM saying she knew TS doesn't make it true, I agree. JMO the testimony about going into the school, and seemingly nobody raising a flag, JMO sounds to me that they did in fact know each other. JMO

I have no way of knowing what the truth is, I guess Friday will hopefully have some information or clarify some matters. JMO made me think of Kyron's case, I don't think flags were raised there either and I don't believe a stranger picked Kyron up at the school. JMO ONLY

 

[Macright]

If the defence theory is that MR believed TLM was babysitting, then this morning's witness strengthens that argument. If the witness stated from the beginning (which it appears she did) that the white coat woman entered the school, then it sounds like something a babysitter, rather than a kidnapper, would do. MR could say that he didn't want to interfere with the babysitting that TLM was doing, so he stayed out of it. Maybe he's saying that TLM wanted to go for a drive and he had no idea that murder was on her mind. Maybe TLM said she wanted to pick up a hammer for her mom, and that explains why they stopped at the hardware store. Maybe he was afraid of her violence and gang ties after the murder so he distanced himself from her. Maybe he visited TLM in detention because he wanted to encourage her to tell authorities what she did. Maybe he was stunned when TLM pointed the finger at him, but appreciated that she at least truthfully admitted that she caused the murder prior to the start of the trial.

I can see that this is possibly what the defence closing arguments will be ... and this morning's witness certainly sets the stage for that type of reasoning. I still don't believe it.

IMO it started out just as that...a babysitting job, whether sent there by someone other than MR or a plan TLM worked out for herself for whatever reason she had in mind...drug debt owed to her Mother..revenge for something that didn't go to plan etc..I fully believe TS knew TLM.. JMO..maybe murder was not on the agenda at that stage but something went wrong along the way...Maybe when MR realized what her plan was (maybe she told him) that is when he said to her that"we can't keep her and we can't take her back"...the rage in TLM may have started to boil at that point as she knew she was in "*advertiser censored*" and asked MR to take them somewhere secluded so she could "talk" to TS...maybe TS stood up to her and TLM by this time filled with rage threw her to the ground and stomped on her crushing ribs and damaging organs...and as the old saying goes..."when she saw what she had done she gave her .....forty whacks"....JMO....then of course we have the two of them covering up the deed done by TLM...may sound far fetched to some because it doesn't include "the rape" but it is no more far fetched than some other theories that have been posted...JMO anything is possible at this stage of the game...especially now that todays witness has testified that TLM entered the school... even RS was stunned that he hadn't been told about that witness...JMO

 

[~n/t~]

Loved ones hear the hard cold facts

Interesting read RE: when Tori's Family found out from LE what happened to Tori

God Bless Tori's twin Daryn
Since April 30, McDonald has wrestled with how and when to tell her son and Tori's beloved brother Daryn about the girl's last hours. He was not at the hotel or the courtroom in April.

"If I had my choice I would never tell him what happened," she says during an interview in the summer.

But Daryn is a smart boy and he will read in newspapers that McClintic bought a hammer, and garbage bags, McDonald says.

"I know he will figure it out. I know."

Just a few days ago, with a grief counsellor at hand, McDonald finally told Daryn how his sister died. She had to explain the meaning of "multiple force blunt trauma" - the official words of the autopsy.

In words meant to comfort and warn, she told Daryn they will never know the truth of what happened that day.

Everyone involved will tell the story to make themselves look better, McDonald told him.

"I told him only one person will ever know the truth of what happened, and that is Tori."


read.http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2010/12/08/16474986.html

:tears:

 

[Macright]

A bit off topic but now that the end is near in regards to the actual trial, I have thought about an earlier question posed in one of the threads many weeks ago. That question or comment was in regards to possible books and a movie about Victoria Stafford's murder. I think of the recent Caylee Anthony case and the books published about that. I am in Canada and was wondering if anyone knew what exactly are the laws regarding writing and also profiting from a crime? I did find one link about the Son of Sam law in the United States and how it might apply to Canadian Law. Also, I may have missed a similar post to mine and forgive me if I am asking a question already addressed here. MOO

http://library.findlaw.com/1998/Apr/1/127769.html

I don't think there would be a ban on writing a book after the trial is over by someone other than the convicted...they (the convicted) cannot profit from their crime..A well known reporter was interviewing friends etc. of RW long before his court case..the book was published within months after RW was sentenced...JMO

 

[flipflop]

JMO, but the key point for me from today's testimony was that the witness saw Tori acting very comfortable with the person in the video.

I feel that the defence babysiting angle was squashed with todays witness. If MR believed TLM was picking up a child that she was babysitting, we now know that he could have parked at the school. Instead he chose to parked out of the way of people and traffic. He must have been watching his step right at the beginning of his premediated plan. MOO

As for the witness seeing a "white coat" enter the school. I wonder how many other people with white coats were there on April 8th to pick someone up. Afterall the witness was 2 bus lengths away, one white coat could look like another in my opinion. Back when the CASS video was released, we saw white coats all over Woodstock...they must have been on sale somewhere. MOO

 

[Flossie JMO]

So the theory with the babysitting angle is this then.

MR showed up at TLM's place in the early afternoon looking for drugs. So he and TLM went to her friends to get some drugs and then he dropped her off at her prearranged appt at the Employment Centre telling her he was going out of town and asked her if she wanted to go with him. So she told him that she had to babysit a friend's 8 yr old daughter after school and he said no problem, we can take her with us, she can sit on the hard metal in the back seat since I have no cushioned bench seat. And I'll wait for you to finish up at the employment centre and then drop you off at the school and go park at a gas station away from the school until around the time you might have picked her up and then I'll park in the small lot at the nursing home as far away from the school as possible and you can meet me there.

He wanted TLM's company so badly on that one day he was driving out to Guelph for his drug run (even though he was doing it about 3 times a month on his own prior to that) that he was willing to wait over an hour for her to pick up a strange child and was willing to take that child with him in his car with no back seat for her to sit on?

Does anyone else realize how preposterous this sounds?

MOO

JMO, bbm, the conflicting stories about the back seat may give jurors pause for thought. JMO ONLY

eta - was there any video released that shows TLM while they were driving around in the car?

 

[crazyladi]

I have always thought that Tlm knew ts but the more I have heard I just don't know that for a fact. Tlm said she didn't and I don't know why she lied about that unless there is something we haven't heard. I just find it so odd all of these users lived so close and all the connections are crazy.

Was mtr dating that girl that had a child that was friends with tori before she disappeared? If so is it possible she talked about tm and her children etc for him to have this knowledge? Could he have been the connection not Tlm? Just asking I can't remember the timeline.

If I felt a parent was unfit I would talk about that to someone maybe this is something she did? Was her daughter one of the girls coming over to watch the movie that day? Pure speculation on my part.

 

[crazyladi]

I have always thought that Tlm knew ts but the more I have heard I just don't know that for a fact. Tlm said she didn't and I don't know why she lied about that unless there is something we haven't heard. I just find it so odd all of these users lived so close and all the connections are crazy.

Was mtr dating that girl that had a child that was friends with tori before she disappeared? If so is it possible she talked about tm and her children etc for him to have this knowledge? Could he have been the connection not Tlm? Just asking I can't remember the timeline.

If I felt a parent was unfit I would talk about that to someone maybe this is something she did? Was her daughter one of the girls coming over to watch the movie that day? Pure speculation on my part.