The "war",what was it all about

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

No not at all. I'm just flagging up the possibility that JonBenet was moved.


JonBenet was moved from upstairs to downstairs we do not know much about the sequencing of the redressing. So its quite possible she was relocated in the white blanket, the garrote could still be attached without removing the blanket. John could have easily moved her into the wine-cellar from another location late in the morning when he went missing.

I'm not claiming this is my theory etc, only an explanation for the evidence e.g. Fleet White says he never saw JonBenet on his first visit, so its valid to suggest JR moved JonBenet from some more obscure location and into the wine-cellar.

Maybe I should be more controversial and suggest as well as moving JonBenet JR added the garrote at this point?


.

Understood. But just because FW didn't see her didn't mean she wasn't in there somewhere. The crime scene photos and floor plans of that room show that the wineceller door was at one end of the room and the room had a section that was to the left, and deeper into the room. As you stood in the doorway, only a small section of the room was in front of you, and part of the room was to the left. JB could have originally been in that deeper part of the room, where there would have not been enough light from the area outside the room to illuminate all of the wineceller. FW did not turn on the light to the wineceller, as the switch was in an odd location on a wall outside the room, and he could not find it. The deepest area of that room would have been VERY dark and we do not know exactly what lights were on in the rest of the basement.
LE did some tests with that light. There was enough light shining into the area where JB was found, particularly as she was in a white blanket (which would have reflected more light) that she SHOULD have been seen by someone standing in the doorway of the wineceller, even with the room light not turned on. So my theory is that she was IN there, but further back into the part of the room that was to the left. Later, JR moved her closer to the door because at that point, when he realized police were not going to allow the Rs to remain in the house after LE left, he knew he had to "find" her, because after that, the house was sealed as a crime scene (though not for too long) and JB would have been in the awful stages of wet decomposition at that point. NO open coffin in a tiara and pageant dress.
Police, when performing the ambient light test, felt that to see into the other part of the room, you actually had to step INTO the room and look to the left. FW admittedly did not do that, he never actually stepped into the room at the first visit. He opened the door and looked into the part of the room closest to the doorway.
That was why FW was so suspicious when JR spotted her body as soon as he looked in the room, allegedly before he (JR) turned on the light to the wineceller itself.

 

[UKGuy]

Understood. But just because FW didn't see her didn't mean she wasn't in there somewhere. The crime scene photos and floor plans of that room show that the wineceller door was at one end of the room and the room had a section that was to the left, and deeper into the room. As you stood in the doorway, only a small section of the room was in front of you, and part of the room was to the left. JB could have originally been in that deeper part of the room, where there would have not been enough light from the area outside the room to illuminate all of the wineceller. FW did not turn on the light to the wineceller, as the switch was in an odd location on a wall outside the room, and he could not find it. The deepest area of that room would have been VERY dark and we do not know exactly what lights were on in the rest of the basement.
LE did some tests with that light. There was enough light shining into the area where JB was found, particularly as she was in a white blanket (which would have reflected more light) that she SHOULD have been seen by someone standing in the doorway of the wineceller, even with the room light not turned on. So my theory is that she was IN there, but further back into the part of the room that was to the left. Later, JR moved her closer to the door because at that point, when he realized police were not going to allow the Rs to remain in the house after LE left, he knew he had to "find" her, because after that, the house was sealed as a crime scene (though not for too long) and JB would have been in the awful stages of wet decomposition at that point. NO open coffin in a tiara and pageant dress.
Police, when performing the ambient light test, felt that to see into the other part of the room, you actually had to step INTO the room and look to the left. FW admittedly did not do that, he never actually stepped into the room at the first visit. He opened the door and looked into the part of the room closest to the doorway.
That was why FW was so suspicious when JR spotted her body as soon as he looked in the room, allegedly before he (JR) turned on the light to the wineceller itself.

DeeDee249,

But just because FW didn't see her didn't mean she wasn't in there somewhere.

Sure but there was all the stuff on the floor. Anyway we are both suggesting similar explanations just the distance of relocations seems to vary.

I was reading up on Lividity and apparently you can move the body, particularly where asphyxiation occurs, as long as you do it prior to the end of the 8-12 hour maximum period. Blood pooling is not fixed immediately, changing the position of the body means the blood will start pooling towards the lowest gravitational point, causing a discoloration. Its only when lividity becomes fixed, e.g. the blood vessels are breaking down , do they permanently stain the tissues. Asphyxial deaths may slow the postmortem clotting process and delay fixing of lividity.

Due to JonBenet being wrapped in a blanket, her rate of heat loss would have been slower, complicating estimations of the TOD. All we are left with is a best guess.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

If you move the body before lividity becomes fixed, multiple patterns will develop. After it is fixed, you can move the body and no further pattern will develop. So if she was moved before it was fixed, the coroner would know it. A body (and I have seen them) will develop the purplish-reddish coloring of lividity LONG before 8-12 hours. It starts within about 15 minutes of death. Gravity pulls the blood to the lower sections of the body- the part that touches the floor, ground, bed, etc. If the body is in a chair, the legs and feet will have livor mortis, On the floor, ground or bed, the posterior will be livid if lying face up, the anterior if lying face down.
JB had posterior lividity and on the right side of her cheek. This is exactly in keeping with how she was found- on her back with her head cocked to the right.

 

[UKGuy]

If you move the body before lividity becomes fixed, multiple patterns will develop. After it is fixed, you can move the body and no further pattern will develop. So if she was moved before it was fixed, the coroner would know it. A body (and I have seen them) will develop the purplish-reddish coloring of lividity LONG before 8-12 hours. It starts within about 15 minutes of death. Gravity pulls the blood to the lower sections of the body- the part that touches the floor, ground, bed, etc. If the body is in a chair, the legs and feet will have livor mortis, On the floor, ground or bed, the posterior will be livid if lying face up, the anterior if lying face down.
JB had posterior lividity and on the right side of her cheek. This is exactly in keeping with how she was found- on her back with her head cocked to the right.

DeeDee249,
The book I read suggested 30 minutes to onset of lividity, so either way it appears shortly after JonBenet was strangled she was placed into the wine-cellar, or alternatively some other location, and then relocated into the wine-cellar the next morning?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
The book I read suggested 30 minutes to onset of lividity, so either way it appears shortly after JonBenet was strangled she was placed into the wine-cellar, or alternatively some other location, and then relocated into the wine-cellar the next morning?


.

Yes, I have always maintained that she was placed in that position, probably in the wineceller, shortly after death. Certainly she would have been placed on her back, legs out straight, head to the right, within that first 30 minutes or so,regardless of whether she was placed in the wineceller to the exclusion of another area.
Because I believe the garrote was made in the basement, and forensics (as well as the opinion of specialists) indicates the garrote was made right on her neck, along with the coroner's findings of anterior (front of the body) urine stains, leads me to believe she died right there in the basement on the floor. The bruise on her posterior right shoulder is in keeping with someone kneeling or pressing there while making and/or winding the garrote.
What could be a variable is where the assault (which led to the scream) took place and where the head bash took place. It all fits into place- JB on her stomach, unconscious, someone tying that cord around her neck, catching her hair and her gold neck chain up in the cord, as well as the red fibers from the jacket of whoever made the garrote or handed the cord to whoever made it (aka Patsy), that person kneeling down over the tiny body, pressing down on the shoulder, not even realizing they were doing it because they were so focused on tying the cord. Then, at the moment of death, her bladder voided, staining the front of her longjohns and panties.
LE tested the basement to see whether a scream could be heard across the street by the neighbor who claimed to hear it, but I don't believe they tried screaming from JB's bedroom. Had the scream taken place there, there would be NO way the parents wouldn't have heard it- JB's room was near the stairs that went right up to the parents' room.
I don't see her being left in her room (too risky if BR got up), and though it was a big house, I really do not see her body being placed anywhere else first. I think she may have been placed a little deeper into the wineceller than where she was found, but I believe she was always placed in that wineceller and ONLY in there.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, I have always maintained that she was placed in that position, probably in the wineceller, shortly after death. Certainly she would have been placed on her back, legs out straight, head to the right, within that first 30 minutes or so,regardless of whether she was placed in the wineceller to the exclusion of another area.
Because I believe the garrote was made in the basement, and forensics (as well as the opinion of specialists) indicates the garrote was made right on her neck, along with the coroner's findings of anterior (front of the body) urine stains, leads me to believe she died right there in the basement on the floor. The bruise on her posterior right shoulder is in keeping with someone kneeling or pressing there while making and/or winding the garrote.
What could be a variable is where the assault (which led to the scream) took place and where the head bash took place. It all fits into place- JB on her stomach, unconscious, someone tying that cord around her neck, catching her hair and her gold neck chain up in the cord, as well as the red fibers from the jacket of whoever made the garrote or handed the cord to whoever made it (aka Patsy), that person kneeling down over the tiny body, pressing down on the shoulder, not even realizing they were doing it because they were so focused on tying the cord. Then, at the moment of death, her bladder voided, staining the front of her longjohns and panties.
LE tested the basement to see whether a scream could be heard across the street by the neighbor who claimed to hear it, but I don't believe they tried screaming from JB's bedroom. Had the scream taken place there, there would be NO way the parents wouldn't have heard it- JB's room was near the stairs that went right up to the parents' room.
I don't see her being left in her room (too risky if BR got up), and though it was a big house, I really do not see her body being placed anywhere else first. I think she may have been placed a little deeper into the wineceller than where she was found, but I believe she was always placed in that wineceller and ONLY in there.

DeeDee249,,

Yes, I have always maintained that she was placed in that position, probably in the wineceller, shortly after death. Certainly she would have been placed on her back, legs out straight, head to the right, within that first 30 minutes or so,regardless of whether she was placed in the wineceller to the exclusion of another area.

Yes I agree. As you suggest the science of lividity seems to make this inescapable.

Because I believe the garrote was made in the basement, and forensics (as well as the opinion of specialists) indicates the garrote was made right on her neck, along with the coroner's findings of anterior (front of the body) urine stains, leads me to believe she died right there in the basement on the floor. The bruise on her posterior right shoulder is in keeping with someone kneeling or pressing there while making and/or winding the garrote.

Sure but there is the possibility that she was strangled upstairs with the cord then brought down to the basement within the period to onset of lividity, with the garrote added as ad-hoc staging?

What could be a variable is where the assault (which led to the scream) took place and where the head bash took place. It all fits into place- JB on her stomach, unconscious, someone tying that cord around her neck, catching her hair and her gold neck chain up in the cord, as well as the red fibers from the jacket of whoever made the garrote or handed the cord to whoever made it (aka Patsy), that person kneeling down over the tiny body, pressing down on the shoulder, not even realizing they were doing it because they were so focused on tying the cord.

Nobody would need to kneel on JonBenet she was comatose! Remember there is no impression from the gold neck chain on JonBenet's neck which should have resulted from any asphyxial pressure. This is why I am suggesting she had already been strangled and the garrote was added as staging? For all we know the bruise on her posterior right shoulder may have taken place upstairs, as a consequence of the head bash?

I am convinced JonBenet as presented in the wine-cellar is largely the result of staging, whether the R's had intended to dump JonBenet outdoors, or simply hope to lay a false and confusing trail of forensic evidence who knows?

I don't see her being left in her room (too risky if BR got up), and though it was a big house, I really do not see her body being placed anywhere else first. I think she may have been placed a little deeper into the wineceller than where she was found, but I believe she was always placed in that wineceller and ONLY in there.

Although you are probably correct here, there is the possibility that JR relocated her late that morning into the wine-cellar, thus explaining why FW missed her?

I am looking forward to the day some documentary interviews FW on this topic.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,,

Yes I agree. As you suggest the science of lividity seems to make this inescapable.


Sure but there is the possibility that she was strangled upstairs with the cord then brought down to the basement within the period to onset of lividity, with the garrote added as ad-hoc staging?


Nobody would need to kneel on JonBenet she was comatose! Remember there is no impression from the gold neck chain on JonBenet's neck which should have resulted from any asphyxial pressure. This is why I am suggesting she had already been strangled and the garrote was added as staging? For all we know the bruise on her posterior right shoulder may have taken place upstairs, as a consequence of the head bash?

I am convinced JonBenet as presented in the wine-cellar is largely the result of staging, whether the R's had intended to dump JonBenet outdoors, or simply hope to lay a false and confusing trail of forensic evidence who knows?



Although you are probably correct here, there is the possibility that JR relocated her late that morning into the wine-cellar, thus explaining why FW missed her?

I am looking forward to the day some documentary interviews FW on this topic.

No one needed to kneel on JB to keep her still. I NEVER said that. As you say, she was certainly unconscious and possibly comatose. It was simply a matter of where your knee or elbow might press if you were above her, pulling hard on the cord, as she lay on her stomach on the floor.
The gold chain was tangled up with the cord, so there would not be a separate mark from the chain. Possibly the thin metal chain was the reason that the ligature pressed as deep as it did, in view of the fact that there was very little internal damage to the structures of her throat.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

DeeDee249,,
Although you are probably correct here, there is the possibility that JR relocated her late that morning into the wine-cellar, thus explaining why FW missed her?

I simply don't believe this could be the case. I mean, I guess there's always a faint possibility that she was moved from another room in the basement, but i'm assuming JR knew that LE had already been down in the basement before FW checked the wine cellar the first time. How was JR to know that LE didn't open up the door and shine a flashlight into the room and without seeing JB, close the door and come back upstairs? It would be a risky and flat out stupid movie to make if he was simply trying to put JB's body in view of where someone would see it. He had to have known that her body would eventually be found regardless of where the body was located during that time. It just doesn't make sense to move it to another room when he couldn't be sure how extensively the room was searched before that moment.

 

[UKGuy]

I simply don't believe this could be the case. I mean, I guess there's always a faint possibility that she was moved from another room in the basement, but i'm assuming JR knew that LE had already been down in the basement before FW checked the wine cellar the first time. How was JR to know that LE didn't open up the door and shine a flashlight into the room and without seeing JB, close the door and come back upstairs? It would be a risky and flat out stupid movie to make if he was simply trying to put JB's body in view of where someone would see it. He had to have known that her body would eventually be found regardless of where the body was located during that time. It just doesn't make sense to move it to another room when he couldn't be sure how extensively the room was searched before that moment.

shotgunhomicide,
I tend to agree with you. But it is helpful to offer an explanation for FW's failure to observe JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

How was JR to know that LE didn't open up the door and shine a flashlight into the room and without seeing JB, close the door and come back upstairs?

Well FW had a look and saw nothing!

It could be JonBenet was hidden away somewhere else in the basement, and once JR thought she was not going to be found, decided to move her into the wine-cellar?

JR might have thought it was less suspicious to directly find her in the wine-cellar than some other less accessable location.

It just doesn't make sense to move it to another room when he couldn't be sure how extensively the room was searched before that moment.

Possibly not for us, but somebody redressed JonBenet in those size-12's and left a blood-stained, pink barbie nightgown beside her body, and we have yet to make sense of this. So a move may have satisfied JR,s agenda?

That FW missed JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket, along with a blood-stained, pink barbie nightgown, a barbie doll, and various partially opened gifts, some of whose contents may have been on the floor, seems odd, maybe its as DeeDee249 suggests that JonBenet was towards the back, and JR moved her closer to the front?

This is why I would like to see FW do an interview on this topic, I doubt it would affect any legal outcome.



.

 

[DeeDee249]

FW did not have a flashlight with him when he made his early first trip to the basement, I do not believe. He never mentioned having one, and said he did not turn on the light to the WC because he could not locate the light switch, which was in an odd place on a wall outside the room itself.
Keep in mind the extreme stress of the situation and FW's state of mind at the time. He likely looked in quickly, saw nothing unusual to him. Of course, he probably did not know what that room had in it on any other day. There was clutter in there, paint cans, window screens, etc. But JB was not completely covered with that blanket. Her legs (in light-colored longjohns and bare pale feet, and her head and arms were exposed, also having the pallor of death. Everything about that corpse was WHITE and should have reflected the ambient light shining in from the area outside the WC door. White blanket, white face, blonde hair, white pants, white feet. The pink nightie was a pale pink and might have looked gray or white in the dim light, and the color may not have "popped" enough to stand out. Also, we only saw the pink nightie on top of the white blanket AFTER JR unwrapped JB. We do not know the exact position of the pink nightie before the white blanket was disturbed.
However, if she was covered up with something ELSE as well, that might have kept her from being seen in the darkness. As I recall from crime photos, wasn't there a large piece of sheet metal that was found in that room? Possibly one that was placed over the floor safe. The husband of the neighbor that heard the scream heard a sound he described as "metal scraping concrete" right after his wife woke him when she heard the scream.
There were paint cans that may have been moved to make room for the body, but it could have been that sheet metal too.
LE tested the light in that room coming in from the area outside the WC door and felt the body could have been seen, even with the light in the WC off. However, they did not do this test with the body in situ, and I don't know if they put anything light-colored on the floor.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

Possibly not for us, but somebody redressed JonBenet in those size-12's and left a blood-stained, pink barbie nightgown beside her body, and we have yet to make sense of this. So a move may have satisfied JR,s agenda?

That FW missed JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket, along with a blood-stained, pink barbie nightgown, a barbie doll, and various partially opened gifts, some of whose contents may have been on the floor, seems odd, maybe its as DeeDee249 suggests that JonBenet was towards the back, and JR moved her closer to the front?

.

By some accounts, the wine cellar was an inaccessible location. It makes little to no sense (to me) to relocate the body from another location in the basement to a rarely used, windowless room. I could accept that perhaps her body was in the crawl space initially, I still have a difficult time trying to figure out how this move could benefit the R's in such a way to risk blowing the lid off the whole thing by moving her to an area that could have already been thoroughly searched for all he knew. I don't think the benefits outweighed the risks unless her body was previously placed in a location that would have been unknown to anyone that didn't live in the house.

I make the presumption that the entire scene in the wine cellar was staging on the R's part, so I'm personally lead to believe that the body was in the wine cellar the entire time. I do think it's probable that the body could have been moved closer to the door once it became clear that no one had looked closely enough to spot JB's body, the blanket, the barbie and the nighty.

 

[meganx3xo]

I am curious- where would her body have been before the wine celllar, if moved at all?

 

[UKGuy]

By some accounts, the wine cellar was an inaccessible location. It makes little to no sense (to me) to relocate the body from another location in the basement to a rarely used, windowless room. I could accept that perhaps her body was in the crawl space initially, I still have a difficult time trying to figure out how this move could benefit the R's in such a way to risk blowing the lid off the whole thing by moving her to an area that could have already been thoroughly searched for all he knew. I don't think the benefits outweighed the risks unless her body was previously placed in a location that would have been unknown to anyone that didn't live in the house.

I make the presumption that the entire scene in the wine cellar was staging on the R's part, so I'm personally lead to believe that the body was in the wine cellar the entire time. I do think it's probable that the body could have been moved closer to the door once it became clear that no one had looked closely enough to spot JB's body, the blanket, the barbie and the nighty.

shotgunhomicide,

It makes little to no sense (to me) to relocate the body from another location in the basement to a rarely used, windowless room.

Lots off stuff do not make sense in this case. One reason I can offer is the relocation and separation of evidence.

I make the presumption that the entire scene in the wine cellar was staging on the R's part, so I'm personally lead to believe that the body was in the wine cellar the entire time.

Well your presumption is wrong. This is why the possibility exists that JonBenet was moved. The wine-cellar was not a staged crime-scene, shall I repeat that? There was no scene fabricated so to make it appear JonBenet drew her last breath in the wine-cellar. JonBenet was simply placed into the wine-cellar out of sight, this can be its only function.

Nearly everything on JonBenet's person including the garrote, was staged, then she was wrapped in a white blanket and dumped into the wine-cellar. But the latter contained no signs of struggle, no blood spatters, no bloodied weapon, just JonBenet wrapped in a blanket, surrounded by unrelated artifacts. A staged crime-scene would display some semblance of the relationship of the scene to the victim.

So it appears JonBenet was staged for a crime-scene, but not the one in the wine-cellar. Which suggests either there was a prior staged crime-scene upstairs, which was abandonded for the Abduction Scenario, e.g. the latter is not staged, or JonBenet had been placed elsewhere in the basement. JR may have decided to relocate JonBenet including context specific evidence e.g. pink nightgown, barbie doll to the wine-cellar, since he realized something was amiss with the prior crime-scene. Think about the contents of the suitcase from the guests bedroom. There maybe evidence in the basement that has been relocated?

So we have a staged JonBenet but no staged crime-scene, just a windowless room, housing unrelated artifacts.

Now if the pink nightgown was contained in the white blanket as some suggest, then this implies that JonBenet was indeed moved from another location, with the nightgown being deliberately moved too. Remember it was bloodstained, so it never fell out the drier, the white blanket has no similar bloodstains.

That FW claims to have not seen JonBenet earlier that morning is consistent with JonBenet being moved.

I do think it's probable that the body could have been moved closer to the door once it became clear that no one had looked closely enough to spot JB's body, the blanket, the barbie and the nighty.

Yes, entirely possible, including the default position, that FW did just miss her.


Then again why stage a body that is intended never to be found?




.

 

[Whaleshark]

Now if the pink nightgown was contained in the white blanket as some suggest, then this implies that JonBenet was indeed moved from another location, with the nightgown being deliberately moved too. Remember it was bloodstained, so it never fell out the drier, the white blanket has no similar bloodstains.

...I believe the white blanket did have bloodstains -

Screen capture of the DNA lab report shown on the 48 Hours program -

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

 

[DeeDee249]

...I believe the white blanket did have bloodstains -

Screen capture of the DNA lab report shown on the 48 Hours program -

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

Now I finally see how the confusion about saliva being found in her panties. But what this list really means is that JB's OWN saliva was swabbed. That would have been done routinely. Oral, vagina, anal and nasal swabs would be taken, possible the ears too. In the oral, vaginal and anal swabs they would be looking for the presence of semen as well as blood, and as we know, no semen was found anywhere in or on JB. The only semen found in the basement was on JAR's black comforter (aka blanket) that was found in the suitcase. As much as the RST like Lou Smit would want that suitcase to be part of the crime, there is nothing that proves it was involved in the crime or staging at all. The semen was dried, and therefore it is impossible to prove when it was left.
The last line is confusing. Did they FIND a bloodstain from JAR? Or does that mean they took a blood sample?

 

[UKGuy]

...I believe the white blanket did have bloodstains -

Screen capture of the DNA lab report shown on the 48 Hours program -

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

Whaleshark,
oops, I believe your right. I think I've gone over this before wrt matching the bloodstains via dna e.g. to the nose, mouth, genitals etc.

This and Burkes fingerprints on the tea glass, and pineapple bowl I sometimes forget about since it is not always discussed.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Now I finally see how the confusion about saliva being found in her panties. But what this list really means is that JB's OWN saliva was swabbed. That would have been done routinely. Oral, vagina, anal and nasal swabs would be taken, possible the ears too. In the oral, vaginal and anal swabs they would be looking for the presence of semen as well as blood, and as we know, no semen was found anywhere in or on JB. The only semen found in the basement was on JAR's black comforter (aka blanket) that was found in the suitcase. As much as the RST like Lou Smit would want that suitcase to be part of the crime, there is nothing that proves it was involved in the crime or staging at all. The semen was dried, and therefore it is impossible to prove when it was left.
The last line is confusing. Did they FIND a bloodstain from JAR? Or does that mean they took a blood sample?

DeeDee249,

The last line is confusing. Did they FIND a bloodstain from JAR? Or does that mean they took a blood sample?

Not sure about this there is no # id, I think it is simply a summary heading by CBS, itemising all the other people who had samples taken? Then again why not state saliva sample, follicle sample etc, so maybe it is a bloodstain which for me suggests forensic evidence?

I think it was LW who released this report to CBS, he probably had JR's permission, with the intention of clearing the R's since the unknown touch dna did not match an R oe relative?



.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

Uk, I'm confused by your statement about the crime scene being staged. I get what you meant that there's nothing to suggest that the wine cellar was the room where JB was killed, but on another thread, you said "Since the crime-scene is staged much of what we consider forensic evidence might simply be contrived, and what some percieve as undoing might represent fabrications created for a quite different purpose."

Can you please clarify that for me? or was it simply a confused statement?

Thanks in advanced!

 

[UKGuy]

Uk, I'm confused by your statement about the crime scene being staged. I get what you meant that there's nothing to suggest that the wine cellar was the room where JB was killed, but on another thread, you said "Since the crime-scene is staged much of what we consider forensic evidence might simply be contrived, and what some percieve as undoing might represent fabrications created for a quite different purpose."

Can you please clarify that for me? or was it simply a confused statement?

Thanks in advanced!

shotgunhomicide,

Can you please clarify that for me? or was it simply a confused statement?

Sure, that was intended to highlight the problem with interpreting some of the forensic evidence as undoing, which it might be, then again it may have been deliberately introduced to misdirect any investigation, e.g. the garrote.

What we label the crime-scene e.g. wine-cellar is not the primary crime-scene. The wine-cellar itself has not been staged to correspond with some imagined homicide. JonBenet's person has been staged, nearly everything she is wearing down to the white blanket has been introduced by someone else.

So someone has gone to the bother of staging JonBenet for some imagined crime-scene then abandoned it, and placed JonBenet into the wine-cellar.

So when we talk about the staged crime-scene its really shorthand for all of the above.

 

[DeeDee249]

This is a multi-crime scene area. This crime had six parts- molestation, head bash, strangulation, death, staging the body and crime scene and writing the note to point to an intruder. The separate elements took place in several areas, and the much-too-quick release of the house to the family meant that there had to be a lot of evidence that was not only missed, but never even searched for.
The truth is that it was never determined where JB actually, died, where the head bash took place, etc. We may assume what we can- some things seem likely- the note written right there in the location where the pen and paper were kept, using the flashlight, also kept in the area and found there as well. The alleged urine stains on the basement carpet in an area near the wineceller suggest death took place there...the small amounts of blood on her pillowcase suggest a head bash in her room, where it is possible the pink nightie may have picked up some blood droplets, had it been on the bed or on JB when the head bash occurred. The wood splinters matching the broken paintbrush used to make the handle of the garrote were right next to the paint tote, in the basement near the wineceller.
There were fragments of fake green garland in her hair. There was a fake green garland wrapped around the railing of the spiral stairs, but that does not necessarily mean she was carried down the stairs dead or unconscious, as the same fake garland was present in the basement, especially the wineceller, where ll the garland as well as artificial trees, were stored. The garland was never tested, as far as we know, to see if it matched the garland from the stairs or the fake trees.
We just don't know what was done where. And the house was "sold" after the Rs returned to Atlanta, whereupon all the carpets were pulled up and the walls whitewashed.