Theories discussion: What could have happened to Haleigh? #4

[elle1919]

Elle-
You said, “Yet they still thought the children were safer and better off with Ronald”
Perhaps I should have asked, “better with Ronald as opposed to whom?” instead of bringing up CS. To say that they were "better off" with RC would imply that they WOULD be better off with someone else. My assumption was that the other person you were inferring to was CS.

I highly doubt that DCF said specifically that the children were better off with RC. My statement was, “DCF found no compelling reason to remove the children from the status quo... It just means that DCF didn't find anything in their investigation at the time to come to the conclusion that the children were in any immediate danger.”

Nothing in that statement means that RC is a super parent or that he doesn’t have issues. It just means that DCF didn’t find anything bad enough to remove the children. It is a pretty generic statement that just sounds important.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, sometimes I like to do a little reading before I respond so that I am able to post a fact based response rather than one that is filled with only opinion. Don't get me wrong, opinions are fine and I love to read them but in this case where you and others are questioning the integrity and performance of a state agency I wanted to make sure I knew something about said agency.

For instance did you know that the Florida Department of Children and Families Services are arranged and grouped by circuits and regions? To put the information out there and say that the horror stories that you have heard about Florida DCF as opposed to other state DCF agencies are far worse is defamatory in my opinion. Do you know the statistics for the Northeast Region? All regions are actually separated further into circuits, and the Northeast Region is actually covered by circuit 7 which includes St. John's, Putnam, Flagler and Volusia counties. Administrator of this region is Reggie Williams. Also, upon receiving a report of suspected child abuse the investigator must immediately locate prior reports or cases of child abuse, abandonment, or neglect
through utilization of the department's automated tracking system.

Not only does the Department of Children and Families complete and investigate allegations but in cases where the report involves
child abuse, abandonment, and neglect the child
protection teams of the Department of Health are notified for an assessment and other appropriate available support
services as set forth in subsection (1) must include cases involving:
(a) Injuries to the head, bruises to the neck or head, burns, or fractures in a child of any age.
(b) Bruises anywhere on a child 5 years of age or under.
(c) Any report alleging sexual abuse of a child.
(d) Any sexually transmitted disease in a prepubescent child.
(e) Reported malnutrition of a child and failure of a child to thrive.
(f) Reported medical neglect of a child.
(g) Any family in which one or more children have been pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital or
other health care facility, or have been injured and later died, as a result of suspected abuse, abandonment,
or neglect, when any sibling or other child remains in the home.


All information I posted can be viewed here
: http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/publications/

In regards to your response to my post, I can respect your opinion but I obviously disagree. You are placing judgment on the Department of Children and Families, and Ronald, without having seen evidence or a case file to prove there was an error in their decision or findings, and you have arrived at this opinion because you have heard "far more horror stories of this branch of DCF than any other state." You think the system doesn't work, but I think that it is the only system that we have and it is wrong to assume because of "many horror stories" such as children being maimed or murdered, that the system is going to fail in every case. They don't in my opinion. I never stated that RC was a super parent, but he is a good enough parent that he has retained custody and parental responsibility for his children even though there have been numerous complaints of abuse against him.
JMHO

 

[elle1919]

I also understand that this conversation is completely off topic for the thread so if you would like to continue to discuss DCF perhaps you can open a new thread.

 

[curvecuti]

Welcome! I have always kind of wondered that too. Especially when they held that "estate sale" and got rid of a lot of things, but never moved. Another thing I've wondered about is after Lindsy had a seizure recently, her mother said she was under so much stress and going to school. I thought she was supposedly graduating in Aug from lpn school. Did she go on to get her RN instead or why is she still in school when they were expecting to move to Belize or where ever earlier in the year? So many things don't make sense.

This was a rumor. IIRC, none of them ever said they were moving to Belize.

 

[lil momma]

With all due respect, i live in Florida and i honestly think the system here fails more than they help......

If you google FL DCF Failed investigations, you will find a bunch of cases. Below i have posted a link regarding several caseworkers getting in trouble for make false reports, as well as 14 children being "lost" in state custody....

Not saying that other states don't have bad apples but in Florida, it is an everyday thing..and that is very sad to me.

and i realize i am in the wrong thread, so that is it..darn it! forgot to add the link...oops!


http://www.theledger.com/article/20...e=Falsified-DCF-Reports-Cheating-the-Children

 

[curvecuti]

With all due respect, i live in Florida and i honestly think the system here fails more than they help......

If you google FL DCF Failed investigations, you will find a bunch of cases. Below i have posted a link regarding several caseworkers getting in trouble for make false reports, as well as 14 children being "lost" in state custody....

Not saying that other states don't have bad apples but in Florida, it is an everyday thing..and that is very sad to me.

and i realize i am in the wrong thread, so that is it..darn it! forgot to add the link...oops!


http://www.theledger.com/article/20...e=Falsified-DCF-Reports-Cheating-the-Children

While I agree that DCF is overworked and understaffed and does make the occasional really bad mistake, I think in RC's case, since he has been reported more than once, and has a missing child, they would investigate him w/ MORE due diligence than normal. Especially since they know from the reports rec. that alot of folks on the Internet are watching. moo.

 

[Gotarugrat]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, sometimes I like to do a little reading before I respond so that I am able to post a fact based response rather than one that is filled with only opinion. Don't get me wrong, opinions are fine and I love to read them but in this case where you and others are questioning the integrity and performance of a state agency I wanted to make sure I knew something about said agency.

For instance did you know that the Florida Department of Children and Families Services are arranged and grouped by circuits and regions? To put the information out there and say that the horror stories that you have heard about Florida DCF as opposed to other state DCF agencies are far worse is defamatory in my opinion. Do you know the statistics for the Northeast Region? All regions are actually separated further into circuits, and the Northeast Region is actually covered by circuit 7 which includes St. John's, Putnam, Flagler and Volusia counties. Administrator of this region is Reggie Williams. Also, upon receiving a report of suspected child abuse the investigator must immediately locate prior reports or cases of child abuse, abandonment, or neglect
through utilization of the department's automated tracking system.

Not only does the Department of Children and Families complete and investigate allegations but in cases where the report involves
child abuse, abandonment, and neglect the child
protection teams of the Department of Health are notified for an assessment and other appropriate available support
services as set forth in subsection (1) must include cases involving:
(a) Injuries to the head, bruises to the neck or head, burns, or fractures in a child of any age.
(b) Bruises anywhere on a child 5 years of age or under.
(c) Any report alleging sexual abuse of a child.
(d) Any sexually transmitted disease in a prepubescent child.
(e) Reported malnutrition of a child and failure of a child to thrive.
(f) Reported medical neglect of a child.
(g) Any family in which one or more children have been pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital or
other health care facility, or have been injured and later died, as a result of suspected abuse, abandonment,
or neglect, when any sibling or other child remains in the home.


All information I posted can be viewed here
: http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/publications/

In regards to your response to my post, I can respect your opinion but I obviously disagree. You are placing judgment on the Department of Children and Families, and Ronald, without having seen evidence or a case file to prove there was an error in their decision or findings, and you have arrived at this opinion because you have heard "far more horror stories of this branch of DCF than any other state." You think the system doesn't work, but I think that it is the only system that we have and it is wrong to assume because of "many horror stories" such as children being maimed or murdered, that the system is going to fail in every case. They don't in my opinion. I never stated that RC was a super parent, but he is a good enough parent that he has retained custody and parental responsibility for his children even though there have been numerous complaints of abuse against him.
JMHO

*sigh*

Listen. I'm not arguing what DCF does or is supposed to do. I am fully aware.
I only stated what I've heard PERSONALLY in the news on TV and on the radio and in local papers. I watch/listen/and read more negative stories about Florida's DCF than any other state. Florida's DCF has a horrible reputation. My saying what I hear in my news programs six states away isn't defamatory. It just is.

Heck! I even went as far as saying those people who work in DCF are overworked, underpaid and don't have the resources that they need. How is that being defamitory of the agency or the people who work there?

I also never said that I arrived at this opinion because of their bad reputation. I never said that the system fails in every case.
I only said that DCF didn't find anything bad enough with RC's household to remove the children at that time. Period.

...and just like with the rest of this so called "investigation" I believe there are things that have been overlooked or deemed unimportant by more than one agency. In the grand scheme of things the standard for being a parent (legally) is pretty low.

I stand by my belief that before other avenues are so fully explored MC and RC need to be cleared. They haven't been.

While I'm probably wrong on some of the details (this is the Theory thread after all) I stand by my theory that MC had something major to do with Haleigh's disapperance/abduction and that RC knows far more than he lets on. So much so that he is just as responsible as MC.

Now, could we PLEASE drop this whole DCF thing?

 

[elle1919]

With all due respect, i live in Florida and i honestly think the system here fails more than they help......

If you google FL DCF Failed investigations, you will find a bunch of cases. Below i have posted a link regarding several caseworkers getting in trouble for make false reports, as well as 14 children being "lost" in state custody....

Not saying that other states don't have bad apples but in Florida, it is an everyday thing..and that is very sad to me.

and i realize i am in the wrong thread, so that is it..darn it! forgot to add the link...oops!


http://www.theledger.com/article/20...e=Falsified-DCF-Reports-Cheating-the-Children

Thank you for that article lil momma, Lakeland isn't actually in the Northeast Region or in circuit 7.

The article was disturbing, but it was based on an investigation into the welfare system and the investigators who had a caseload of children already in the DCF system and these investigators were in charge of monitoring the childcare's care.

snip~Whether the cause is untrustworthy caseworkers or unrealistic caseloads, it's clear that the DCF, the governor and the Legislature have work to do to ensure children's safety under the state's care.
~ end snip

the children in those reports were already under the state's care.

What is being asserted here, and on other threads is that DCF failed in their numerous investigations of Ronald Cummings and allowed the children to remain in is care even though they were at risk. I don't think that is accurate. jmo

 

[lil momma]

While I agree that DCF is overworked and understaffed and does make the occasional really bad mistake, I think in RC's case, since he has been reported more than once, and has a missing child, they would investigate him w/ MORE due diligence than normal. Especially since they know from the reports rec. that alot of folks on the Internet are watching. moo.

I agree curve, however since no one has access to those reports, it is hard to say, ya know? IDK, i just have absolutely no trust in FL DCF. I have seen way too many children (some even personally known) placed in foster homes that were actually worse for the child than the home they were in with their parents. Whether it be physical abuse, sexual abuse, or verbal abuse, it just sickens me. And please don't get me wrong, i know there are good foster parents who do provide very loving homes for these abused children.

I think it boils down to, Can you trust a DCF worker? and honestly, i can't answer that either, but if i had too judging from what i have personally seen, no, i can't. JMO

(i will BBL, i have to go get the little one from school.)

 

[Gotarugrat]

I'm out until Monday. See you all then!

 

[curvecuti]

I agree curve, however since no one has access to those reports, it is hard to say, ya know? IDK, i just have absolutely no trust in FL DCF. I have seen way too many children (some even personally known) placed in foster homes that were actually worse for the child than the home they were in with their parents. Whether it be physical abuse, sexual abuse, or verbal abuse, it just sickens me. And please don't get me wrong, i know there are good foster parents who do provide very loving homes for these abused children.

I think it boils down to, Can you trust a DCF worker? and honestly, i can't answer that either, but if i had too judging from what i have personally seen, no, i can't. JMO

(i will BBL, i have to go get the little one from school.)

All true. And in this case, the kids were between a rock and a hard place from the beginning. Their Mother was/is a drug abuser that used even when she was pregnant, and RC, well, he has his problems too, although imo, drug use is not one of those problems. So it would be hard to take the kids, especially w/ no proof of abuse at all, from the only parent that has fully supported and raised them, and give them to a parent that won't even take them to the Dr. and does not work, nor pay child support. I do sympathize w/ DCF, but I also think they made the correct decision in regards to Jr. all moo.

 

[Emeralgem]

Thank you for that article lil momma, Lakeland isn't actually in the Northeast Region or in circuit 7.

The article was disturbing, but it was based on an investigation into the welfare system and the investigators who had a caseload of children already in the DCF system and these investigators were in charge of monitoring the childcare's care.

snip~Whether the cause is untrustworthy caseworkers or unrealistic caseloads, it's clear that the DCF, the governor and the Legislature have work to do to ensure children's safety under the state's care.
~ end snip

the children in those reports were already under the state's care.

What is being asserted here, and on other threads is that DCF failed in their numerous investigations of Ronald Cummings and allowed the children to remain in is care even though they were at risk. I don't think that is accurate. jmo

I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree considering what we NOW know about this case...JMO

 

[lil momma]

Thank you for that article lil momma, Lakeland isn't actually in the Northeast Region or in circuit 7.

The article was disturbing, but it was based on an investigation into the welfare system and the investigators who had a caseload of children already in the DCF system and these investigators were in charge of monitoring the childcare's care.

snip~Whether the cause is untrustworthy caseworkers or unrealistic caseloads, it's clear that the DCF, the governor and the Legislature have work to do to ensure children's safety under the state's care.
~ end snip

the children in those reports were already under the state's care.

What is being asserted here, and on other threads is that DCF failed in their numerous investigations of Ronald Cummings and allowed the children to remain in is care even though they were at risk. I don't think that is accurate. jmo

BBM and JMO

Did i mention anything about Ron and his investigation? NOPE. As a resident of Florida, i hear it, and see it every single day on the local news. I just wanted to point out that just b/c DCF says there is no evidence of abuse, doesn't always mean they have followed up on the case, or even visited the home.

That is it...i think i am going to have to go back downstairs, it is much more pleasent down there.

 

[Whisperer]

Gotarug....thanks for giving it the ole colleg try....much appreciated. Have a great weekend.

 

[Whisperer]

I don't think most people unerstand the working of Government agencies when it comes to criminals and children services. The government does not do a good job at either. The Parole Officers and DCF both fail. That is because the accountability is low. They go by the rules and don't ever go outside the line. I can say this is most likely the case because I have personally witnessed abductors (some you know) leave the prison. Their criteria for parole is not based on "would you want them living next door to you" but based on their "rights" that the staff thinks they should have. I can tell you with the sweep of a pen that most of these SOs could be held for the full lenght of the sentence but are not. This happens because some "FEEL" that they should be given a chance. The other reason is fear, fear of being wrong, making a mistake, or fear of the legal system......sames goes for DCF.

When it comes to our children, there should be input and common sense used. You do not find these things for the most part in any government agency.

 

[Whisperer]

I have personally witnessed the system ask psych staff about a prisoner and what they think he would do if released. They asked for their opinion to see if they would predict what the chances are of him repeating.

In every case...the staff refused to answer the question. Public employees are unlikely to put themselves "out there". They tend to protect their own butt first. The system does not follow through and just accepts that they do not have to answer that question LEGALLY......Ultimately, the predators walk out.

 

[LFlorida]

I knew I had heard this before in a presser, but could not find reference to it. Roblyn had posted it on 2/12 on one of the very early FL-AMBER ALERT threads. [t/y Roblyn!]

LE going back 30 days now.

A few items from the house including Cinder block sent to crime lab for rush.TH looking for prints etc..

LE still has control of the house.

Dad staying in a tent.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3301847&postcount=277

 

[EastCoast]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, sometimes I like to do a little reading before I respond so that I am able to post a fact based response rather than one that is filled with only opinion. Don't get me wrong, opinions are fine and I love to read them but in this case where you and others are questioning the integrity and performance of a state agency I wanted to make sure I knew something about said agency.

For instance did you know that the Florida Department of Children and Families Services are arranged and grouped by circuits and regions? To put the information out there and say that the horror stories that you have heard about Florida DCF as opposed to other state DCF agencies are far worse is defamatory in my opinion. Do you know the statistics for the Northeast Region? All regions are actually separated further into circuits, and the Northeast Region is actually covered by circuit 7 which includes St. John's, Putnam, Flagler and Volusia counties. Administrator of this region is Reggie Williams. Also, upon receiving a report of suspected child abuse the investigator must immediately locate prior reports or cases of child abuse, abandonment, or neglect
through utilization of the department's automated tracking system.

Not only does the Department of Children and Families complete and investigate allegations but in cases where the report involves
child abuse, abandonment, and neglect the child
protection teams of the Department of Health are notified for an assessment and other appropriate available support
services as set forth in subsection (1) must include cases involving:
(a) Injuries to the head, bruises to the neck or head, burns, or fractures in a child of any age.
(b) Bruises anywhere on a child 5 years of age or under.
(c) Any report alleging sexual abuse of a child.
(d) Any sexually transmitted disease in a prepubescent child.
(e) Reported malnutrition of a child and failure of a child to thrive.
(f) Reported medical neglect of a child.
(g) Any family in which one or more children have been pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital or
other health care facility, or have been injured and later died, as a result of suspected abuse, abandonment,
or neglect, when any sibling or other child remains in the home.


All information I posted can be viewed here
: http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/publications/

In regards to your response to my post, I can respect your opinion but I obviously disagree. You are placing judgment on the Department of Children and Families, and Ronald, without having seen evidence or a case file to prove there was an error in their decision or findings, and you have arrived at this opinion because you have heard "far more horror stories of this branch of DCF than any other state." You think the system doesn't work, but I think that it is the only system that we have and it is wrong to assume because of "many horror stories" such as children being maimed or murdered, that the system is going to fail in every case. They don't in my opinion. I never stated that RC was a super parent, but he is a good enough parent that he has retained custody and parental responsibility for his children even though there have been numerous complaints of abuse against him.
JMHO

Thank you Elle for all the research. I think that is awesome.

 

[doobiedoo52]

This was a rumor. IIRC, none of them ever said they were moving to Belize.

OK Belize was a rumor. I still wonder about the rest of my statement. Is she back in school?

 

[Emeralgem]

OK Belize was a rumor. I still wonder about the rest of my statement. Is she back in school?

I don't know if she graduated or not, but I highly suspect the reason they didn't move right after the yard sale was due to the fact Tommy was arrested...IIRC their plans were to move to Mass where Timmy and Chelsey are..JMO

 

[Whisperer]

It would be good to figure out why LE wants to poly the people that was with Haleigh just days before the crime.....and who are they? Can't be misty if what we heard is true.

They're going back 30 days has to be a clue in there no one has thought of. That brings us to January 11, 2009 to February 9, 20009. What was the behavior of the family during those 30 days that would lead LE to a reason for Haleigh disappearing or worse.

We know nothing. When did rc REALLY start working at PDM. He had just moved to Green in November with his new love child of 16 yrs of age. Is there something in that?

This Mexican house the girls visited a few days before.....does that play in? I was reading somewhere that there are houses of prostitution run by the mexicans down there, true? Is rc involved in any of this? Misty and Nay went in and we don't know if she was there before. We can't take Nay's word on anything due to drug use. Is rc a user of drugs, alcohol? addiction to either? How does Jerome fit in? Who are rc's contacts? I cannot believe he is clueless or abstanite of drugs.....all his associates around him appear to be users. We know of three girls he was heavily involved with who all were users. He may have supplied them to keep them or lure them.

What was going on in the thirty days prior?