Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[LancelotLink]

Very good point! Where did you hear this about George?

Also, does anyone have any information about these neighbors who supposedly heard someone in the pool on the 16th? I've read almost every transcript that's been discovered and I haven't read anything like that. If anyone has any info, I'd love to hear it.

By the way, love the Lancelot Link reference. Boy, does that bring back fun memories.

Thanks. I loved Lance and Mata.
Thanks to Shaymus as well.
I found a link to the audio of the neighbor's interview.
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedfiles/audio/BrianBurner.WMA

 

[reeseeva]

Thanks. I loved Lance and Mata.
Thanks to Shaymus as well.
I found a link to the audio of the neighbor's interview.
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedfiles/audio/BrianBurner.WMA

This is the only neighbor that was interviewed that we know of........there are other neighbors as well......According to this neighbor's intervies, he was away until 6pm on the 16th, so he isn't the one to have heard shouting on the 15th?

 

[BellaPhia]

Yep, I've been wondering about the bathing suit too......also wondered since the remains were so scattered if they could tell if she was wearing it, or if it was just in the bag.........but, I haven't seen any info yet.

I also had asked early on about missing bathing suits.

Too expand on the bathing suit theories....on 6/16 when Casey is shown on the Blockbuster video it looks as if she is wearing a men's athletic jersey, the kind with open sides...so to me it would seem as if she may be wearing a bathing suit underneath.....its not a clear video...but it could be tied into the theory of a pool accident.....

 

[LancelotLink]

This is the only neighbor that was interviewed that we know of........there are other neighbors as well......According to this neighbor's intervies, he was away until 6pm on the 16th, so he isn't the one to have heard shouting on the 15th?

Good question! If I recall, he said he had heard two arguments, not sure now what days. I will go investigate!

 

[eddeva]

It occurred to me that even though Casey gave a false statement to the police, she may have "marked" certain actual timing spots in her story as she created it.

With that in mind, I thought it might be interesting to try to reconstruct the events of June 16 by using Casey's original statement as a template.

i think this is a wonderful idea, indigo.

 

[tx_Dot]

Too expand on the bathing suit theories....on 6/16 when Casey is shown on the Blockbuster video it looks as if she is wearing a men's athletic jersey, the kind with open sides...so to me it would seem as if she may be wearing a bathing suit underneath.....its not a clear video...but it could be tied into the theory of a pool accident.....

LOL......fits right in, as not much in this saga has been "clear"....

between phone/computer activity on the 16th, wonder how KC would of had time to swim too ??

 

[Indigo]

Hi BellaPhia,

Just a thought here on the accident theory. I'm wondering how Casey could possibly have determined,without a question of a doubt, that Caylee was dead. Caylee could still have had active brainwaves. It's not unusual for drowning victims, especially children, to appear dead when they are not.

IMO, if Casey found Caylee unresponsive, she would have had no way of determining how long Caylee had been in that condition. If she wasn't watching Caylee, how could she know for sure how long Caylee had been under the water?

If the accident theory is to be believed, Casey does not hope beyond hope that Caylee can be brought back to life. Instead she takes very little time to deliberate and then stashes Caylee somewhere instead. A few short hours later Casey carries on with her life and doesn't miss a beat or a Friday out ever after.

 

[tx_Dot]

This is the only neighbor that was interviewed that we know of........there are other neighbors as well......According to this neighbor's intervies, he was away until 6pm on the 16th, so he isn't the one to have heard shouting on the 15th?

Good question! If I recall, he said he had heard two arguments, not sure now what days. I will go investigate!

some are saying another neighbor talks of 2 loud arguments (between KC & CA) from the A's house, he only knew they happened on 'weekends' (guess he must work), said one ended when CA jumped in her car & left.

not the same neighbor (Brian ??) that returned from vacation on the 16th.

 

[Indigo]

Here's an example of near-drowning in a child. Thankfully, Aaliyah fully recovered:

<snipped>

No one knows just how long the girl was underwater. But as they pulled her lifeless body from the surf, they knew the seriousness of the situation.
Aaliyah wasn’t breathing. Her face was ashen.
Emergency rescue personnel arrived and performed CPR on the beach. As minutes ticked away, the prospect of her recovery dimmed. But after possibly 25 minutes without oxygen, Aaliyah’s pulse and respiration returned – just barely.

http://www.chkd.org/Patients/Stories/Aaliyah.aspx

 

[JWG]

Can you help me out with the duct tape explanation? My first thought was wrapping it around her head would make it harder for Caylee to pull off. However, with your drowning scenario, where does the duct tape come into play? Thanks.

LE has not confirmed this, but let's assume that duct tape was present. If it was originally wrapped around the head, it would come off during the process of decomposition. The ME stated in no uncertain terms that the body was completely skeletonized and no tissue remained. So rumors that duct tape was found wrapped tightly across the skull's mouth do not make sense.

The bag may have been wrapped in duct tape to keep it closed. Animals tore into the bag over time, but the tape would have been largely intact. It may be that when the "skull rolled out" of the bag it rolled onto a jangle of taped-bag. Another possibility is that Casey taped the mouth on the 19th of June when she noticed decompositional fluid leaking from the mouth. This would help account for tape near the skull. I think the tape on bag theory is more plausible.

Also consider KC's behavior towards her daughter in every single interview with friends and family. Not one ever mentions anything but a loving and doting mother - ever. They do not hold back on her lying and thieving. While it might make an interesting plot in a crime novel, I do not see KC suddenly doing something as inhumane and cruel as wrapping duct tape around the head of her live daughter.

Then why not call 911. It just dosn't make any sence.

I believe this is where KC's fear of Cindy comes into play. I am not saying it is a normal reaction, but if KC had a dead child on her hands due to negligence, she would have known that 911 was not going to save her but that she had even more to lose in terms of her mother's love and approval. The relationship was clearly unhealthy, and I think it provided the impetus for KC to step into her alternate reality. KC had already developed a well-hewn skill of lying with a straight face.

I don't subscribe to the accident theory either. I would ask JWG why he believes drowning? My understanding is that the unusually high levels of chloroform found in KC's trunk were not a result of pool chemicals. Also, my recollection was that cadaver dogs did not hit on the pool, rather on other areas of the backyard. In addition, I believe I saw one report earlier on (on CNN) that if there had been a drowning, there would have been significant evidence (vomiting, other body fluids) in the pool water and that such evidence had not been found.

The child would likely not have vomited while drowning unless there was a resuscitation attempt, which would have not taken place in the water. Urine from a child that small in a pool would have been quite diluted.

As for the cadaver dogs, I am not sure they would hit on a "fresh" body - dead just a couple of minutes. But do remember that on the 18th Casey borrowed a shovel from the neighbor. I believe she intended to bury the body somewhere in the backyard, and she took the body back there while she attempted to dig a hole. The dogs hit on the location(s) she placed the body while trying to dig.

As for chloroform in the trunk. I posted on this elsewhere several days ago, but there are multiple sources. First, chloroform is formed when chlorinated water from swimming pools reacts with organic compounds, and decompositional fluid has organic compounds in it. The forensic report does not specify how much chloroform was measured, only that it was significant. Assume the amount formed due to drowning was not the sole source - where else would it come from?

Three other sources are possible. Some pesticides are manufactured using chloroform as a solvent. Did the parents use such a pesticide to kill the flies and maggots in the trunk? Dry cleaning fluid often contains chloroform. Did the parents use any in an attempt to clean the trunk liner? Fumigants often contain chloroform. Did the parents also use that in an attempt to kill the insects in the trunk?

I feel all of the above combined to create the source of the chloroform.

So......how do you come to terms with the searches for chloroform, missing children, household weapons and neck breaking? Also, the high levels of chloroform in the trunk and the possible duct tape on the body?

I also posted on the searches on another thread. I think KC looked up chloroform because she was not sure what it was, but had seen the infamous "Win her over with chloroform" picture on Ric's computer. Ric put the image on his myspace the day after KC did the first search. In fact, that image appeared on a number of unrelated myspace pages in March, 2008.

The second set of searches occurred on March 21:

21-Mar 14:16:30 Search how to make chloraform
14:16:30 Search how to make chloroform Google automatically suggested correct spelling
14:19:16 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:20:32 Search self defense
14:21:14 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:21:58 Search household weapons
14:22:01 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:23:08 Clicked a blog poll hosted by Google http://www.google.com/reviews/polls/...kclr=%235588aa
14:25:12 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:25:33 Search household weapons
14:25:54 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
14:26:18 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
14:26:24 Search neck breaking
14:28:18 Search shovel

Notice that one of the links is a women's self-defense book (visited twice) and the other is a zombie poll. All of this "research" was done in the span of 12 short minutes and we do not know what other non-Google websites were visited.

Rumor has it that Ricardo may have had a bit of a temper. So...KC finds the image on his myspace....researches chloroform...decides he might be capable of using it on her...researches self-defense...runs across suggestions of how some useful household items might be used in self-defense...such as a shovel...eventually "breaks up" with him in mid-April.

IMHO, the searches are unrelated to Caylee, but coincidentally helped the prosecution when no body was available.

As for the missing person's website visit, AFAIK there is not a single document in the various dumps that shows a search on or visit to such a site. This website visit was reported on Nancy Grace in September, but until I see the document detailing the search and placing it in context, no conclusion one way or the other can be made.

 

[BellaPhia]

Hi BellaPhia,

Just a thought here on the accident theory. I'm wondering how Casey could possibly have determined,without a question of a doubt, that Caylee was dead. Caylee could still have had active brainwaves. It's not unusual for drowning victims, especially children, to appear dead when they are not.

IMO, if Casey found Caylee unresponsive, she would have had no way of determining how long Caylee had been in that condition. If she wasn't watching Caylee, how could she know for sure how long Caylee had been under the water?

If the accident theory is to be believed, Casey does not hope beyond hope that Caylee can be brought back to life. Instead she takes very little time to deliberate and then stashes Caylee somewhere instead. A few short hours later Casey carries on with her life and doesn't miss a beat or a Friday out ever after.

I dont remember ever saying I thought it was an accident. All along I believed she killed Caylee knowingly. Maybe she was in the pool with her and drowned her...I dont know. Im just providing details that pertain to everyone's ideas of what happened. IMO Caylee died prior to the whole "pool" thing that may or may not have happened in the afternoon hours of the 16th.......but you know what...there are only two people who know what happened that day...one is dead and the other is in jail!

 

[LancelotLink]

some are saying another neighbor talks of 2 loud arguments (between KC & CA) from the A's house, he only knew they happened on 'weekends' (guess he must work), said one ended when CA jumped in her car & left.

not the same neighbor (Brian ??) that returned from vacation on the 16th.

Thank you. I'm searching the documents to find what neighbor it was. I recall hearing or reading that they witnessed KC storming out of the house, foul language, etc.

 

[TakeNote]

one thing I was looking at for June 16th

Computer activity stops around 3:00pm

2:52 PM call from JG 673 seconds-in JG interview he at first said he thought he heard Caylee in the back ground....Heard KC yell *get down off the table*
If this is true Caylee could not have been in the pool3:04 PM call from GA 25 seconds

ok....lets say JG didnt hear Caylee in the back ground and she was in the pool...and KC discovers that Caylee has drowned in the pool at 3:00 pm

This gives KC 35mins before she makes a all to AL

3:35 PM calls AL 22 seconds

Then KC has another 35 mins until the flury of calls start and she heads back to AL

4:10 PM calls GA at work 34 seconds
4:11 PM calls CA twice
4:13 PM calls CA twice
4:14 PM calls GA 98 seconds

4:18 PM texts AL (now appears to be travelling away from Anthony home)


4:19 PM text from AL
4:19 PM calls AL
4:21 PM calls JG twice; second call 75 seconds
4:25 PM calls CA 3 seconds (now pinging near AL's apt)
6:31 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls home

How does KC get Caylee out of the pool.....get all there things together.....plus KC's clothes would be wet.....so she would have to change....get her self together and head to Tony's and not skip a beat?

I just dont see how an hour would be enough time to do all of that....
but I have never had it happen to me either...... so who knows right....just thought I would throw that out there....

a loving mother wouldnt just scoop her baby up and throw her in the trunk and then head off to her boy friends house and act like nothing happend....she would call 911

just my thoughts.....

 

[reeseeva]

LOL......fits right in, as not much in this saga has been "clear"....

between phone/computer activity on the 16th, wonder how KC would of had time to swim too ??

:waitasec:

Looking at JWG's great research of computer/phone ativity that day, I have wondered the same thing.

To JWG, Is it possible that on the night of the 15th, where Cindy says they went for a swim, supposedly had a big blow-up, George doesn't come back until after 11pm, that the pool ladder had not been taken down?? Bear with me here, Cindy's mind was pre-occupied with lashing out at Casey, forgets about the ladder, George not home until late. Cindy leaves for work early on the 16th, George, I believe is starting a new job,.....nobody notices the ladder is down until late in the day on the 16th.

Now, Casey returns on the 16th, after George leaves, is very busy on the computer/phone, long periods of time, not worried about the pool, as she didn't put up the ladder, Caylee wonders off, climbs the ladder & drowns. Just a theory! And, I know, WHY didn't she call 911?

Would love to know anyone's thoughts on this.

 

[JWG]

:waitasec:

Looking at JWG's great research of computer/phone ativity that day, I have wondered the same thing.

To JWG, Is it possible that on the night of the 15th, where Cindy says they went for a swim, supposedly had a big blow-up, George doesn't come back until after 11pm, that the pool ladder had not been taken down?? Bear with me here, Cindy's mind was pre-occupied with lashing out at Casey, forgets about the ladder, George not home until late. Cindy leaves for work early on the 16th, George, I believe is starting a new job,.....nobody notices the ladder is down until late in the day on the 16th.

Now, Casey returns on the 16th, after George leaves, is very busy on the computer/phone, long periods of time, not worried about the pool, as she didn't put up the ladder, Caylee wonders off, climbs the ladder & drowns. Just a theory! And, I know, WHY didn't she call 911?

Would love to know anyone's thoughts on this.

I think there are a number of plausible explanations as to why the ladder would have been on the pool rather than stowed safely away, and this is another one.

 

[Indigo]

Too expand on the bathing suit theories....on 6/16 when Casey is shown on the Blockbuster video it looks as if she is wearing a men's athletic jersey, the kind with open sides...so to me it would seem as if she may be wearing a bathing suit underneath.....its not a clear video...but it could be tied into the theory of a pool accident.....

My apologies, BellaPhia. I mistakenly took your post to mean that you believed that Caylee's death was a pool accident. ITA that nobody knows for sure and theorizing is all we can do.

 

[JWG]

How does KC get Caylee out of the pool.....get all there things together.....plus KC's clothes would be wet.....so she would have to change....get her self together and head to Tony's and not skip a beat?

I just dont see how an hour would be enough time to do all of that....
but I have never had it happen to me either...... so who knows right....just thought I would throw that out there....

a loving mother wouldnt just scoop her baby up and throw her in the trunk and then head off to her boy friends house and act like nothing happend....she would call 911

just my thoughts.....

I think one can make too much of a lack of a 911 call. I had a rather serious accident with a hand-held power saw seven years ago (kicked back into my knee). Once I dragged myself into the house and got to the phone, I called my wife at work. I never thought of 911. Shock will do that.

I can imagine KC initially being in shock over finding her dead or apparently dead child in the pool. She may have tried to revive her herself. Why did she not seek help? Who knows exactly, but again I believe fear of Cindy played a large role. I don't think very much time elapsed before KC switched into "cover-my-a$$" mode.

Not saying it is normal or justifiable, just plausible. We cannot assume everyone is like us.

 

[tx_Dot]

Thank you. I'm searching the documents to find what neighbor it was. I recall hearing or reading that they witnessed KC storming out of the house, foul language, etc.

Ya know, I'm wondering if this little tidbit was *reported* by Mark F. (on Greta) or maybe even LP ??

*Vague arguments, that can't be dated, might not of been documented by LE.

 

[TakeNote]

Thank you. I'm searching the documents to find what neighbor it was. I recall hearing or reading that they witnessed KC storming out of the house, foul language, etc.

I did see this in one of the Doct dumps....I just read it yesterday....I cant remember the thread I was at.....that had a link...to the Doct that has like a review of questions, pics of drivers L....etc....if I find it again I will post

but the neighbor did say....that he had heard two fights in the past month....both times KC yelling profanity at CA....one time KC went for a jog afterwards and the other time CA left the house.....he said they both happend on the weekend.....

 

[Indigo]

LE has not confirmed this, but let's assume that duct tape was present. If it was originally wrapped around the head, it would come off during the process of decomposition. The ME stated in no uncertain terms that the body was completely skeletonized and no tissue remained. So rumors that duct tape was found wrapped tightly across the skull's mouth do not make sense.

The bag may have been wrapped in duct tape to keep it closed. Animals tore into the bag over time, but the tape would have been largely intact. It may be that when the "skull rolled out" of the bag it rolled onto a jangle of taped-bag. Another possibility is that Casey taped the mouth on the 19th of June when she noticed decompositional fluid leaking from the mouth. This would help account for tape near the skull. I think the tape on bag theory is more plausible.

Also consider KC's behavior towards her daughter in every single interview with friends and family. Not one ever mentions anything but a loving and doting mother - ever. They do not hold back on her lying and thieving. While it might make an interesting plot in a crime novel, I do not see KC suddenly doing something as inhumane and cruel as wrapping duct tape around the head of her live daughter.



I believe this is where KC's fear of Cindy comes into play. I am not saying it is a normal reaction, but if KC had a dead child on her hands due to negligence, she would have known that 911 was not going to save her but that she had even more to lose in terms of her mother's love and approval. The relationship was clearly unhealthy, and I think it provided the impetus for KC to step into her alternate reality. KC had already developed a well-hewn skill of lying with a straight face.



The child would likely not have vomited while drowning unless there was a resuscitation attempt, which would have not taken place in the water. Urine from a child that small in a pool would have been quite diluted.

As for the cadaver dogs, I am not sure they would hit on a "fresh" body - dead just a couple of minutes. But do remember that on the 18th Casey borrowed a shovel from the neighbor. I believe she intended to bury the body somewhere in the backyard, and she took the body back there while she attempted to dig a hole. The dogs hit on the location(s) she placed the body while trying to dig.

As for chloroform in the trunk. I posted on this elsewhere several days ago, but there are multiple sources. First, chloroform is formed when chlorinated water from swimming pools reacts with organic compounds, and decompositional fluid has organic compounds in it. The forensic report does not specify how much chloroform was measured, only that it was significant. Assume the amount formed due to drowning was not the sole source - where else would it come from?

Three other sources are possible. Some pesticides are manufactured using chloroform as a solvent. Did the parents use such a pesticide to kill the flies and maggots in the trunk? Dry cleaning fluid often contains chloroform. Did the parents use any in an attempt to clean the trunk liner? Fumigants often contain chloroform. Did the parents also use that in an attempt to kill the insects in the trunk?

I feel all of the above combined to create the source of the chloroform.



I also posted on the searches on another thread. I think KC looked up chloroform because she was not sure what it was, but had seen the infamous "Win her over with chloroform" picture on Ric's computer. Ric put the image on his myspace the day after KC did the first search. In fact, that image appeared on a number of unrelated myspace pages in March, 2008.

The second set of searches occurred on March 21:

21-Mar 14:16:30 Search how to make chloraform
14:16:30 Search how to make chloroform Google automatically suggested correct spelling
14:19:16 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:20:32 Search self defense
14:21:14 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:21:58 Search household weapons
14:22:01 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:23:08 Clicked a blog poll hosted by Google http://www.google.com/reviews/polls/...kclr=%235588aa
14:25:12 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
14:25:33 Search household weapons
14:25:54 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
14:26:18 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
14:26:24 Search neck breaking
14:28:18 Search shovel

Notice that one of the links is a women's self-defense book (visited twice) and the other is a zombie poll. All of this "research" was done in the span of 12 short minutes and we do not know what other non-Google websites were visited.

Rumor has it that Ricardo may have had a bit of a temper. So...KC finds the image on his myspace....researches chloroform...decides he might be capable of using it on her...researches self-defense...runs across suggestions of how some useful household items might be used in self-defense...such as a shovel...eventually "breaks up" with him in mid-April.

IMHO, the searches are unrelated to Caylee, but coincidentally helped the prosecution when no body was available.

As for the missing person's website visit, AFAIK there is not a single document in the various dumps that shows a search on or visit to such a site. This website visit was reported on Nancy Grace in September, but until I see the document detailing the search and placing it in context, no conclusion one way or the other can be made.

Thanks, JGW-- amazing work, as usual. I couldn't make out the Google book id number to save my life.

Forgive the OT: I love PF! My favorites: On the Turning Away, Wish You Were Here