Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[JWG]

I'm almost positive that the documents state that Cindy was proven to be at work when those things were looked up online. Leonard did say that he felt it was one of the Anthony's looking up those things in order to cash in on a life insurance policy. Just my opinion, but I don't think it was Cindy.

LE subpoenaed CA's work records and found she was at work, not at home, when the searches were done. Theoretically, it could have been GA, but then one would wonder why he would visit sites on women's self-defense or take a poll titled If a zombie invasion occurs, how sure are you that you can survive for at least 2 weeks? during those 12 minutes of searching.

 

[ks1]

I'm almost positive that the documents state that Cindy was proven to be at work when those things were looked up online. Leonard did say that he felt it was one of the Anthony's looking up those things in order to cash in on a life insurance policy. Just my opinion, but I don't think it was Cindy.

I didn't know Leonard had said that! When I get time, I am going to check KC's cell phone pings as related to the search times on the computer. If CA was at work, and Kc's pings show her in a different area, guess that would leave boy G to have done the searches. The self defense search at the same time as the other searches makes no sense, if KC was searching for ways to rid herself of Caylee. If I were JB, I would be all over that.

 

[Chess613]

He stated this VERY clearly in his interview with the FBI. This will come up for sure if the case ever goes to trial. He is adament and very clear about this fact.

Hi BellaPhia,

Just a thought here on the accident theory. I'm wondering how Casey could possibly have determined,without a question of a doubt, that Caylee was dead. Caylee could still have had active brainwaves. It's not unusual for drowning victims, especially children, to appear dead when they are not.

IMO, if Casey found Caylee unresponsive, she would have had no way of determining how long Caylee had been in that condition. If she wasn't watching Caylee, how could she know for sure how long Caylee had been under the water?

If the accident theory is to be believed, Casey does not hope beyond hope that Caylee can be brought back to life. Instead she takes very little time to deliberate and then stashes Caylee somewhere instead. A few short hours later Casey carries on with her life and doesn't miss a beat or a Friday out ever after.

This is a very good post. I agree, right along with JWG, that this was an accidental death - I've always felt that Caylee tried to climb the ladder by herself and fell, hitting her head. Considering what JWG had said posted earlier, tracking the internet usage and the abrupt stoppage of the computer at 3pm, it's possible Casey either caught Caylee on the stairs at that moment, or heard her hit her head and cry at that moment. Even then, she may not have known how serious it was, but three minutes later, she calls her father (the one she trusts the most), but he doesn't answer. So she tries to take care of things herself, in total denial of how serious this is. When it's clear Caylee is dead, she goes in cover up mode, something she's been doing her entire life. Everything else happens, which is more about her own self denial and her covering up the accident from her parents and friends.

Now, for those who refuse to believe accidental death because of the internet searches in March and her subsequent behavior after 6/16, try this on for size: the Father's Day argument was the apex of hostilities between Casey and Cindy, for Cindy never put her hands on Casey and Casey had never yelled like that to her mother before. So i think she's still simmering from the argument. But unlike Cindy, she chooses to withhold her anger until later - there's a lot of stuff building up inside her, but like most bullies, she would only unleash it on someone she can truly control. Like her daughter. I think, with the alone time she had with Caylee between 12:50pm and 3pm on 6/16, Casey tries to pick Caylee's mind as to who she loves more - her or Cindy. Either that or Caylee says something that sets Casey off momentarily. And Casey acts out what she really wanted to do to Cindy on Caylee. If she murdered Caylee, I think it was spontaneous and she never considered what would happen next. When Casey does act on something premeditated, like theft, I think it's well thought out. this wasn't. She's repeatedly backing up her car, she borrows a shovel from a next door neighbor, she's making admissions about the smelly car (almost a tip off by itself - why did Amy NEED to know that anyway?), the ill conceived abandonment of the car at the Amscot (if to abandon it, why leave the license plates on and her pocketbook? if to be stolen, why call Lazzaro to push the car there? Did she want Lazzaro to lie for her?); and the bizarre stream of consciousness of the Bella Vita tattoo, the erratic stealing, the "everybody lies, everybody dies" posting, and the partying? It all sums up to me like a girl who suddenly did a terrible deed, tried as best as she logically could to cover it up, and then finally said to hell with it, partied like hell, knowing it was going to end eventually. Her last option was to move to California and try to hook up with yet another guy, but she got caught before she could execute that plan.

And for those who STILL insist it was premeditated murder, answer this: if she planned it in March, why wait until June?

 

[LancelotLink]

Who is "he"?

Found it!
http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155401.pdf
Bottom page 4 and then page 5.

 

[Lanie]

I have to respectfully disagree on the loving, doting mother aspect. No one knows what goes on behind doors. I highly doubt Casey was a loving, devoted mother when she was alone with Caylee. Casey was very good at being a phony. I'm sure Amy thought she was a good friend until she realized she was robbing her blind. Casey pretended to be lots of things in front of her friends. Looking back at past cases, S. Smith appeared to be a loving, devoted mother yet she strapped her children in car seats and drown them in a lake. S. Peterson is another supposed loving husband and father to be. He killed his pregnant wife and dumped her in the bay without a second thought. My point is, Casey isn't going to abuse or neglect Caylee in front of people...that rarely happens.

The most compelling reason for Casey not being a loving devoted mother is Cindy wanted to get custody of Caylee. It's pretty clear on the 911 call that Cindy alluded to that fact when she was put on hold. I highly doubt Cindy would have entertained the thought of custody if she felt Casey was a good mother.

I hope you don't mind me hijacking your post...:blowkiss:
I just wanted to add, it is documented Casey lied to her friend ?Lauren for 8 to 9 months about having a job so Lauren would babysit INFANT Caylee. Casey lied to the Grunds for at least a short period of time about having a job so they would babysit Caylee. Casey lied to her parents about having a job so they would babysit Caylee.
A truly loving and devoted mother would want to spend time with her child, not be making up stories to whoever would fall for them to spend time with friends, partying, etc. Seems to me Casey wanted to spend as little time with Caylee as possible.
Lanie

 

[Rumpole]

And for those who STILL insist it was premeditated murder, answer this: if she planned it in March, why wait until June?

There are still a lot of alternatives between planning in detail since March and a simple accident June 16th.

For instance a fit of rage after the fight taken out on Caylee.

 

[eddeva]

Also consider KC's behavior towards her daughter in every single interview with friends and family. Not one ever mentions anything but a loving and doting mother - ever. They do not hold back on her lying and thieving. While it might make an interesting plot in a crime novel, I do not see KC suddenly doing something as inhumane and cruel as wrapping duct tape around the head of her live daughter.

JWG, if it turns out that caylees death were shown to be due to misadventure i would accept that. just b/c you're a sociopath doesn't mean you're automatically a serial killer, but i would always feel that casey saw it as a very fortunate turn of happenstance.
taking casey's behaviour, in it's entirety, into impartial consideration, do you feel her actions after caylee 'went missing' are more indicitive of a loving mother who doted upon her child and suffered the horrific tragedy of finding this child dead, wholly by accident--or a sociopath who killed her daughter and then embarked upon enjoying her new freedom with wanton abandon?
i just feel that option two is the more likely scenario.
please don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking you, rather i'm trying to understand why some people seem married to the accident theory when the mothers own words and actions point the other way.

i also apologize for any spelling mistakes or typos--i'm getting a migraine and can't see very well right now. (not the migraine--the painkillers!)

 

[reeseeva]

Muzikman had obtained a copy of the subpoenaed Photobucket CD back in September from the state's attorney office and noted some pictures that appear to have been taken from Fusian were uploaded around 10AM the morning of the 16th. See calendar link here.

Based on her cell activity in the wee hours of the morning, she got perhaps four hours of sleep.

Thanks for the page JWG Great timeline information

 

[Rumpole]

JWG, if it turns out that caylees death were shown to be due to misadventure i would accept that. just b/c you're a sociopath doesn't mean you're automatically a serial killer, but i would always feel that casey saw it as a very fortunate turn of happenstance.
taking casey's behaviour, in it's entirety, into impartial consideration, do you feel her actions after caylee 'went missing' are more indicitive of a loving mother who doted upon her child and suffered the horrific tragedy of finding this child dead, wholly by accident--or a sociopath who killed her daughter and then embarked upon enjoying her new freedom with wanton abandon?
i just feel that option two is the more likely scenario.
please don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking you, rather i'm trying to understand why some people seem married to the accident theory when the mothers own words and actions point the other way.

i also apologize for any spelling mistakes or typos--i'm getting a migraine and can't see very well right now. (not the migraine--the painkillers!)

I guess with the information we have either accident or violent act are possibilities. (The violent act could be planned to some extent, or it could be a spur of the moment thing.)Both fit the time line, but.....from what we have seen to indicate KC's personality I tend to favour some variation of violent act being more likely.

 

[JWG]

JWG, if it turns out that caylees death were shown to be due to misadventure i would accept that. just b/c you're a sociopath doesn't mean you're automatically a serial killer, but i would always feel that casey saw it as a very fortunate turn of happenstance.
taking casey's behaviour, in it's entirety, into impartial consideration, do you feel her actions after caylee 'went missing' are more indicitive of a loving mother who doted upon her child and suffered the horrific tragedy of finding this child dead, wholly by accident--or a sociopath who killed her daughter and then embarked upon enjoying her new freedom with wanton abandon?
i just feel that option two is the more likely scenario.
please don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking you, rather i'm trying to understand why some people seem married to the accident theory when the mothers own words and actions point the other way.

i also apologize for any spelling mistakes or typos--i'm getting a migraine and can't see very well right now. (not the migraine--the painkillers!)

No apology needed - I take nothing personally on this site. And I do hope the migraines pass soon!

The point I was making about being a loving and doting mother was that her friends never witnessed behavior to indicate otherwise. While she may have been good at hiding her "true feelings", you can bet that if there was even a slim indication that she had been abusive towards Caylee, one of her friends would have brought that up. They certainly brought up her lying, and she did try to hide that.

As a result, I have a hard time making the leap to psychopathic killer, if you will. IMHO, there is a huge difference between being a cruel, inhumane killer and a scared, immature, spoiled-brat narcissist trying to cover her a$$ over an accident. Certainly, she may never have felt grief when her daughter died, but that is a lot different than killing.

BTW, you will find in my posts that I always try - right or wrong - to find what I believe to be the simplest explanation for any given event or set of events. Right now accidental death is standing out as the simplest explanation, given the evidence uncovered and what I view to be plausible explanations for that evidence.

ETA: I should add that if Caylee's death is proven to be pre-meditated murder, I will easily accept that.

 

[Chess613]

one thing I was looking at for June 16th

Computer activity stops around 3:00pm

2:52 PM call from JG 673 seconds-in JG interview he at first said he thought he heard Caylee in the back ground....Heard KC yell *get down off the table*
If this is true Caylee could not have been in the pool3:04 PM call from GA 25 seconds

ok....lets say JG didnt hear Caylee in the back ground and she was in the pool...and KC discovers that Caylee has drowned in the pool at 3:00 pm

This gives KC 35mins before she makes a all to AL

3:35 PM calls AL 22 seconds

Then KC has another 35 mins until the flury of calls start and she heads back to AL

4:10 PM calls GA at work 34 seconds
4:11 PM calls CA twice
4:13 PM calls CA twice
4:14 PM calls GA 98 seconds

4:18 PM texts AL (now appears to be travelling away from Anthony home)


4:19 PM text from AL
4:19 PM calls AL
4:21 PM calls JG twice; second call 75 seconds
4:25 PM calls CA 3 seconds (now pinging near AL's apt)
6:31 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls home

How does KC get Caylee out of the pool.....get all there things together.....plus KC's clothes would be wet.....so she would have to change....get her self together and head to Tony's and not skip a beat?

I just dont see how an hour would be enough time to do all of that....
but I have never had it happen to me either...... so who knows right....just thought I would throw that out there....

a loving mother wouldnt just scoop her baby up and throw her in the trunk and then head off to her boy friends house and act like nothing happend....she would call 911

just my thoughts.....

Before I get into this quote, I'm noticing some folks are a bit upset when they are disputed. I think all of us are traumatized by what's happened to Caylee and all of us are searching for the truth. And we all are reacting differently with each bit of information we get - whether it's authentic or not. I work for a law office as a paralegal so I deal with stuff like this all the time (doesn't mean I'm a better authority than anyone else) - this only means I know how important it is to have a clear mind and not inject emotion into analyzing evidence - it's the number one reason defense attorneys get their clients off. The District Attorney is like a pitcher - if the evidence is clear and the witnesses testify to the truth, all the DA has to do is present the facts as clear as possible - i.e. pitch a no mistake perfect game. The only hope a defense attorney has are the mistakes of the DA and LE. With that said, here are the disputes I have with the above post:

- Jesse Grund didn't call Casey on 6/16 at 2:52pm. Casey calls grund at 4:21 and that convo last for 3 minutes. Grund DID talk to Casey where he thought he heard Caylee in background, but that was June 25. He later states he may not have heard Caylee but clearly heard Casey reprimand Caylee (source: discovery page 323). I will state that this is the same day Casey plants the "my car smells like a dead squirrel" story to Amy, one day after the gas can confrontation with George.

- your phone timeline is a bit off. Here's what i got from the discovery:
3:03pm - Casey calls George
4:10pm - Casey calls Mom's Work
4:11pm - Casey calls Mom's Cell
4:13pm - Casey calls Mom's Cell
4:14pm - Casey calls Mom's Work
4:18pm - per GPS, Casey is heading north on Goldenrod
4:19pm - Casey calls Lazzaro
4:21pm - Casey calls Grund, talks for 3 minutes. According to Grund, she talks about problems with family, and moving out. She doesn't appear too stressed out.
4:24pm - Casey calls Mom's Cell
4:25pm - per GPS, Casey is pinged northeast towards Lazzaro Home
4:55pm - per GPS, Casey is at Lazzaro home.

The other calls are fine. The main point is, we all will drive each other crazy if we're not solid on the facts. So if I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.

And I do agree that a loving mother would never just scoop a dead baby up, throw her in the trunk and head off to hang out with her man. But this is Casey Anthony we're talking about. Not necessarily a cold hearted killer. But a 22 year old who thinks like a teenager, who rather treated her daughter like a broken china dish and may have hoped that if she hid the pieces away, no one will blame her. A short term cover up, not realizing the long term effects. Just as a child would.

 

[Lanie]

And for those who STILL insist it was premeditated murder, answer this: if she planned it in March, why wait until June?

Okay, I'll bite. It's just as possible Casey started thinking about how much better her life would be (bella vita) without Caylee around. She could have been thinking about different ways to kill Caylee. (web searches for chloroform, neck breaking, household weapons.) It is also possible she was planning to kill her parents as well, not my theory, but I think it is possible. I think the 'idea' was growing in her head as time went on, and every time she couldn't go party with her friends because she couldn't get anyone to keep Caylee, the 'idea' got that much closer to a 'plan'. It appears from evidence released Jesse really loved Casey. Ricardo seems to have cared about her up to a point, Anthony R and TonE seemed to view her as more booty call than anything else. TonE actually seemed to get off getting Casey upset by threatening to move away, etc. After years of enabling to the point of absurdity, Cindy seemed to be getting fed up with Casey's antics. I can see this as pushing someone like Casey over the edge. If Casey thought Caylee loved Cindy more than her, and vice/versa, and it is a strong possibility she did, look at what she accomplishes by killing Caylee. She strikes back at all the people who don't love her as she thinks she deserves, she gets her mother real good by taking away the most important thing in her life, and she gets freedom from what she considered the burden holding her back. She allegedly told her brother she was a spiteful , and I think that is the one true thing that came out of her mouth.
Lanie

 

[natsound]

And for those who STILL insist it was premeditated murder, answer this: if she planned it in March, why wait until June?

Respectfully snipped...

Try this on for size: It wasn't Caylee she thought about murdering in March.

 

[MissJames]

I don't think that it was KC searching Chloroform. I think that it was CA. After reading the emails to her mother, I am even more convinced. She was in a very unhappy marriage, even spoke of suicide, along with the fact that she would have to pay him alimony. I think she wanted to off her significant other, and make it appear as if it was in self defense.

As I was reading this I thought you were going to say CA wanted to commit suicide.Her mother's e-mails indicated she was worried about that.

 

[MissJames]

Respectfully snipped...

Try this on for size: It wasn't Caylee she thought about murdering in March.

It would not surprise me one bit.

 

[JWG]

- Jesse Grund didn't call Casey on 6/16 at 2:52pm. Casey calls grund at 4:21 and that convo last for 3 minutes. Grund DID talk to Casey where he thought he heard Caylee in background, but that was June 25. He later states he may not have heard Caylee but clearly heard Casey reprimand Caylee (source: discovery page 323). I will state that this is the same day Casey plants the "my car smells like a dead squirrel" story to Amy, one day after the gas can confrontation with George.

Actually, Jesse does call her just before 2:53PM and speaks to her for just over 11 minutes. This is noted in both the ATT records and in the timeline narrative from the latest document dump (I just double-checked). Jesse does think he hears Caylee in the background during this call, but it is clearly not the same call that he later retracts hearing her. When that call ends GA calls KC and speaks to her for less than half a minute.

 

[eddeva]

No apology needed - I take nothing personally on this site. And I do hope the migraines pass soon!

thank you! that was very kind of you.

BTW, you will find in my posts that I always try - right or wrong - to find what I believe to be the simplest explanation for any given event or set of events. Right now accidental death is standing out as the simplest explanation, given the evidence uncovered and what I view to be plausible explanations for that evidence.

ETA: I should add that if Caylee's death is proven to be pre-meditated murder, I will easily accept that.

it's true--the simplest explanation is often the correct one. many thanks for your earnest explanation JWG. my mind and experiences i won't burden anyone with tell me that i know the thing i'm looking at when i see casey anthony but my heart hopes i'm wrong and would happily accept being proven so.

PS thanks for all your work on the timeline.

 

[coco puff]

thank you! that was very kind of you.




it's true--the simplest explanation is often the correct one. many thanks for your earnest explanation JWG. my mind and experiences i won't burden anyone with tell me that i know the thing i'm looking at when i see casey anthony but my heart hopes i'm wrong and would happily accept being proven so.

PS thanks for all your work on the timeline.

I know what I see when I look into KC's eyes. A faker. She is like my mother was, tricking the world into believing she was a great mom. Only I knew the truth.

 

[debs]

Caylee's manner of death is homicide, though the cause is undetermined. This means it could have been accidental, but does not rule out murder.

We will go round and round on this and come to this final analysis until we hear all the facts not yet released. There is simply not enough to prove one or the other without adding in our personal opinions, and that is not evidence, my friends. What we THINK doesn't matter in this instance.

 

[JWG]

What we THINK doesn't matter in this instance.

Correct - it will not affect the outcome. But the discourse forces us to think objectively and to learn from each other. I look forward to the thoughtful posts that disagree with my perspective because they force me to re-examine my reasoning. There is value in that for all of us.

Plus, all of us want to see the same result - justice for Caylee. There is comfort in such company.