Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[skygirl]

After I posted the above post this morning before running errands and appointments, I of course, had this case,(and thread) in the back of my mind.

I remember somone posted a really good post about how a majority of women who kill their children, tend to leave them in a womb like state. Usually with their blankey, and "wrapped up". I wish I could remember where this was actually discussed (thread title)?

After looking at the photo again(post #4 pic3), the Pooh blanket looks really worn. Like it had been used a great deal, and probably washed often.

We here at WS typically know so much about this case, the logistics, the psychology, the general detective sleuthing that has been done by LE. It has been and is to me, an awesome priviledge to be here and share ideas and information. But to just yer average Joe, who has not been follwoing the case as close as we have been, IMO, will be totally blown away by JUST THE FACTS!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68989"]Images Only NO DISCUSSION! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

:thumb:

 

[MAMABEAR]

Do we know they were naughty or just bad? Maybe the bad, dam*ing pics are the ones of the skull, the child with the noose, etc. Maybe that is what they meant by bad. Ya think maybe?

No--there was some very naughty pics. I member when JB was talking to the Judge. The Judge commented on it. JB had a motion to seal them, but we never heard if the Judge sealed them or not. Does anybody else member that?

 

[debbie0604]

I appreciate what you are trying to say, however, consider simple human anatomy. Look at the following diagram of a human skull and note where the mandible attaches:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/8915.jpg

Then consider whether a few small overlapping pieces of duct tape would have been enough to keep those two pieces of bone -- which have no articulating pieces -- together. The flesh had long since decayed. No ligaments or tissues of any sort to provide any support. And in spite of that, both of those pieces of bone were located together, in approximate anatomical position, after all the animal activity, after the decomp and nature took it's toll. The only reasonable conclusion is that the tape was placed close enough to the articlulation point of the mandible and the skull, forcefully enough to withstand ALL the elements mentioned previously. The tape went at least beyond her ears, IMO, or else the mandible would have dropped off or been carried off by animals. Think about it logically. These two pieces of bone had NO REASON to be together, yet they were fastened together in such a manner that they remained together, despite the elements. The tape did NOT have to be completely wrapped around her skull to accomplish this, however, if you look at the diagram of the skull you can reasonably see that they were not small pieces of tape...

You're right! Not small pieces of tape AND MULTIPLE PIECES AND LAYERS.

So sad... I hate thinking about it.

 

[debbie0604]

Respectfully, all dogs shed/lose hair. As do humans. Although Yorkies can be said to be among the lightest shedders (I'm sure this is not a real term! :crazy, there's bound to be a stray hair or two around. And wouldn't it be great if one was stuck to that horrible duct tape? Boy, I'd love to read about that...

Yep, you're right about the dogs shedding. I had a yorkie and sometimes I had to brush him,and the brush eventually would be full of hair. I now have two Shih Tzu's. They can shed too. Like humans, they leave hair. I'm wondering what's in those vacuum's. Something from the animals could match in the trash bag with the remains.

 

[debbie0604]

Hi everyone, I usually just lurk, but I"ve been wondering about the paper towel. Could there be priints on it? I used to classify prints for NYSDCJS, and i've seen alot of things done so No prints possible...... and one other thing on the AR Caylee's soft spot had not closed???? Not good at the medical , any ideas?

The "soft spot" is known clinically as anterior fontanels. I didn't see this mentioned in the autopsy report. Sadly, the remains were completely skeletonized.

I'm not sure about fingerprints on the paper towel. That information has not been released to my knowledge.

 

[debbie0604]

i know there was some hair with the matting....but wasnt there hair still attached to the skull? and i heard from one of the dr. talking heads a while back stating the the hair could still be attached to the skull even after decomp and nothing but bones were left.....and also the ME said something about cutting out pony tails...and i though she meant two of them....did i read that wrong?

The AR states "On 12-18 strands of hair measuring approximately 6 inches in length which were tied at the proximal end were removed for toxicologic testing." Then as you read further on it states "Some strands of hair could be teased from the mat and were at least 6 to 7 inches in length." It sounds like there were two "pony tails" but there was actually only one. The ME actually cut out a few hairs and tied them together (so they wouldn't become separated) to send to the Toxicology Lab.

 

[chckmate22]

IMO I am sure this has been said over and over again but it is true.....look at what isnt there instead of what is....There is so much that isnt there that does exist. I work in LE and no matter what including the Sunshine law...there are always ways around that....

 

[jon_burrows]

As far as I'm concerned the smoking guns are just these:

31 days
Refusal to report
Custody of child
Custody of car
Decomposition in car
Lying and obfuscation of investigation
Site of disposal

ITA agree with your list. I think there are a few more smoking guns:

-Casey's demeanor for 31 days (partying, tattoo, carefree, lying about Caylee's whereabouts, etc)
-Matching brand name laundry bag found at the house. There are so many on the market. What are the chances the murderer used the same brand?

The totality of all the evidence is the 'smoking gun'. IMO

 

[FORDANIEL]

Have been lurking and working since the autopsy report came out,and have a few thoughts on all of this.First I hope KC was smart enough to put Caylee unconscious prior to the application of the duct tape,but I somehow think this was done in a rage and I am still haunted by that picture taken of Caylee in the red jersey,wish I knew when this was taken.I keep thinking this may have been sent to CA ,by KC,as a last pic to torment.I am not sure there are other smoking guns for the prosecution,I think they have enough,however,the defense has always maintained that they have a smoking gun ie "when this comes to trial you will all say now I understand",Our client is innocent,and blah blah blah. Why if your client is innocent,and you know this for sure,or you have light bulb proof of why this happened,why wouldn't you speak up,is there great money or something in all of this to not speak up?There must be some reason that all of these BIG guns are involved in this case,I could see it for Caylee,but not KC.Having read all of the reports,I can see why the death penalty was placed back on the table,if for NO other reason that a qualified attorney HAD to be placed on the case.One other thing,last night I was at my daughter's and she was placing blankets and comforters and pillows,etc in a "space bag" She used a vacuum cleaner to remove the air from the contents.What started out as a very large bag,was reduced to a flat object with no air in it.Where did this get purchased?-At Target-right next to the laundry bags--just a thought-made me ill. I think I might have to expose one of these bags to our Az heat sunshine,water etc.I do believe that one of these bags could dissolve over time,when exposed to the elements and explode with gases present.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Do we know they were naughty or just bad? Maybe the bad, dam*ing pics are the ones of the skull, the child with the noose, etc. Maybe that is what they meant by bad. Ya think maybe?

I've wondered about those pics, too. In George's interview with LE, it is mentioned there are many of them (over 1000?). I've always thought that they are so bad that the media would have a hard time posting them on a public site.

As to the list of evidence posted above, I'd like to add this. The paper towel with decomp was in the trash bag from Tony's apt. Aside from Casey, who could have placed the bag in the trunk? Who would have wiped up the decomp with the paper towel? You all get ONE guess!

This evidence backs up all the air tests from the body farm that there was a body in the car and makes Casey the one who put it there.

 

[magic-cat]

I've wondered about those pics, too. In George's interview with LE, it is mentioned there are many of them (over 1000?). I've always thought that they are so bad that the media would have a hard time posting them on a public site.

They were/are bad enough for Jose to kick up his heels and do all that he could do to keep them from being released. I do not recall ever seeing the final order on that one-does anyone recall how that ended or if it even HAS ended yet? I know we have not seen the pics, but is that because they ARE so bad that they cannot be posted on a public "news" site online or in print? Would they classify as "*advertiser censored*" or what and whatever DID happen with that-It either slips my mind or I completely missed it.:waitasec:

 

[Mystic]

I've wondered about those pics, too. In George's interview with LE, it is mentioned there are many of them (over 1000?). I've always thought that they are so bad that the media would have a hard time posting them on a public site.

As to the list of evidence posted above, I'd like to add this. The paper towel with decomp was in the trash bag from Tony's apt. Aside from Casey, who could have placed the bag in the trunk? Who would have wiped up the decomp with the paper towel? You all get ONE guess!

This evidence backs up all the air tests from the body farm that there was a body in the car and makes Casey the one who put it there.

hmmm 1 guess eh! well it definately was not the nanny
definately a smoking gun imo

 

[MAMABEAR]

They were/are bad enough for Jose to kick up his heels and do all that he could do to keep them from being released. I do not recall ever seeing the final order on that one-does anyone recall how that ended or if it even HAS ended yet? I know we have not seen the pics, but is that because they ARE so bad that they cannot be posted on a public "news" site online or in print? Would they classify as "*advertiser censored*" or what and whatever DID happen with that-It either slips my mind or I completely missed it.:waitasec:

I member the State handed them over to JB and JB "motioned" it. LOL

We were possed to get them. Maybe they are so bad that the media couldn't put thm up on their web sites. But one would think they could hit the web---somewhere. Maybe JB has them up for sell.

 

[AZlawyer]

I member the State handed them over to JB and JB "motioned" it. LOL

We were possed to get them. Maybe they are so bad that the media couldn't put thm up on their web sites. But one would think they could hit the web---somewhere. Maybe JB has them up for sell.

I think the issue was resolved, the pictures were released, and they turned out to be all the pictures we had seen already. Not *advertiser censored*, not "bad" really, just embarrassing if you have any dignity to be taken away--which KC does not.

 

[sariebell]

What if the duct tape was used to get "the kid" out of the house without making too much noise? Duct tape over mouth is common in kidnap situations, so maybe the fight happened, KC feigned going to bed with Caylee, then when everyone was asleep she was taking their little precious prize outta there without them even knowing it! She taped her mouth so she couldn't scream and cry and they got the hell outta dodge. In doing so, she killed her, but didn't really care... not an accident, but not really planned. KC flew by the seat of her pants and was not much of a planner. Once they were out of the A's vicinity, she realized what she had done and started loosely concocting her kidnapping story. I really think the tape was for noise reduction... either symbolically due to the fact that Caylee had been airing stuff that KC didn't want known, or more literally to get her out of the house without another big fight.

 

[minazoe]

What if the duct tape was used to get "the kid" out of the house without making too much noise? Duct tape over mouth is common in kidnap situations, so maybe the fight happened, KC feigned going to bed with Caylee, then when everyone was asleep she was taking their little precious prize outta there without them even knowing it! She taped her mouth so she couldn't scream and cry and they got the hell outta dodge. In doing so, she killed her, but didn't really care... not an accident, but not really planned. KC flew by the seat of her pants and was not much of a planner. Once they were out of the A's vicinity, she realized what she had done and started loosely concocting her kidnapping story. I really think the tape was for noise reduction... either symbolically due to the fact that Caylee had been airing stuff that KC didn't want known, or more literally to get her out of the house without another big fight.

that is a really good theroy....but...if true Casey could have admitted to this long ago. ...I can even imagine the "not caring " part, like a fortunate accident. Saying this however I also think she could have admitted to this and gotten buy with a manslaughter plea. All the lying points to something darker.

I mean wouldn't you just say , look ....I took her out of the house when she was asleep, I didn't know what to do or where we would go. I taped her mouth so she wouldnt wake up everyone. We drove around. I went to take off the tape and she wasn't breathing.


easy breezy.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I don't see this as a "smoking gun theory", but was directed here from the old theories thread...so, it's here I will post.

I have been thinking about Casey's call to Jesse on June 16th. It seems out of place to me, not a part of her set pattern's, like the phone calls to her mother around quitting time. Here's my thinking on this...

Cindy had been pressing Casey harder and harder before June 16th, in an attempt to make Casey take on more responsibility for Caylee. Cindy knew Casey wasn't working..ABC party pics. This attempt to get Casey to be more responsible had been going on for a while, but increased in intensity during the May, early June period.

I think Cindy told Casey that she wasn't going to watch Caylee on the 16th (or possibly this conversation happened late on the 15th), anyway Cindy was putting her foot down. Casey leaves the A home on the afternoon of the 16th with Caylee still alive, but not knowing if she was going to be able to find a babysitter for the night. Thus Casey's calls to Cindy, she was trying to find child care. Then she calls TL at 4:19 after several calls to Cindy in which she was unsuccessful in arranging child care. After calling TL she calls Jesse...why ? I believe she was checking him out to see what he was doing that night, thinking if he was free she might ask him to watch Caylee (she's desperate at this point). She hasn't asked Jesse to watch Caylee in a long time, but she's looking for an answer to her "problem". Jesse during the call mentions he's working that night or whatever plans he had and Casey doesn't ever ask him to watch Caylee. She calls Cindy's cell one more time after the call to Jesse at 4:24 pm. Casey knows her mother doesn't usually pick up on her cell phone during work hours so she called the cell to leave a message. Her intent was not to talk to her mom, but to leave a message that she would be with Caylee at Zani's all night, not to worry (in other words don't bother me anymore tonight). I believe the murder happens shortly around the time of the last call to Cindy's cell...around 4:30. Don't know where she managed to murder Caylee at, maybe she pulled over to a place where noone could see her. I have to believe Casey brought the duct tape with her when she left the house...why ? Because she knew she might not have a babysitter for that night with TL. I believe she already knew, when she left the home, that her mom was getting tired of it and had said no, I will not watch Caylee. I think Casey's back up plan when she left the home on the 16th was to get rid of Caylee if she couldn't find a babysitter. Now this isn't even logical to most people, if you don't have a sitter you don't go out, but this is Casey and I believe she had "processed" these thoughts before (thoughts of killing Caylee).

These are just some thoughts I have been running over in my head, feel free to poke holes as needed...

Casey's cellphone calls on the afternoon of June 16th, 2008

3:03pm - George Anthony's Cell (67 min to the next call) *Casey's father
4:10pm - Cindy Anthony's Work (1 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother
4:11pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (2 minutes to the next call) *
4:13pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (1 minutes to the next call) *
4:14pm - Cindy Anthony's Work (5 minutes to the next call) *
4:19pm - Anthony Lazzaro (2 minutes to the next call) *Casey's Boyfriend
4:21pm - Jesse Grund (3 minutes to the next call) *Casey's ex-Boyfriend
4:24pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (8 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother
6:32pm - The Anthony Home (1 minute to the next call) *Casey's mother and father's house
6:33pm - Voicemail (33 minutes to the next call) *
7:06pm - The Anthony Home (14 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother and father's house
7:20pm - Amy Huizenga (? anymore calls after that) *Casey's close friend at the time

 

[sariebell]

that is a really good theroy....but...if true Casey could have admitted to this long ago. ...I can even imagine the "not caring " part, like a fortunate accident. Saying this however I also think she could have admitted to this and gotten buy with a manslaughter plea. All the lying points to something darker.

I mean wouldn't you just say , look ....I took her out of the house when she was asleep, I didn't know what to do or where we would go. I taped her mouth so she wouldnt wake up everyone. We drove around. I went to take off the tape and she wasn't breathing.


easy breezy.

I do believe that it would be much easier to admit an accident, but I don't think KC has that in her nature. I also think she is a sociopath, just not an organized killer. She never anticipated all of this when she did it and just kept flying by the seat of her pants.

 

[sariebell]

I don't see this as a "smoking gun theory", but was directed here from the old theories thread...so, it's here I will post.

I have been thinking about Casey's call to Jesse on June 16th. It seems out of place to me, not a part of her set pattern's, like the phone calls to her mother around quitting time. Here's my thinking on this...

Cindy had been pressing Casey harder and harder before June 16th, in an attempt to make Casey take on more responsibility for Caylee. Cindy knew Casey wasn't working..ABC party pics. This attempt to get Casey to be more responsible had been going on for a while, but increased in intensity during the May, early June period.

I think Cindy told Casey that she wasn't going to watch Caylee on the 16th (or possibly this conversation happened late on the 15th), anyway Cindy was putting her foot down. Casey leaves the A home on the afternoon of the 16th with Caylee still alive, but not knowing if she was going to be able to find a babysitter for the night. Thus Casey's calls to Cindy, she was trying to find child care. Then she calls TL at 4:19 after several calls to Cindy in which she was unsuccessful in arranging child care. After calling TL she calls Jesse...why ? I believe she was checking him out to see what he was doing that night, thinking if he was free she might ask him to watch Caylee (she's desperate at this point). She hasn't asked Jesse to watch Caylee in a long time, but she's looking for an answer to her "problem". Jesse during the call mentions he's working that night or whatever plans he had and Casey doesn't ever ask him to watch Caylee. She calls Cindy's cell one more time after the call to Jesse at 4:24 pm. Casey knows her mother doesn't usually pick up on her cell phone during work hours so she called the cell to leave a message. Her intent was not to talk to her mom, but to leave a message that she would be with Caylee at Zani's all night, not to worry (in other words don't bother me anymore tonight). I believe the murder happens shortly around the time of the last call to Cindy's cell...around 4:30. Don't know where she managed to murder Caylee at, maybe she pulled over to a place where noone could see her. I have to believe Casey brought the duct tape with her when she left the house...why ? Because she knew she might not have a babysitter for that night with TL. I believe she already knew, when she left the home, that her mom was getting tired of it and had said no, I will not watch Caylee. I think Casey's back up plan when she left the home on the 16th was to get rid of Caylee if she couldn't find a babysitter.

These are just some thoughts I have been running over in my head, feel free to poke holes as needed...

Casey's cellphone calls on the afternoon of June 16th, 2008

3:03pm - George Anthony's Cell (67 min to the next call) *Casey's father
4:10pm - Cindy Anthony's Work (1 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother
4:11pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (2 minutes to the next call) *
4:13pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (1 minutes to the next call) *
4:14pm - Cindy Anthony's Work (5 minutes to the next call) *
4:19pm - Anthony Lazzaro (2 minutes to the next call) *Casey's Boyfriend
4:21pm - Jesse Grund (3 minutes to the next call) *Casey's ex-Boyfriend
4:24pm - Cindy Anthony's Cell (8 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother
6:32pm - The Anthony Home (1 minute to the next call) *Casey's mother and father's house
6:33pm - Voicemail (33 minutes to the next call) *
7:06pm - The Anthony Home (14 minutes to the next call) *Casey's mother and father's house
7:20pm - Amy Huizenga (? anymore calls after that) *Casey's close friend at the time

I agree that the call to JG is odd considering her other call patterns. I have always felt that Caylee was gone on the 15th. Maybe not dead yet, but gone from the house, because I find GA and CA's stories too fishy for handling. I think you have a plausible theory that she was anxious to hand off Caylee to JG or anyone so she could continue on with her TonE plans. That would rest on the belief that Caylee was still alive on the afternoon of the 16th.

 

[sariebell]

Sorry, I keep going from theory to Smoking Gun threads and probably getting OT. I do think the duct tape and the manner in which it was placed on the head are the only smoking gun that I can see. I do hope, however, that there is a home run of a smoker somewhere waiting to come out!