Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

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Yes, this is what I'm getting at, I know he'll appeal and maybe even get bail until then but surely there HAS to be some sort of time behind bars before he applies for the bail process let alone the appeal process..if only for a few weeks! If convicted as a murderer there has to least be that.....??

9/11 couldn't come any quicker!!
 
It is outrageous that convicted murderers are allowed out on bail simply because they have chosen to appeal the sentence. I am fairly sure that does not happen in the UK.

Also, I think he has broken his bail conditions, but as with so many of his 'transgressions' everyone just seems to turn a blind eye. He was only supposed to be allowed to go abroad for work reasons - that is to attend athletics competitions etc. Since when does a holiday in Mozambique where he finds himself yet another teenage girlfriend fall into that category?

I totally agree but at the moment it can be seen he has been treated more than fairly. IMO, he has been given preferential treatment from day 1. I hope what I have read about the likelihood of bail is completely wrong. Not long now before we find out.
 
Yes, this is what I'm getting at, I know he'll appeal and maybe even get bail until then but surely there HAS to be some sort of time behind bars before he applies for the bail process let alone the appeal process..if only for a few weeks! If convicted as a murderer there has to least be that.....??


9/11 couldn't come any quicker!!

I am sure most of us hope so but I think bail can be continued rather than a new bail application needing to be made. My hope is that harsher bail conditions will be reimposed because at the moment he doesn't seem to have many, if any, of his original bail conditions remaining but I would be more than happy to be completely wrong.
 
I totally agree but at the moment it can be seen he has been treated more than fairly. IMO, he has been given preferential treatment from day 1. I hope what I have read about the likelihood of bail is completely wrong. Not long now before we find out.

I agree, this is what angers me, I just hope he receives a sentence which he must serve, anything less is just criminal, imo. He murdered a young woman and gave a half baked story to cover his crime, no one would get away with it anywhere else, nor should he. JMHO
 
In my layman's view it seems to me that if he's convicted of murder his bail ought to be revoked because, with the conviction, won't the court be saying we believe your bail application (like your testimony) was a lie?

Agree. If the court finds OP Guilty, where is the justice of allowing him to remain free on bail. Guilty implies serving a consequence for committing murder.
 
hmm..looks like it's up to Masipa:

"When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_procedure_in_South_Africa#Bail_pending_appeal
 
hmm..looks like it's up to Masipa:

"When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_procedure_in_South_Africa#Bail_pending_appeal

Excellent thank you for finding that. I have read that if Masipa is happy with her judgement she is more likely to allow an appeal as she will feel sure her judgement will be upheld.
 
Excellent thank you for finding that. I have read that if Masipa is happy with her judgement she is more likely to allow an appeal as she will feel sure her judgement will be upheld.

She'll probably allow an appeal but looks like it's up to her on whether or not OP can continue bail until that process starts (or finishes?). Which makes sense. I mean pre-trial an accused may not be seen as dangerous as they are post-trial and conviction.
 
"... It is of course always difficult to predict the outcome of a criminal trial, but in this case, it seems likely that Pistorius will be convicted of premeditated murder."
- Matthew Galluzzo, US criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor with South African National Prosecuting Authority

Pistorius Case Analyzed by a Defense Attorney
http://newyorkcriminaldefenseblawg.com/tag/oscar-pistorius/
 
Lois Pistorius ?@loispistorius 31 May 2013
@mailandguardian I prefer to call it an "accident scene"



DENY. DENY. DENY. She can keep telling herself that every time she visits Oscar in prison.

Would she call it an “accident scene” if it had been Oscar, dead in the toilet?

In a weird sort of way, I feel sorry for the family - no one wants to admit one of their own is a monster.

I guess the DENIAL keeps the terrible anxiety and brutal truth from completely destroying them.

It’s the only way they can live with themselves, the public and ... with Oscar.
 

Arnold Pistorius:
As you can just imagine, I can even not imagine myself being the tool that, that… that…that took my loved one away,


Oh he's a tool alright Arnold........................................:clap:
 
From your link~

“We all knew he had a different side to him but it was rarely placed on public view.
He played the media beautifully while he was running.
He even hired a public relations girl from London when he ran at the 2012 Games.
But we all knew behind closed doors how volatile he could be. Ask Arnu Fourie.”


Short piece in an Australian Newspaper confirming what most of us think.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...995243624?nk=d20c60fea59ded1552d0f7417e001eb9

“Many South African teammates have little sympathy for they remember him as a hot-headed antagonist whose temperamental ways were well hidden beneath the purified public image.”
 
What do dolus directus and dolus eventualis mean when applied to OP’s case?

I see misinformation and misconception has spread on this, so I thought it may be helpful to set the record straight in my rough, layman's language before judgement and sentencing proceedings.

  • They are both types of intent, intent being a necessary component for murder. In SA law, they are both assessed subjectively - i.e. what was in the accused’s mind - not what he should have thought, but what he did actually think.

  • Dolus directus - the accused wanted to unlawfully kill a human being behind the door

  • Dolus eventualis - the accused did not want to, but foresaw the possibility that he would, unlawfully kill a human being behind the door
The identity of the human being behind the door is not directly relevant.* If he thought it was an intruder, or if he thought it was Reeva, and whoever it may have turned out to be, all forms of intent, and even pre-meditation are possible. (I have seen it repeated a few times from various sources that dolus directus means he knew it was Reeva, and dolus eventualis means he thought it was an intruder - this isn't the case).

  • Imagine he knew it was Reeva. If he wanted to kill her then it is dolus directus. If he wanted to seriously injure her, but foresaw that he may end up killing her, then it is dolus eventualis.

  • Imagine he thought it was an intruder and he did not believe he was under attack. If he wanted to kill the intruder, e.g. because he thought intruders deserve it, then it is dolus directus. If he wanted to incapacitate the intruder, e.g. so he couldn't escape before the police arrived, but foresaw that he may kill him, then it is dolus eventualis. The fact it turned out to be Reeva does not change it being murder directus or murder eventualis.

  • Imagine he thought it was an intruder and that he thought the door was opening to launch a deadly attack - a case of putative self defence. If he wanted to kill him then it is not murder because the intention was to lawfully kill, not unlawfully kill. If he wanted to incapacitate him or ward him off, but foresaw that he may kill him, then this too is not murder as the foreseen possibility was of a lawful killing not an unlawful killing. If however, he foresaw the possibility that the door was not opening to launch an attack or he foresaw the possibility that it may be Reeva, then that means he foresaw the possibility he would be killing the human being behind the door unlawfully rather than lawfully, and then that would be murder eventualis. In other words, putative self defence works as a complete defence against murder by virtue of excluding intent to kill unlawfully, and this means excluding any foresight that you may not be under actual attack or that it may be someone innocent.
*The defence do argue against this, but every legal expert I have seen commenting on the trial in SA has flatly rejected this and common sense rejects it too.
 
I fed 'bail pending appeal south africa' into Google.

Amazingly, the first case that came up was this: http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2013/sca2013-001.pdf

It is the case that Nel referred to when cross-examining Wolmarans, on the topic of Wolmarans vs Mangena. Looks like Wolmaran's long-winded response that the judgement didn't amount to an adverse credibility finding against him has no substance.

  • "The real dispute concerned whether it was possible for the right-handed deceased, in view of the nature and track of the fatal wound, to shoot himself on the left neck as the appellant and her ballistics expert, Mr Wolmarans, claimed, a possibility that was dismissed as impossible by Dr Nkondo and the state’s ballistics expert, Mr Mangena."
  • "As indicated, the state’s expert witnesses discounted any possibility that the fatal wound was self-inflicted because of its position and track. Mr Wolmarans, on the other hand, whilst not disagreeing with his state counterpart on the wound’s nature and track, testified that it could have been self-inflicted and physically demonstrated how this could have occurred."
  • "The court made strong adverse credibility findings against the defence witnesses, alternately describing the version of the appellant, whom it found an unimpressive witness, as ‘vague’, ‘inexplicable’ and ‘bizarre’. The court found Mr Wolmarans’ hypothesis and demonstration speculative and unconvincing, especially in light of the appellant’s inability to explain the firearm’s position when the fatal shot was fired. The court concluded that ‘for a right handed person to inflict that wound would have required some ability in contortionism. The exit wound would not have been where it was’.

With regards to bail pending appeal, looks like it is a real possibility, and will boil down to the prospects of success of appeal, and where the judge draws the threshold in this regard (some seem to need strong prospects of success, others seem to need just reasonable possibility).
 
FASCINATING.

Lois Pistorius ?@loispistorius Sep 22
South Africans live in fear - http://n24.cm/19pYF8w

https://twitter.com/loispistorius/status/381768280069120000

A survey commissioned by a local pharmaceutical company has found that South Africans live in perpetual fear of falling victim to crime.

According to the Sunday Independent, Pharma Dynamics - which specialises in treating depression - found that 94% of people who took part in the survey were "extremely afraid" and that perceptions of insecurity were really high.

Pharma Dynamics spokesperson Mariska Fouche said the survey was indicative of how much crime, especially violent crime, can contribute to a mass fear of insecurity.

According to Fouche, the survey was conducted on Wednesday last week and 1 000 adults were interviewed from around the country.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/South-Africans-live-in-fear-20130922

SOURCE:
South Africans Live in Perpetual Fear
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/south-africans-live-in-perpetual-fear-1.1581044


Funny, the media articles don’t link to this alleged survey and nowhere on Pharma Dynamics website is there any such survey (or any surveys at all). LOL
http://www.pharmadynamics.co.za/

The alleged survey was done Sept. 18, 2013 and good old on-the-ball Auntie Lois tweeted same on Sept. 22 - the very same day of the IOL article.

Mmm... is it possible the $LOADED Pistorius family commissioned this small “survey” themselves?!!! Remember, the Pistorius family has financial interests in 90+ corporations/industries (including pharma and media?).

I would not put anything past this family. NOTHING.

On the bright side for Pharma Dynamics (now owned by Walgreens), sales of anti-depressants must be WAAAAAAAAAAAAY up in SA.

Just like sex, fear sells.

In fact, with Auntie, “expert” Derman, et al's help, Oscar is desperately hoping his “fear” defense (+ all his other defenses) will keep him out of prison.

Btw, how many of these “extremely afraid” and “insecure” people (survey participants) have committed murder?

p.s. Who were these 1000 people surveyed - customers? Where is this survey? I’m still searching. :lol:
 
What do dolus directus and dolus eventualis mean when applied to OP’s case?

I see misinformation and misconception has spread on this, so I thought it may be helpful to set the record straight in my rough, layman's language before judgement and sentencing proceedings.

  • They are both types of intent, intent being a necessary component for murder. In SA law, they are both assessed subjectively - i.e. what was in the accused’s mind - not what he should have thought, but what he did actually think.

  • Dolus directus - the accused wanted to unlawfully kill a human being behind the door

  • Dolus eventualis - the accused did not want to, but foresaw the possibility that he would, unlawfully kill a human being behind the door
The identity of the human being behind the door is not directly relevant.* If he thought it was an intruder, or if he thought it was Reeva, and whoever it may have turned out to be, all forms of intent, and even pre-meditation are possible. (I have seen it repeated a few times from various sources that dolus directus means he knew it was Reeva, and dolus eventualis means he thought it was an intruder - this isn't the case).

  • Imagine he knew it was Reeva. If he wanted to kill her then it is dolus directus. If he wanted to seriously injure her, but foresaw that he may end up killing her, then it is dolus eventualis.

  • Imagine he thought it was an intruder and he did not believe he was under attack. If he wanted to kill the intruder, e.g. because he thought intruders deserve it, then it is dolus directus. If he wanted to incapacitate the intruder, e.g. so he couldn't escape before the police arrived, but foresaw that he may kill him, then it is dolus eventualis. The fact it turned out to be Reeva does not change it being murder directus or murder eventualis.

  • Imagine he thought it was an intruder and that he thought the door was opening to launch a deadly attack - a case of putative self defence. If he wanted to kill him then it is not murder because the intention was to lawfully kill, not unlawfully kill. If he wanted to incapacitate him or ward him off, but foresaw that he may kill him, then it also is not murder for the same reason. If however, he foresaw the possibility that it may be Reeva, then that means he foresaw the possibility he would be killing the human being behind the door unlawfully, and then that would be murder eventualis. In other words, putative self defence works as a complete defence against murder by virtue of excluding intent to kill unlawfully, and this means excluding any foresight that you may not be under actual attack or that it may be someone innocent.
*The defence do argue against this, but every legal expert I have seen commenting on the trial in SA has flatly rejected this and common sense rejects it too.

Excellent post Pandax !!!

Just a comment on BIB as per how can one's intent to kill unlawfully be subtracted and therefore escape a murder conviction :

Private Defence (PD)

1. The Judge must find that the accused was in a situation where his life was objectively being imminently threatened and that a reasonable person in the same situation would also come to the same conclusion.

2. The Judge must find that the accused had objectively no other reasonable means of avoiding, escaping or extracting himself from said life threatening situation.

3. The Judge must find that the accused self-defense response to said threat was objectively reasonable.

Putative Private Defence (PPD)

1. The Judge must find the accused was in a situation where he perceived his life was subjectively being imminently threatened and that a reasonable person in the same situation would also have perceived an imminent life threatening situation.

2. The Judge must find that the accused had objectively no other reasonable means of avoiding, escaping or extracting himself from said life threatening situation.

3. The Judge must find that the accused self-defense response to said threat was objectively reasonable.

… therefore, applied to OP's case… to succeed in a PPD Defence :

A. OP must convince Masipa he his a credible witness whose version should be believed.

B. OP must convince Masipa the State's evidence which may contradict his PPD version is not credible and/or not reliable.

C. OP must convince Masipa the 3 startles constitute a subjectively reasonable causation to his perception of being in an imminent life-threatening situation and that a reasonable person, in those same circumstances, would have perceived themselves as being in an imminent life-threatening situation.

D. OP must convince Masipa he objectively had no other reasonable means of avoiding that perceived threat and therefore, arming himself and proceeding into the bathroom was the only reasonable option available to him.

E. OP must convince Masipa that firing 4 shots into a closed toilet door was an objectively reasonable response.

… IMO, OP fails miserably on all points : A, B, C, D and E.
 
If her brain helped her bring her arm to her head....
her brain helped her scream!
Hopefully M'lady will put all Reeva's truth pieces together
I think the answers were in that very cube he carried her so hastily away from...
They say your neighbors are your best fight against crime...the weight of their words,
TG for them


JMO


Re my sig line~
my father always said if you pay attention some people will actually tell you the truth within a lie.
 
Excellent post Pandax !!!

Just a comment on BIB as per how can one's intent to kill unlawfully be subtracted and therefore escape a murder conviction :

*respectfully snipped*

Putative Private Defence (PPD)

1. The Judge must find the accused was in a situation where he perceived his life was subjectively being imminently threatened and that a reasonable person in the same situation would also have perceived an imminent life threatening situation.

2. The Judge must find that the accused had objectively no other reasonable means of avoiding, escaping or extracting himself from said life threatening situation.

3. The Judge must find that the accused self-defense response to said threat was objectively reasonable.

Thanks AJ.

We've had this out before - I disagree with your understanding of putative private defence, strongly so. If I have time later, I'll cite the relevant law and cases.

  • Putative private defence is a complete defence against murder, it is not a complete defence against culpable homicide. An accused can be found to have acted in putative private defence and also be found guilty of culpable homicide.
  • The test for murder is purely subjective - what the accused actually believed and intended - as intention to kill unlawfully is assessed subjectively. It is not objective. What matters is what the accused actually perceived, not what a reasonable person would have perceived. What matters is whether an accused believed there was means of escape, not whether there was in fact a means of escape. What matters is that the accused believed the response he took was reasonable, not whether it was objectively reasonable.
  • This is not to say whether we view things as reasonable is irrelevant for the murder charge. Reasonableness can be relevant indirectly. Whether we believe the accused is key, and we may say that the claimed thoughts and actions are so unreasonable, that they are unbelievable - exactly as the state says "so unreasonable, that they cannot be reasonably possibly true". Eg if an accused says in a public toilet cubicle, he heard the toilet flush and therefore thought he was about to be killed. You may well say OP's version is not dis-similar. However it is important to recognise there is a space in-between where the accused is believed, but he still acted unreasonably.
  • The requirements you cite are not requirements to defend against a murder charge - they go above and beyond, since so long as you didn't have the subjective intention to unlawfully kill a human being, then you didn't murder. The requirements you cite are instead relevant to defending against culpable homicide, where the test is objective and the question is what a reasonable person would have done. If found to have acted in true putative private defence, then an accused is not guilty of murder. The competent verdict of culpable homicide may then be considered, and here an objective test of reasonableness is applied as it always is, the fact you acted in putative private defence does not make it reasonable or unreasonable per se.
 
AJ_DS - how did you match the cell tower names from the phone evidence with their actual locations in the timeline thread?
 
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