Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

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I personally don't think fame and money had/has anything to do with it .. there are plenty of ordinary Joe Bloggs out there who are exactly the same as him .. they are just Jekyll and Hyde characters, that's all, and they seem to be born like it. The nice side of them is just really nice (not necessarily in a smarmy, creepy way .. but just a natural way, just like how you see Pistorius in that vid there) and it is what attracts you to them .. you can see exactly why Reeva would've been attracted to him, and in his 'nice' mode, I think he's absolutely gorgeous .. but when he (or people like him) turn then you'd better watch out because they are nasty as hell, but of course, by then it's too late, you're already under their spell ..

“Nice mode” is exactly right, Jay.

These kind of people know how to flip a switch whenever it serves their purpose - and for narcissists it’s all about total CONTROL.

Everything is wonderful as long as everything goes their way. When it doesn’t, the instant transformation of such a person from nice to red rage can be downright terrifying. It really is like two different people. They eventually rule the relationship through constant, subtle manipulation, overt intimidation and direct threats of many kinds, including violence. No abuser ever started off a relationship by abusing - it is a process to first gain the victim’s love and trust.

From my personal experience as a domestic abuse survivor (so totally naive and trusting at age 18), I literally never saw that first, vicious slap coming. I was stunned into total shock. (The “reason” for the slap? During a rain storm, his car was stuck in deep mud and we couldn’t get it out.)

Nel brilliantly defended using Reeva’s recent Whatsapp messages as proof she was sometimes afraid of OP, as well as confused, angry and unhappy (directly supporting the argument-shooting scenario) by quoting psychologist Leonard Carr’s perfect analogy:

90% of the body may be healthy but it’s the 10% cancerous part that you better pay attention to.
 
I think that's unfair to Roux, to be honest. It's not up to him to fix the justice system and he hasn't actually done anything wrong.

Without defence lawyers, criminal justice would not work. Someone has to stand up for the accused, whoever it is, and make the best possible case they can. Yes, he's played around with the timeline, given certain things more emphasis than they deserve and so on, but he has not been actively dishonest, or lied - he's just been clever.

OP sold his house to pay for this defence & Roux owes him the best possible chance he can get for him.

Frustrating for us, of course, as we can see that OP is as guilty as they come and we hope Masipa will see that too....but Roux is doing his job, and he's doing it very well indeed. Unfortunately!

Nel is also exceptionally good at his job, so let's keep calm and trust in Gerrie Nel! :)

BIB - That's what he'd like everyone to believe, but I am of the opinion he was getting rid of assets knowing there's an impending wrongful death civil lawsuit in his not too distant future.
 
Speaking of screams . . .

Johnson’s testimony certainly jammed Roux in between a rock and another rock. LOL

Johnson states he heard BOTH a woman AND a man screaming. This at once tosses Defense’s claim that only OP screamed totally out the window and not only strongly supports the State’s case that Reeva did scream but that there was indeed a raging argument.

In which case, OP’s “intruder” story and “mistaken identity” are completely shot to hell.

As to Johnson’s description of the man’s calls for help as “embarrassed”, would this not actually support the theory that OP was indeed mocking Reeva’s terrified screams for help?

Why would someone be “embarrassed” to yell for help in a dire crisis like that? They wouldn’t!

Perhaps “embarrassed” was the only word Johnson could adequately come up with to describe the strange “Help. Help. Help.” he heard - he very likely never contemplated that a merciless killer was actually mocking his victim’s cries for help.

BIB

Good point. Anyone remember how the defence addressed this point in their heads of arguments? I'll have to search this up when I get back home
 
The #1 contention in this entire trial, the most crucial factor is Reeva’s screams.

Four credible ear witnesses testified to hearing a woman’s (blood-curdling) screams.
One credible ear witness testifies to hearing lengthy arguing.

Defense abysmally failed to disprove the accounts of these five witnesses.

Worst of all, Defense totally failed to even attempt to prove that OP screams like a woman - despite their contention that it was OP screaming that night, not Reeva. This claim was the very heart of their defense!

The fact that certain witnesses may have heard little to nothing cannot neutralize multiple witness accounts of a woman screaming. (There are many reasons for not hearing or not hearing well - OP should understand this concept well, after firing four shots that night and becoming temporarily deaf.)

One must put forth superior evidence and reason to refute the opposition - Roux utterly FAILED to do this on all counts regarding the screams.

He could not and did not present audio evidence of OP screaming like a woman because OP does NOT scream like a woman. (His pathetic, desperate “evidence” was having his female witnesses attempt to scream like OP screaming like a woman. Why didn’t Roux have Oscar demonstrate in court?! Because he knows it’s a flat-out LIE. LOL)

This is the fatal flaw in Defense’s case and Roux knows it.

This is why Roux has gone so very hard after "police tampering", "missing electrical cord", "GAD" :lol: and OP's allegedly lifelong, debilitating "disability" (which seemed to have cropped up only after Feb. 14, 2013. He's simply got NOTHING. LOL

The ONLY way Judge Masipa can discount the State’s very strong evidence of Reeva’s screams (and an argument) is to weigh in favor of the Defense’s more credible evidence proving otherwise - of which there was none.

I tell you, Reeva’s screams will take Oscar down.

i agree about the screams. major problem #1.
another one, for me, even if his version is to be believed... is that he clearly didn't establish the whereabouts of the other person in the house before challenging this supposed intruder with his gun; all his talk about putting himself between reeva and the danger really is crass.
 
I agree -the row could have escalated from something completely trivial. Regarding the damaged bath panel and the damaged bedroom door etc, I wish Milady or the assessors had asked Mr Roux what his client's position was in relation to these, as there seem to be quite a lot of elephants in the room. I feel that, regardless of the verdict, the trial was Reeva's parents opportunity to get as many answers from OP as possible.

BBM: ...and IMO her parents got no true answers--except for how little regard this indignant little man had for their daughter.

Regarding the row: There is no proof, but looking at OP's history, IMO it was alcohol fueled and needed very little spark to cause a blow up.

(We know that he wasn't blood tested until the following afternoon.)
 
The #1 contention in this entire trial, the most crucial factor is Reeva’s screams.

Four credible ear witnesses testified to hearing a woman’s (blood-curdling) screams.
One credible ear witness testifies to hearing lengthy arguing.

Defense abysmally failed to disprove the accounts of these five witnesses.

Worst of all, Defense totally failed to even attempt to prove that OP screams like a woman - despite their contention that it was OP screaming that night, not Reeva. This claim was the very heart of their defense!

The fact that certain witnesses may have heard little to nothing cannot neutralize multiple witness accounts of a woman screaming. (There are many reasons for not hearing or not hearing well - OP should understand this concept well, after firing four shots that night and becoming temporarily deaf.)

One must put forth superior evidence and reason to refute the opposition - Roux utterly FAILED to do this on all counts regarding the screams.

He could not and did not present audio evidence of OP screaming like a woman because OP does NOT scream like a woman. (His pathetic, desperate “evidence” was having his female witnesses attempt to scream like OP screaming like a woman. Why didn’t Roux have Oscar demonstrate in court?! Because he knows it’s a flat-out LIE. LOL)

This is the fatal flaw in Defense’s case and Roux knows it.

This is why Roux has gone so very hard after "police tampering", "missing electrical cord", "GAD" :lol: and OP's allegedly lifelong, debilitating "disability" (which seemed to have cropped up only after Feb. 14, 2013. He's simply got NOTHING. LOL

The ONLY way Judge Masipa can discount the State’s very strong evidence of Reeva’s screams (and an argument) is to weigh in favor of the Defense’s more credible evidence proving otherwise - of which there was none.

I tell you, Reeva’s screams will take Oscar down.

BIB: As will Dr Stipp. Does anyone remember how Roux was pressing him to describe the voices he'd heard prior to the gunshots and Dr Stipp said they were "intermingled". He is a nightmare witness for the DT - heard "intermingled voices", the screams, the gunshots, saw a figure moving in the lit up bathroom, went to help (heroically) because he thought he heard a "family murder" and in spite of three adults already being on the scene (not counting Frank) was the first to call an ambulance.
 
"Dishonest" as in "lying"? No. Sorry. They presented their pictures and hoped that no one would notice the height difference. Inept and clueless, rather than actively deceitful. Lying would be digitally altering the pics to make it look like something it wasn't. They didn't do that.

The sound recording was dodgy, as the volume had been increased to make the bat strikes louder....but they weren't using it as loudness comparisons, just whether the sound was similar. So, again, I think this was careless stupidity rather than outright dishonesty.

One of the reasons I think the defence has been so abysmal is because they are mostly an honest bunch and none of them prepared to actively lie. Except perhaps Derman, who I do not trust one little bit.

But I think it's always a mistake to go after the defence lawyers in situations like this. They are doing an important job and we can't blame them for doing it well.

JMO.

BIB: I'd say that they were deliberately misleading...

However I don't personally think Roux's behind some of the witness antics. The timeline trickery , the GAD defence, the "startle" nonsense, the anaethestist's testimony are all what I'd expect from a good defence lawyer but I find it hard to believe that Dixon, for example, was his choice. And I'm sure OP's lack of responsibility and magically firing gun are not Roux's idea either. Oscar and the Pistorii clan have likely had more input that Roux would like into the way the defence's argument has been presented.

I'll bet Roux and Nel are pretty friendly in "real life". I can imagine them over a beer having a laugh, "I can't believe you sent Oscar for psychiatric evulation! Ha ha!"

(Disclaimer : I do not think that mental illness is funny but Nel's calling OP's "diminished criminal responsibility" bluff was, IMO).
 
Looking back at the problems the police had gaining access to the 0020 phone, it is clear to me that a complex (rather than simple) Passcode was set on this iPhone. A complex Passcode (for non-iPhone users) can be a longer password, consisting of numbers, letters and special characters rather than simply 4 digits.

The software the police used, Cellebrite, is capable of extracting a simple (4 digit) Passcode from a phone and this can then be used to decrypt all of the data. This would explain how the police accessed Reeva's phone (which, according to OP, had a Passcode set on it). However, the software is not capable of discovering a complex Passcode and therefore this must be provided by the user in order to decrypt the data. Hence the reason the police had to fly out to Apple US.

To my mind, one of two possibilities exists. Either OP was extremely protective of access to this phone or the complex Passcode was set by whoever took the phone. If the latter, it would explain him 'forgetting' the code. There is a setting whereby 10 invalid Passcode entry attempts will permanently erase all data on the phone. Makes you wonder.
 
BIB: I'd say that they were deliberately misleading...

However I don't personally think Roux's behind some of the witness antics. The timeline trickery , the GAD defence, the "startle" nonsense, the anaethestist's testimony are all what I'd expect from a good defence lawyer but I find it hard to believe that Dixon, for example, was his choice. And I'm sure OP's lack of responsibility and magically firing gun are not Roux's idea either. Oscar and the Pistorii clan have likely had more input that Roux would like into the way the defence's argument has been presented.

I'll bet Roux and Nel are pretty friendly in "real life". I can imagine them over a beer having a laugh, "I can't believe you sent Oscar for psychiatric evulation! Ha ha!"

(Disclaimer : I do not think that mental illness is funny but Nel's calling OP's "diminished criminal responsibility" bluff was, IMO).

BiB Absolutely.
 
There’s very good reason Gerrie Nel is called the “Bull Dog”.

... Nel is no stranger to pressure and intimidation. During the Selebi trial, he was ARRESTED at his home in the early hours of January 8, 2008, in what appeared to be a bid to disrupt the investigation against the former top cop.

Taken into custody by 20 POLICE OFFICERS in front of his wife and children, the alleged fraud charges were later dropped. Two years later, he secured a corruption conviction against Selebi* who was jailed for 15 years in the High Court in Johannesburg in 2010. ...


PROFILE: Gerrie Nel - a prosecutor with the 'golden touch'
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/6580b...a-prosecutor-with-the-'golden-touch'-20140227

* Notorious Jackie Selebi, ex-National Commissioner of South African Police Services and ex-President of INTERPOL. Yes, Nel brings down the big game. :D

Nel's arrest and the three-ring-circus they made out of it is beyond disgraceful imo. It's a wonder Nel didn't sue them... well, on second thought, I can see why he wouldn't...

Excellent profile on Nel. I would now be interested in seeing a good profile of Roux if any of you can point me in the right direction.

This quote by Nel, in the link Lux provided, makes me so sad. Let's face it... OP executed Reeva. She knew he was going to kill her and that she was helplessly, hopelessly trapped... and that nothing and nobody was going to stop him. No innocent person should have to die like that. (And imo she was totally innocent in that there is nothing bad enough that she could have said or done that night to give OP an excuse to kill her.)

"There is no possible information to support his version that it was a burglar," said Nel. "She couldn't go anywhere. You can run nowhere... It must have been horrific."
 
I hope the below link is "clickable." If not, pls let me know...

See Post#996 by Liesbeth of South Africa who shares how locals are looking at the guilt/innocence of OP. It's fascinating reading... thanks again, Liesbeth!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...al-arguments-continue&p=10841095#post10841095

Here's the subj post:
It's not too personal, Suthrngt, not at all.

In South Africa the word on the street is that Oscar is guilty. This is the prevailing opinion and there is no difference in gender, colour, religion or age that I can see. Even the few Pistorians I know think he's guilty, but they feel sorry for him and try to excuse/explain his actions.

Many people think Oscar lost his temper and shot Reeva during an argument. Most want him to man up, tell the truth and take his medicine. Some feel he can be forgiven, but only if he tells the truth.

Some people are more inclined to accept a guilty person's apology because in their culture an apology is made not only to the victim's family, but also to the victim herself. And when I say the victim herself it is not a metaphor. There is a belief that as long as a person's name is spoken they will remain here. Literally. So in many African cultures an apology to the family (and by extension the victim) is the first thing a guilty person does.

Of course the family of a victim also has the power to influence the guilty person's fate. The family can influence sentencing. If convicted the family will be consulted before he gets paroled.

I hope this answers your question. If not, please feel free to ask again.
 
If you have 20 or so minutes to spare this Sky video is worth watching to refresh one’s memory of how OP performed on the stand. It covers Nel cross examining OP on many different points of his Statement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw6PDga4MlA

Oscar Pistorius Is Called A Liar - Trial Day 20

Why doesn't he get the "shot through the sunroof" kind of mad that I see him doing....
Why doesn't he show THAT kind of mad when accused of arguing, chasing, killing RS in the cube???
 
Given the poor performance of defence witnesses, expert and Pistorius alike, Roux has no choice but to go after the state witnesses and establish doubt over their testimony.

It is possible to establish doubt if you look at the neighbour witnesses timeline in isolation and then demonstrate inconsistencies between them all, particularly when tying those events in with Pistorius' version. The defence team has gone to great lengths to try to establish earlier or later timings to key events for this very end.

This however is exactly why Nel has implored the Judge to look at the balance of probability, the mosaic as it were. From the state's POV, discrepancies in timings or what spouses heard when does not alter the events heard or observed.
Personally, I don't believe the defence has done enough to convince the judge to doubt the collective evidence of an argument and female screams prior to the shooting. That Pistorius appeared to tailor his own version makes the defence's sale even harder.

IIRC all legal experts have said that minor inconsistencies will not matter and that the mosaic, the totality of their collective evidence, is the most important thing, not forgetting that the ear witnesses are independent witnesses who did not know OP personally.
 
BIB : I think where Op is in genuine trouble is that the evidence didn't really show an alternative series of events. None of his "experts" advanced his cause at all, leaving things pretty much exactly where he started, with the earwitnesses plus a lot of inexplicable evidence such as the photographs depicting the damage to the bathroom, the blood trail over the duvet, the position of the fans etc. Roux's had to do a lot of fiddling to get that timeline - using Johnson's "rough" notes which Johnson himself said were unreliable, rounding time estimates to suit his case, asking the court to discard earwitness evidence that doesn't suit his timeline, turning Dr Stipp's (0 second, likely an error) call to security into a conversation that the doctor had at his home yet at a time when Dr Stipp had actually arrived at OP's house but also suggesting that Dr Stipp's evidence was biased and should be rejected etc.

Having said that though he argues so convincingly and so well that if this was a jury trial I think OP would be in a better position. I am assuming that the Judge and her assessors will closely evaluate the presented evidence themselves and not rely on Roux's interpretation of it and that Nel, in knowing the strength of the State's earwitnesses, doesn't need to jump up and down telling the court what they need to infer. I am also assuming that, being trained in such matters, the Judge and assessors will be skilled at weighing up all the evidence and thus will not make a decision based on a single factor about the case ("help help help", or OP's disability=vulnerability argument) which would have been a potential problem with a jury, who, as we have seen on here, may well have contained a member who simply can't see past a single point to look at the wider picture. Because of the complexity of the case with OP's disability and his own high profile I would be a lot less confidant if this was to be decided by a jury. Although having said that I'm sure Nel's presentation and explanation of the facts would be very different if this were the case.

The other factor which makes me confidant is that the vast majority of posters here immediately saw Roux's trickery in skewing the timeline and also all of the other "cheap DT tricks" - OP's supposed puking, wailing "remorse", his memory lapses on the stand, the inconsistencies in his testimony, his shocking and sometimes frankly biased defence witnesses, lack of expert witness note taking, the late reports, the wailing of female ear witnesses imitating the crying that they knew was from a man etc. I'm sure we're a clever bunch but I'm equally sure that when it comes to criminal law and criminal defence, things that raise our "bull waste" hackles will also be noted by the Judge and assessors who are, I'm sure, able to more than match the cleverest of us intellectually and who will leave us all for dust when it comes to their knowledge of South African criminal law.

In the attached poll, you'll see that 88% of people believe he'll be found guilty of murder. 3 pages of comment.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/will-oscar-pistorius-be-found-guilty-of-murder
 
My point was not that it's up to Barry Roux to fix the justice system (or to suggest he has done anything wrong) ...it was that Barry Roux took it upon himself to tell this room full of young lawyers (future lawyers) that:
A) here is what is wrong with the justice system
and
B) as young lawyers, what are EACH of YOU going to do to fix it?

I implied that this made Roux seem like a hypocrite. As Roux, a very prominent & influential lawyer, is NOT concerned nor doing anything to fix what's wrong with the justice system. In fact he is making a very lucrative living by exploiting the weak links that are broken in their justice system. Certainly he has a 100% right to do this. I however, found it ironic that he would suggest to all these future lawyers that THEY needed to "fix" this & should think about how THEY can go about doing so. He doesn't! So why is he asking them to? .....that was my point.

I agree that everyone has the right to a defense. I disagree that at all costs, defense lawyers have a right to use "trickery", to get their clients off "Scott free" if they feel their client is truly guilty of the crime. The justice system is about seeking justice. It does NOT mean that you can commit murder, then with the right defense team, $$ & "trickery", you can hope to just walk away a free man. (FYI: I am NOT suggesting that you have implied this in your reply. No, not at all. I am just stating this as a concern that I have.)

I do not have the same respect for all defense teams (or prosecutions) when they try to "win at all costs". That is not justice regardless of what side of the fence you're on.

I would also NOT use the terms "inept & clueless" to describe Barry Roux's team. They are the complete opposite of that. They are not clueless in the least and they are definitely not inept, they are extremely skillful, seasoned & talented lawyers. "Careless Stupidity" . . . not this team, no way, IMO.

That is absolutely correct. Years ago I asked a leading counsel this very question. His reply was if counsel truly believe their client is guilty, their main aim is to ensure that they get a fair trial. It is up to the judge or jury to make a decision as to guilt.
 
Why doesn't he get the "shot through the sunroof" kind of mad that I see him doing....
Why doesn't he show THAT kind of mad when accused of arguing, chasing, killing RS in the cube???

He's probably on mild sedatives.
 
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