Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Exchange973]

I don't think the shots are at 3:17. More like 3:15 to 3:16. The evidence supports this (as I've posted before).

I don't agree we know he "knocked down the door" after the shots. I believe he pulled out the panels, which would be relatively simple if he'd already hit the door (before the shots) with the bat. It takes him 30 seconds to put his stumps on. He may then have pulled Reeva out of the toilet. What else has he to do before calling Stander?

And to be accurate Masipa did not ask if the phone timings were common cause, she asks if the chronology of events in the Defence HoA are common cause. Nel replies that only the phone data is common cause.

I must also correct something I said (though the effect is the same). It's Carice who says the kitchen lights are on and Stander who says the lights at the bottom of the house are on when they arrive.

True - you're right she asked if defence chronology in HOA was common cause. But since defence rely on the implausibility of prosecution case on those timings I think that might show where her mind is going. Not long to find out anyway!

 

[Mr Fossil]

True - you're right she asked if defence chronology in HOA was common cause. But since defence rely on the implausibility of prosecution case on those timings I think that might show where her mind is going. Not long to find out anyway!

I've added a little more to my reply since you've responded.

That said, I've been concentrating on the times before 03:00 and after 03:16 in my sleuthing and believe that there is evidence to support a different version of events to OP's (see my earlier posts relating to the phone data). I don't believe the evidence that was presented was used to best effect and am particularly interested in discovering what it may really tell us. Obviously the judge and her assessors will reach their verdict based on their interpretation of everything they have been presented with.

 

[eimajjjj]

Little OT but very much related: the guy who thought he was under attack from a knock at the door in the US just got 17 years. Food for thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29049224

 

[Hazy]

I agree with you, but doesn't this actually suggest that he is telling the truth, i.e. that the shots did not take place at 3:17 but earlier than this. This would give enough time for everything to have happened. Even if you take the view that he was lying about going to the kitchen etc, there are things that we know must have happened after the shots, i.e. knocking down the door, and putting on stumps etc, which is still v. difficult to fit into the time available after 3:17.

I think this is going to play an important part in Judge Masipa's reasoning - she asked if the phone timings were common cause for a reason!

There were no more bangs or shots after 3.16. - 3.17 so of he shot her then there wasn't much to do after but pull off panels, pull Reeva out, run downstairs with prothesis on (which takes him seconds), phone Stander then back up stairs to pick up Reeva.

This guy can move pretty damn fast with legs on as we know.

From 3 -16 to when Stander says he arrived (only an estimate) at 3.22 ish is 6 minutes.

If he shot her at 3.12 he had a whole 10 minutes before Stander arrived.

Only four minutes less for 3.16 shots which is completely doable if you are of the opinion he didn't do all that running up and down the bedroom etc.

 

[foxbluff]

Yes, but that doesn't mean he hadn't been notified that that was about to happen, correct?

Oh gosh... I've been under the impression all along that it was OP/DT who cancelled the gun order and application for special gun collector's permit after he killed Reeva with a gun... i.e. them not wanting it to come to light that (with all OP's problems handling guns) he had a whole arsenal of guns headed his way !! IDK...

 

[Val1]

I have another question, in Roux's closing argument he says:

Roux: Because of immediate neighbors our reliance on sound experts disappeared. We simply needed to prove it was the same time, once we did that it was bingo.

Could someone please tell how he proved the sounds the immediate neighbours heard, which iirc btw did not include either the first or the second set of bangshots(other than one single bang that iirc the wife had said had woke her up which to me would have been in all probability the headshot), but rather only the wailing just before the commotion at OP's when security etc arrived, were the same time as what the other neighbours had heard which all of them had heard at least one set of bangshots preceeded by the yelling/screaming by both a man and a woman?? In fact, didn't both Stipp and Johnson testify to hearing both a man and a woman at the same time, just before the final set of bangshots?

 

[Val1]

Oh gosh... I've been under the impression all along that it was OP/DT who cancelled the gun order and application for special gun collector's permit after he killed Reeva with a gun... i.e. them not wanting it to come to light that (with all OP's problems handling guns) he had a whole arsenal of guns headed his way !! IDK...

To tell the truth, I have no proof, however when you look at the protocol involved with getting the permits/licences(applied for January 22, 2013) it certainly appears that it's possible that he didn't pass the checklist and if he couldn't get the permit for all those guns, then it sounds like Rens would not have been willing to let him walk away with the arsenal he had not only ordered months and months before(June 2012) assuming he would get it, even though OP had paid for most of it upfront. You can bet Rens had heard about the whole millionaire/Batchelor threats in the news, which occurred after the gun order but before the application for the license to own them.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I so much wanted to watch this trial but life got in the way.

Every time I read he was vomiting or weeping I grew more angry toward him and have not been able to forgive him, especially when he walked passed her parents with a nod and a smile. His arrogance and illegal behavior is made worse because he was admired as someone who overcame obstacles; hence, the fall from grace is more disappointing and perhaps everlasting.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that OP intentionally killed the lovely Reeva. What was his motivation? Being a hot head psychopath may explain it but I was looking for something deeper than a personality disorder. Did the prosecutors offer a motive for OPs actions?

moo jmo omho

bbm

Ditto!

 

[kittychi]

It occurred to me that no matter who was behind that door, Oscar would have been faced with an injured or murdered human being.

Why wouldn't he call Security for help immediately, even if he thought there was an intruder in that toilet room. If his version were true, he still HAD to know there was an injured or dead person behind that door after he fired the shots.

He says it wasn't until THEN that all of a sudden "it dawns on him" that he hasn't heard any response from Reeva, but he says he still spends valuable time scruffling around in the bedroom looking behind curtains, etc., for her, while a dead or injured person bleeds in his toilet. Really, Oscar? She maybe was hiding behind the curtains???

His whole story is a such a huge, stinkin' crock. inocchio:

 

[Hazy]

I have another question, in Roux's closing argument he says:



Could someone please tell how he proved the sounds the immediate neighbours heard, which iirc btw did not include either the first or the second set of bangshots(other than one single bang that iirc the wife had said had woke her up which to me would have been in all probability the headshot), but rather only the wailing just before the commotion at OP's when security etc arrived, were the same time as what the other neighbours had heard which all of them had heard at least one set of bangshots preceeded by the yelling/screaming by both a man and a woman?? In fact, didn't both Stipp and Johnson testify to hearing both a man and a woman at the same time, just before the final set of bangshots?

All Roux is doing is placing times to fit their version. The time of 3.12 only comes from Johnston's Rough notes.

Roux is sly.

Bat sounds like gunshots

Crying = screaming

Shouting / yelling = screaming

Screaming = screaming

Crying loudly = blood curdling screams .... If you believe him

The 3.12 -3.14 times come from Johnston's rough notes.

 

[Hazy]

One must also ask why Stander didn't phone security or the police. As a former head of security at Silverwoods he would know the correct procedures to follow Perhaps he was told not to

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Example of bail pending appeal being denied after conviction:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2013/sca2013-001.pdf

HAH! In this case, Wolmarans was ballistics expert for Defense and Mangena was ballistics expert for State! LOL I'm loving it.

I think this is a good sign!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

The Daily Star Sunday can reveal the amputee runner’s prized trophies were strewn across the floor when officers arrived – and some were damaged. Investigators believe this may point to a row between Pistorius and girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp before he shot her four times. Officers are trying to establish whether the awards might have ended up around his home during an alleged dispute. ...

One police source said: “... One had been wrecked and they were in an untidy mess. ...”

Oscar Pistorius’ trophies were strewn all over death flat
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...rius-trophies-were-strewn-all-over-death-flat

Has anyone seen any other media sources that would help confirm this alleged event?

(Who is this Silver Woods security chief Patrick Roux who’s referenced?)

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Analysis of OP's handwriting.

http://analysishandwriting.com/Oscar_Pistorius.php

 

[44ALLAN]

I know that Roux didn't raise any defence during the trial about the screams, but he certainly used a lot of smoke and mirrors during the heads of arguments to explain the screams and their timings. I found it interesting that Masipa asked Nel whether he accepts the timings as common cause to which he answered only the cell phone times were common cause

Exactly.................smoke and mirrors lol.
I noticed it and so did you............................do you really think Masipa and her 2 assessors will be 'hoodwinked' by all that rubbish?
I think not

 

[soozieqtips]

One must also ask why Stander didn't phone security or the police. As a former head of security at Silverwoods he would know the correct procedures to follow Perhaps he was told not to

When Stander and Carice arrived, one of them told OP to put Reeva down and told him there was an ambulance on its way. But at that time, no ambulance had even been called. It was Dr Stipp who later got Stander to confirm that no ambulance had been called, and it was he who told Stander to call one. I've never understood why either Johann or Carice would have said an ambulance was on its way, unless OP lied and said Netcare were sending one.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

It's the fine detail that he freely offers that always puts me on high alert with his answers. Why not just say something like, "I needed to protect Reeva and me so I reached down and grabbed my gun". To me it was totally unnecessary to mention the holster at all. If Nel wanted to know if it was in the holster he could have asked, but no, OP had to get it in first and there was probably a reason for that. It's beyond belief all the small detail he remembers about inconsequential things but when it comes to anything important he either didn't have time to think or wasn't sure. In cross-examination alone he didn’t have time to think approx. 12 times and wasn't sure approx. 30 times. Sort of telling isn't it?

And then there’s that excellent article http://www.africanman.co.za/?p=309

“… in the rest of his affidavit Oscar refers to himself (‘I&#8217 82 times. He refers to Reeva just 6 times”. Yep, it’s all about him. She’s only worthy of being mentioned in passing ... could have been anybody.

“When Oscar describes Reeva (in his affidavit and his testimony) his descriptions are mute and constrained. But his descriptions of everyone else are in the finest details”. “The officer had shorts on…they were casually dressed…” He tells us where they were standing, what they say to him, their gestures and movements. About Stipp we get a psychological assessment. “He seemed overwhelmed by the…the situation.” Stipp, a doctor, discovered the young woman had been shot to death. If there was nothing he could do to save her, this does not mean he was overwhelmed”. Once again, lots of fine detail.

“In Oscar’s affidavit he uses the words ‘I have’ 13 times and shows similar disassociation when referring to Reeva. In explaining how and why he shot Reeva Oscar tells us ‘I have received death threats’ and ‘I have been a victim of violence.’ Why would he say this in his affidavit? These two statements did not have to be included. All he needed to say at this point was that he heard a noise and thought an intruder had entered his home.

“During his testimony-in chief he said, “I ran back to the room…and shouted from the balcony for help. I screamed ‘help, help, help’. I screamed for somebody to help me…. I was crying out to the Lord to help me….” Me, me, me, me, me. “Help me”!!! To my way of thinking, if it was an accident and once he saw what he’d done, a “normal” person would have said “Oh my God, nooooooooooo” and immediately run and grabbed his phone, rung Netcare and said, “I’ve just shot my girlfriend. I’m not sure if she’s still alive but she’s seriously wounded. Send an ambulance immediately”, not sit down for he doesn’t know how long and cried. This can only be because he was waiting for her to die. He said that Netcare had told him to bring her to hospital, except the court was never shown any evidence of that alleged conversation. No doubt he just blubbered into the phone and gave no details whatsoever but phone records would show that he had rung them. And seriously, take a person to hospital with a gunshot wound to the head, an arm that’s virtually amputated, and the hip injury? OP never told Stander to ring for an ambulance only to come to his house and that he shot her because he thought she was an intruder. And how did Oscar feel … saddened. It beggars belief.

“But does he help Reeva? A disabled person trying to carry a mortally wounded person down stairs? Isn’t that reckless endangerment? Oscar claims he was ‘helping’ her by attempting to get her to hospital”. I can’t even begin to contemplate that either he or any of his family or friends would have considered taking her to hospital. Total bulldust and utter cr*p.

“Crucially, during cross-examination Oscar said: “At that point I was shouting and screaming for him (Stipp) to help me.” Me. Not Reeva. And just how was Stipp supposed to help him?

His whole story is disgusting, stomach-churning, revolting and sickening in the extreme, and I hope he rots in prison for many years. He said many times that he didn’t have time to think that night but I’m hoping he’ll have many, many years to think about it when he goes to prison.

- Judgejudi

Great post, Judgejudi. Agree 100%.

He really is the most hideous kind of monster - one that’s hidden in gorgeous, glittering, very expensive gift wrap that everyone gushes over and wants to open - not unlike Pandora’s Box.

So many individual facts (big and small) in this case are absolutely damning but ALL taken together as a whole - wow, the resultant web of logical inferences forming the “mosaic” is almost better than a signed confession by OP. Here’s one more nail in Oscar’s prison-orange coffin:

At NO time did OP ever attempt to perform CPR and/or mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on Reeva - he never even checked her pulse! (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong on any fact.) Were there towels wrapped around Reeva’s wounds as he carried her downstairs? NO. (He knew she was already dead!) All the “assistance” Reeva got from him (at the bottom of the stairs) was his fingers in her mouth to “help her breath” (how does that work exactly?!). More like insurance to keep her from possibly speaking even one accusatory word against him till she was confirmed dead.

Seriously, were his phone calls and actions those of a reasonable man trying to save his lover’s life? Do his blatant life-or-death omissions sound like a man in love, a heartbroken, terrified guy trying desperately to save his “beloved’s” life?!

In my eyes, his actions immediately after the shooting are, once again, practically a signed confession that he wanted her to DIE.

It must have terrified and repulsed him to have to even touch her (pulse, what pulse?), let alone carry her bloody, broken body all the way downstairs. (Did he puke in the bathroom when he first saw her or was that just for court? We know for a fact he didn’t scream with shock.)

But, of course, he was forced to remove her from the gory crime scene for multiple reasons - police photos of dead women in tiny, bloody toilets are BAD and to fully play out his dramatic “intruder” story to the very tragic end.

Had he not carried her downstairs, I doubt he would have had any blood on him at all (which would have looked even worse and more suspicious!) - except perhaps for the bottom of his socks. Carrying her mangled, lifeless body downstairs served one more crucial purpose - covered with his “beloved” Reeva’s blood, he could tragically present himself as a bloody “victim”, too.

Narcissists are master manipulators. Even so, it must be a nightmare for “lonely and alienated” Oscar.

How does one ever reconcile the “hero” within with the base, sniveling, ice-cold, murderous coward? You can’t, unless you’re a true psychopath.

If he had “issues” before, he’s got even more massively dire issues now. He’s already killed once, lost everything and is shunned by the world that previously adored him. That makes for a bitter, highly dangerous man.

He’s the LAST person who should ever be out on the streets ... free.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The Daily Star Sunday can reveal the amputee runner’s prized trophies were strewn across the floor when officers arrived – and some were damaged. Investigators believe this may point to a row between Pistorius and girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp before he shot her four times. Officers are trying to establish whether the awards might have ended up around his home during an alleged dispute. ...

One police source said: “... One had been wrecked and they were in an untidy mess. ...”

Oscar Pistorius’ trophies were strewn all over death flat
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...rius-trophies-were-strewn-all-over-death-flat

Has anyone seen any other media sources that would help confirm this alleged event?

(Who is this Silver Woods security chief Patrick Roux who’s referenced?)

I'm sure I have seen a pic with the threwn trophies. It has to be a fact. The pic isn't available since long time. IMO: The South Africa hero wasn't allowed to maltreat this symbols of South Africa power and to disturb the feelings of his supporters and fans.

 

[Hazy]

When Stander and Carice arrived, one of them told OP to put Reeva down and told him there was an ambulance on its way. But at that time, no ambulance had even been called. It was Dr Stipp who later got Stander to confirm that no ambulance had been called, and it was he who told Stander to call one. I've never understood why either Johann or Carice would have said an ambulance was on its way, unless OP lied and said Netcare were sending one.

Carice said her Dad was phoning one a few times apparently before Stipp phoned one. Hmm

Their mission was to discredit what Stipp said in any way they could methinks, or to simply confuse matters and they feel that that back each other up so it's them against Stipp. I will be interested to hear what Masipa makes of all this.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It occurred to me that no matter who was behind that door, Oscar would have been faced with an injured or murdered human being.

Why wouldn't he call Security for help immediately, even if he thought there was an intruder in that toilet room. If his version were true, he still HAD to know there was an injured or dead person behind that door after he fired the shots.

He says it wasn't until THEN that all of a sudden "it dawns on him" that he hasn't heard any response from Reeva, but he says he still spends valuable time scruffling around in the bedroom looking behind curtains, etc., for her. Really, Oscar? She maybe was hiding behind the curtains???

His whole story is a huge, stinkin' crock. inocchio:

OP thinks murder spared the pain. Therefore he also executed the poor dog, severely injured by him.