Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Val1]

I am exploring the scenario that OP did not run downstairs to open the front door or turn on the kitchen light or return and attempt to force open the secondary bedroom door after calling NetCare (or Baba). I don't think there was time. What if the doors and the light(s) were already in that state and needed to be worked into OP's version?

He says to Roux in his EIC "I could barely pick Reeva up. I wouldn’t have been able to open the doors and carry her so I ran ... I opened my bedroom door, umm, and I opened the front door." This makes sense. So:

1. Why didn't he unlatch the secondary bedroom door on the way out of the bedroom rather than the ridiculous story of trying to force it open before unlatching it on the way back? The sequence isn't ideal (but not necessarily wrong), however the action is nonsensical and it wastes time.

2. Stander says to Nel there were "lights on in the house at the bottom" when he arrives. Carice says to Nel "the kitchen light was on" when they arrive. Why turn on the kitchen light? It wastes time going to the kitchen.

3. Carice says when she arrives that "the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately." The door appears to open outwards so I'm guessing he could have pushed it fully open when he carried Reeva through it. But how was he going to unlock and open the car door whilst carrying Reeva? He seems to have forgotten this in his version. Shame Nel didn't explore this. I assume his car key is with the front door key that he retrieved from on the speaker.

I think the lights were left on because they had both been downstairs at some point. Maybe the front door was left open when Reeva opened it to leave and OP stopped her? And maybe the bedroom door was forced because Reeva had locked him out of the room (hence the damage to the edge of the door)?

I would like to know whatever happened to the report that OP's car was already unlocked and running early that morning, so unless the Stander's had testified on their affidavits that this was either false or that they were the ones to have done so(I seem to recall Stander at some point having told the security to make sure there weren't a bunch of vehicles in the driveway, whether that was for emergency services or to reduce attention?)

 

[Mr Fossil]

I would like to know whatever happened to the report that OP's car was already unlocked and running early that morning, so unless the Stander's had testified on their affidavits that this was either false or that they were the ones to have done so(I seem to recall Stander at some point having told the security to make sure there weren't a bunch of vehicles in the driveway, whether that was for emergency services or to reduce attention?)

Yes, I read this too. The papers were making up a lot of things in the early days e.g. they quote a police spokesman as saying that his trophies were strewn about the room and one was smashed (where's the photos?), that OP's 4949 white iPhone found in the bathroom was the one the police couldn't access (it was the 0020 iPhone that disappeared), that Reeva had been hit by the cricket bat (Cecil Myers saw no evidence when he identified Reeva and the post mortem did not confirm this)... I could go on! None of this was ever presented as actual evidence either at the bail hearing or the trial as far as I'm aware. It's probably all media fantasy.

 

[Val1]

Excellent post, thank you. Heaps of interesting info. One wonders how OP ever got a licence. His temper had obviously not been taken into account, although it had already hit the press!

Considering the assault charge re Taylor-Memmory from 2009, that's for sure! I wonder if his threats in Nov/12 came before or after he'd applied ... another thing to add to my list of things to check.:/

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/9716493/Oscar-Pistorius-settles-in-2009-assault-case

Oscar Pistorius reached a settlement with a woman over an alleged assault case from 2009 because his lawyers advised him he could not fight civil and criminal legal battles at the same time, the spokeswoman for the Olympic athlete said on Wednesday (local time).

 

[Cherwell]

Good one. I tried to find a white murderer to compare but was unsuccessful. Did you have any luck? I know it should not matter but, sadly, it does still matter whether one is black or white in SA, even though this problem is definitely improving.

What made you think that the defendant in that case is not white? The names are clearly Afrikaans. A quick search confirms that Ms Beetge (seen in centre of pic) is indeed white.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/mom-jailed-for-killing-love-of-her-life-1.1244082

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB

With no prior convictions, she could also just fine him for the gun charges. Mind you, this will be a bit harder for her to do now that he has wasted so much court time, only to confirm his negligence on one of the charges.

BBM - yes, it's possible, but considering OP perjured himself on the stand (by continuing to deny the gun going off in Tasha's was anything to do with him), I'm hoping she'll take his lies into account and send him directly to jail. It was pretty obvious that Roux told OP he had to admit to something, or else why wait till the last minute to reluctantly accept responsibility? Just because Masipa can fine him on the gun charge, it doesn't mean she will.

 

[Val1]

Yes, I read this too. The papers were making up a lot of things in the early days e.g. they quote a police spokesman as saying that his trophies were strewn about the room and one was smashed (where's the photos?), that OP's 4949 white iPhone found in the bathroom was the one the police couldn't access (it was the 0020 iPhone that disappeared), that Reeva had been hit by the cricket bat (Cecil Myers saw no evidence when he identified Reeva and the post mortem did not confirm this)... I could go on! None of this was ever presented as actual evidence either at the bail hearing or the trial as far as I'm aware. It's probably all media fantasy.

True enough but where did the ideas for some of those stories come from, I believe most of them had some truth to them otherwise you can bet Uncle Arnold would have sued for liable or whatever asap. As for the trophies, those could have easily been cleaned up by Frank, OP's family, lawyer, any of the 3 Stander's that were there, let alone any of the police that may have been fans of his. As for the phone, someone must have told them something, how else would they have known alot of that info. Poor Mr.Myers... I doubt he would have noticed the bruises that were determined as unrelated to the gunshots and as for the bloodied bat, many would have come to the same conclusion that the blood on it must have come from RS. Don't forget, most of these early stories were before the autopsy and even the bail hearing so someone talked somewhere, just like someone took pics of the crime scene and then sold them to Sky News. As for not being presented as evidence, Nel didn't present any argument about what happened after the murder, his whole case was simply to prove that OP had murdered RS with intent and anything that didn't relate directly to that just didn't matter to him... much to our dissatisfaction.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I would like to know whatever happened to the report that OP's car was already unlocked and running early that morning, so unless the Stander's had testified on their affidavits that this was either false or that they were the ones to have done so(I seem to recall Stander at some point having told the security to make sure there weren't a bunch of vehicles in the driveway, whether that was for emergency services or to reduce attention?)

Yes, I read this too. The papers were making up a lot of things in the early days e.g. they quote a police spokesman as saying that his trophies were strewn about the room and one was smashed (where's the photos?), that OP's 4949 white iPhone found in the bathroom was the one the police couldn't access (it was the 0020 iPhone that disappeared), that Reeva had been hit by the cricket bat (Cecil Myers saw no evidence when he identified Reeva and the post mortem did not confirm this)... I could go on! None of this was ever presented as actual evidence either at the bail hearing or the trial as far as I'm aware. It's probably all media fantasy.

Yes the media made a hash of it. What was funny too was the interview with a police woman on the scene who reported they had been called to the residence before this incident. But on reflection, imo, she meant back in 2009 about Taylor-Memmory door jamming incident. But many believed it was only an hour or two before OP shot Reeva.

Here is a tweet by OP bragging about his aiming skills. :scared:


Spent the afternoon at the Tormezzo Italian Shooting range. Had a 96% headshot over 300m from 50shots! Bam! lockerz.com/s/160337437

— Oscar Pistorius (@OscarPistorius) November 28, 2011

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...578161509?nk=2729dc394cad83de08b9f20d5eaf2142

 

[Val1]

Considering the assault charge re Taylor-Memmory from 2009, that's for sure! I wonder if his threats in Nov/12 came before or after he'd applied ... another thing to add to my list of things to check.:/

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/9716493/Oscar-Pistorius-settles-in-2009-assault-case

That was easy, according to lisasalinger's page:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

Oscar needed a special collector’s license to own this many weapons and applied for licenses to own these guns on January 22, 2013

That raises another possible reason for OP's "*****ty" mood, perhaps his application had been turned down and he was going to lose his deposit on that order of guns and ammo? That would explain the temporary monetary loss comment as well as being a "*****ty" thing to have happened to such a "nice" guy...

 

[Mr Fossil]

True enough but where did the ideas for some of those stories come from, I believe most of them had some truth to them otherwise you can bet Uncle Arnold would have sued for liable or whatever asap. As for the trophies, those could have easily been cleaned up by Frank, OP's family, lawyer, any of the 3 Stander's that were there, let alone any of the police that may have been fans of his. As for the phone, someone must have told them something, how else would they have known alot of that info. Poor Mr.Myers... I doubt he would have noticed the bruises that were determined as unrelated to the gunshots and as for the bloodied bat, many would have come to the same conclusion that the blood on it must have come from RS. Don't forget, most of these early stories were before the autopsy and even the bail hearing so someone talked somewhere, just like someone took pics of the crime scene and then sold them to Sky News. As for not being presented as evidence, Nel didn't present any argument about what happened after the murder, his whole case was simply to prove that OP had murdered RS with intent and anything that didn't relate directly to that just didn't matter to him... much to our dissatisfaction.

I think if trophies had been found strewn and broken, or Reeva's car had been moved, was open, engine running, or Reeva had other injuries consistent with a fight beforehand Nel would have used any or all of this to support his case that they had been arguing, she was leaving, whatever. This was all supposedly before the murder.

 

[Mr Fossil]

That was easy, according to lisasalinger's page:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/


That raises another possible reason for OP's "*****ty" mood, perhaps his application had been turned down and he was going to lose his deposit on that order of guns and ammo? That would explain the temporary monetary loss comment as well as being a "*****ty" thing to have happened to such a "nice" guy...

His applications were cancelled 4 days after killing Reeva (from same article).

The weapons were never delivered, the transaction was cancelled about one month after killing Reeva (from Rens testimony). So I doubt the question of loss of deposit could have come up on 13 Feb.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I am exploring the scenario that OP did not run downstairs to open the front door or turn on the kitchen light or return and attempt to force open the secondary bedroom door after calling NetCare (or Baba). I don't think there was time. What if the doors and the light(s) were already in that state and needed to be worked into OP's version?

He says to Roux in his EIC "I could barely pick Reeva up. I wouldn’t have been able to open the doors and carry her so I ran ... I opened my bedroom door, umm, and I opened the front door." This makes sense. So:

1. Why didn't he unlatch the secondary bedroom door on the way out of the bedroom rather than the ridiculous story of trying to force it open before unlatching it on the way back? The sequence isn't ideal (but not necessarily wrong), however the action is nonsensical and it wastes time.

2. Stander says to Nel there were "lights on in the house at the bottom" when he arrives. Carice says to Nel "the kitchen light was on" when they arrive. Why turn on the kitchen light? It wastes time going to the kitchen.

3. Carice says when she arrives that "the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately." The door appears to open outwards so I'm guessing he could have pushed it fully open when he carried Reeva through it. But how was he going to unlock and open the car door whilst carrying Reeva? He seems to have forgotten this in his version. Shame Nel didn't explore this. I assume his car key is with the front door key that he retrieved from on the speaker.

I think the lights were left on because they had both been downstairs at some point. Maybe the front door was left open when Reeva opened it to leave and OP stopped her? And maybe the bedroom door was forced because Reeva had locked him out of the room (hence the damage to the edge of the door)?

i would agree that the door was already open [maybe never locked at all that night] and the downstairs lights were already on [maybe had never been switched off that night].

re: your point 1 and your exploration...
you might be interested to look at the state of the secondary bedroom door lower latch in the police photo. still locked i believe?
methinks the ridiculous barging story was to cover the op/rs altercation at that door.

re: point 3
carice and a door that opens outwards.
"the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately."
does the front door actually open outwards?
it is strange description to make, if the door opens outwards... surely it would be possible to 'see' it was open. and i would expect her to use the word 'pull' somewhere in a description of opening an outward opening door. why say 'as i touched the door' - that statement would better describe a door that opens inwards.
carice was a very friendly witness for the defence.

a couple of other things re: doors/the house/aftermath.
1. many mentions of 'my house' by oscar during his evidence. i think he was very proud of that house, and that it was very much 'his' and things there were done his way.
2. op mentions that the door was 'locked' when he arrived back that night... would he have liked being locked out?

3. how could carice/johan standar/baba et al see op at the top of the stairs if the hallway/downstairs light was off? it had to be on.

4. absence is sometimes telling. if op had switched lights on AFTER taking reeva's body out from the toilet [upstairs tv room light (on in photo)/stairway light/kitchen light/hallway light ... etc], his hands were surely covered in blood. it follows then, that the light switches would have also been covered in blood. if these lights were on and switches were NOT covered in blood, then it follows that the lights were on pre- the removal of the body.

 

[Val1]

His applications were cancelled 4 days after killing Reeva (from same article).

Yes, but that doesn't mean he hadn't been notified that that was about to happen, correct?

 

[Val1]

Only if he could prove it, otherwise what would be the point? As you say, no pics since it either didn't happen or had been cleaned up before the photographer got there, the vehicle/s could have been due to what I suggested or at least no way to prove anything else, as for RS's other injuries... I suppose the gunshots would trump the bruises as for whether OP had hurt her... correct?

 

[sleuth-d-]

That was easy, according to lisasalinger's page:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/


That raises another possible reason for OP's "*****ty" mood, perhaps his application had been turned down and he was going to lose his deposit on that order of guns and ammo? That would explain the temporary monetary loss comment as well as being a "*****ty" thing to have happened to such a "nice" guy...

View attachment 58070

also re: the order...
'smith and wesson mod 60 38 spl'

ammo found in the safe... was it .38?

coincidences, coincidences.

 

[Mr Fossil]

i would agree that the door was already open [maybe never locked at all that night] and the downstairs lights were already on [maybe had never been switched off that night].

re: your point 1 and your exploration...
you might be interested to look at the state of the secondary bedroom door lower latch in the police photo. still locked i believe?
methinks the ridiculous barging story was to cover the op/rs altercation at that door.

re: point 3
carice and a door that opens outwards.
"the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately."
does the front door actually open outwards?
it is strange description to make, if the door opens outwards... surely it would be possible to 'see' it was open. and i would expect her to use the word 'pull' somewhere in a description of opening an outward opening door. why say 'as i touched the door' - that statement would better describe a door that opens inwards.
carice was a very friendly witness for the defence.

a couple of other things re: doors/the house/aftermath.
1. many mentions of 'my house' by oscar during his evidence. i think he was very proud of that house, and that it was very much 'his' and things there were done his way.
2. op mentions that the door was 'locked' when he arrived back that night... would he have liked being locked out?

3. how could carice/johan standar/baba et al see op at the top of the stairs if the hallway/downstairs light was off? it had to be on.

4. absence is sometimes telling. if op had switched lights on AFTER taking reeva's body out from the toilet [upstairs tv room light (on in photo)/stairway light/kitchen light/hallway light ... etc], his hands were surely covered in blood. it follows then, that the light switches would have also been covered in blood. if these lights were on and switches were NOT covered in blood, then it follows that the lights were on pre- the removal of the body.

BIB1 It certainly looks to be



BIB 2 It would help my argument if they opened inwards as he should have opened them wide. However, when I look at the door handles on the outside of the house they look like the type that you pull. I need to find a pic of the door actually open.



Photo thanks to Juror#13

BIB3 And more bloody footprints up and down the stairs?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Example of bail pending appeal being denied after conviction:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2013/sca2013-001.pdf

Unfortunately in OP's case, he does fit the criteria, it appears OP is in a much better circumstance than YB, so could be granted bail. :gaah: What I've taken and compared from your link ty, eimajjj,

1. It was in OP's favour taking the stand and being cross examined, YB gave testimony by affidavit only.

2. YB can only put up R20,000 bail which is insufficient to secure her not leave to the country, plus she's unemployed, OP comes from a family of great wealth, his family can guarantee a much larger sum.

3. YB lives with her fiance, the court believes they could break up. :thinking: OP has a secure home with his Uncle and Aunty.

4. YB has failed to disclose her financial situation, which I'm pretty sure OP has. :thinking:

Good one. I tried to find a white murderer to compare but was unsuccessful. Did you have any luck? I know it should not matter but, sadly, it does still matter whether one is black or white in SA, even though this problem is definitely improving.

It is definitely improving but I don't understand these 'invisible' servants, its seems comparable to illegal aliens. Makes it difficult when or if they are witness to a crime. OP seemed to value Frank and his housekeeping skills, which was nice to learn.

 

[Cherwell]

I would like to know whatever happened to the report that OP's car was already unlocked and running early that morning, so unless the Stander's had testified on their affidavits that this was either false or that they were the ones to have done so(I seem to recall Stander at some point having told the security to make sure there weren't a bunch of vehicles in the driveway, whether that was for emergency services or to reduce attention?)

I wonder it this was in fact the Standers' car, perhaps they jumped out quickly without turning off the engine at first. Could have been an early misapprehension by someone on the scene that got picked up by the media.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

OP left this gaping hole in his downstairs window for months?! :facepalm:

Just shows how close the neighbours were while OP and Reeva, cooking, eating, arguing? :thinking:

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...nkamp-was-killed/story-fndir2ev-1227040036666

 

[Mr Fossil]

BIB1 It certainly looks to be

BIB 2 It would help my argument if they opened inwards as he should have opened them wide. However, when I look at the door handles on the outside of the house they look like the type that you pull. I need to find a pic of the door actually open.

BIB3 And more bloody footprints up and down the stairs?

I now see that the doors have the same handles on both sides. Unless you live in Scandinavia or other places with heavy snow, isn't it normal for front doors to open inwards? This means that it's another inconsistency in OP's story ... why didn't he open them wide?

http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2014/08/exclusive-oscars-footsteps/ @ 1:40

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM

4. absence is sometimes telling. if op had switched lights on AFTER taking reeva's body out from the toilet [upstairs tv room light (on in photo)/stairway light/kitchen light/hallway light ... etc], his hands were surely covered in blood. it follows then, that the light switches would have also been covered in blood. if these lights were on and switches were NOT covered in blood, then it follows that the lights were on pre- the removal of the body.

Great deduction, just wish we had access to all the crime scene photos , we can only surmise there was no blood on switches unfortunately.