Three critical questions

[txsvicki]

So the brown work glove consistent fibers were found on pretty much everything associated with the murder.

 

[Detective Pinkie]

Thanks for making that more clear UKGuy.

I guess in my head most of the scenarios involved JR being asleep and woken to help "fix" things so he wouldn't have it on. I never imagined JR would be wearing the shirt at the time and would take it off to wipe down JBR. It does add an interesting dimension if this is what happened.

Is it possible nobody thought about fibers at the time and what they could tell the police? It just seems odd to go through all that staging and then wipe her down with their own clothing.

 

[txsvicki]

If the person wearing brown work gloves also got the shirt fibers in the crotch of the panties he might have accidentally brushed the panties with his shirt sleeve or even rubbed his shirtt with the gloved hands then transferring both. OR the person wearing the gloves could have touched the person wearing the shirt, or handled the shirt and then handled the panties. Maybe the work glove consistent fibers can give alot of clues since the stagers seemed to be more worried about fingerprints and less careful about fibers.

 

[Chrishope]

Thanks for making that more clear UKGuy.

I guess in my head most of the scenarios involved JR being asleep and woken to help "fix" things so he wouldn't have it on. I never imagined JR would be wearing the shirt at the time and would take it off to wipe down JBR. It does add an interesting dimension if this is what happened.

Is it possible nobody thought about fibers at the time and what they could tell the police? It just seems odd to go through all that staging and then wipe her down with their own clothing.

Strikes me as odd too. Given that an intruder/kidnapper scenario is being staged, and the kidnappers wouldn't have access to JR's shirt, unless it were in the laundry, or left out somewhere. A towel would be more likely.

Then of course there's the question, why would a kidnapper/murderer wipe her down at all?

 

[neesaki]

There is not one single shred of evidence implicating Burke in any aspect of this crime. If we rule out an intruder, and I think everyone here does, then the most likely candidate by far is John Ramsey, because the clear signs of sexual molestation cannot be ignored, and because we know very well that John has lied about many aspects of the case. If you must see Patsy as a collaborator, fine. But for God's sake, how can you ignore John?

Kolar decided to give both John and Patsy a pass, because they were "good Christians" in his eyes, and thus incapable of such a heinous crime. Yet he had no trouble assigning them truly gruesome roles in the coverup, despite their sterling Christian qualities. He winds up quoting Lou Smit on their behalf and then informs us that no one can be prosecuted anyhow, because Burke was too young and there's a statute of limitations. And your still taking this guy seriously?

Why?

IDK, but I just can not see JR hitting his little girl over the head with a flashlight. Just doesn't seem to fit, though this is JMO. I mean, why would he do that?

I've always thought the signs of molestation described as "digital penetration", sounded, seemed, more like something a child would do, aka BR? They did like to play "doctor" IIRC.

Kolar brings out that some of the marks and bruises on Jon Benet's neck and throat were caused by someone grabbing the collar of her shirt and twisting it around her neck, then the scratches were caused by her own fingernails, when she reached up to try to loosen the collar from her neck. This was the first I had heard about this. Which makes it sound as though it was more than just a single impulsive act of a blow to the head, or so it sounds? :waitasec: That's as far as I've gotten in the book so far so don't know if he elaborates further on this or offers any additional information.

 

[txsvicki]

Wow, i never caught that in previous posts about kolar actually saying there were scratches on the neck from the twisting shirt collar.

 

[midwest mama]

Wow, i never caught that in previous posts about kolar actually saying there were scratches on the neck from the twisting shirt collar.

Just to clarify: Kolar book, pg 56, photo 8 with this description:
"Neck abrasions and garotte. The triangular shaped bruise was thought to have been caused by the twisting of JonBenet's shirt while tightened around her neck. Note the other lower abrasions, and suspected fingernail marks above the cord. Source: Boulder PD Case File/Internet

 

[neesaki]

Wow, i never caught that in previous posts about kolar actually saying there were scratches on the neck from the twisting shirt collar.

I don't know that it's been posted here as I haven't had a chance to go through the entire thread. It's from Kolar's book that I'm presently in the process of reading.

I know, I think it's strange that it hasn't been given more attention. I think it's more than just a minor detail that could change the scenario completely, imo.

 

[rashomon]

Kolar brings out that some of the marks and bruises on Jon Benet's neck and throat were caused by someone grabbing the collar of her shirt and twisting it around her neck, then the scratches were caused by her own fingernails, when she reached up to try to loosen the collar from her neck. This was the first I had heard about this. Which makes it sound as though it was more than just a single impulsive act of a blow to the head, or so it sounds? :waitasec: That's as far as I've gotten in the book so far so don't know if he elaborates further on this or offers any additional information.

The theory that the grabbing and twisting of the shirt collar caused the marks on JonBenet's neck is not new.
It is from forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz, and was presented in Steve Thomas's book published twelve years ago (p. 228/229 hardcover edition, 2000).

As for the alleged "fingernail scratches" - wasn't this a myth Lou Smith propagated to support his intruder theory?
These marks look more than broken blood vessels to me, but I'm a medical layperson. TIA to anyone with medical knowledge (e. g. DeeDee?) for their assessment.

*** Warning - autopsy photo! *** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

IDK, but I just can not see JR hitting his little girl over the head with a flashlight. Just doesn't seem to fit, though this is JMO. I mean, why would he do that?

I've always thought the signs of molestation described as "digital penetration", sounded, seemed, more like something a child would do, aka BR? They did like to play "doctor" IIRC.

Kolar brings out that some of the marks and bruises on Jon Benet's neck and throat were caused by someone grabbing the collar of her shirt and twisting it around her neck, then the scratches were caused by her own fingernails, when she reached up to try to loosen the collar from her neck. This was the first I had heard about this. Which makes it sound as though it was more than just a single impulsive act of a blow to the head, or so it sounds? :waitasec: That's as far as I've gotten in the book so far so don't know if he elaborates further on this or offers any additional information.

neesaki,
Now if confirmed as a possibility, then it actually makes the sequence of events more explicable.

Since I've always thought that a direct response during an episode of molestation which is to whack someone over the head as, well curious.

More likely is some kind of manual restraint, e.g. smothering or collar restriction. Followed up with a head bash as staging, so to explain away the coma JonBenet is now in?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Also, the piece of 'birefringent material' (= cellulose) originating from the paintbrush was found in exactly the same location where the acute genital wound had been inflicted.


A fiber from the jacket Patsy had been wearing to the Whites' was found in the paint tray; another fiber was found the nylong wrappings around the broken paintbrush handle.
Imo this links her to the staging of both the sexual assault and asphyxiation scene.


Far more likely scenario imo.
I can see Burke delivering the head blow, but not as the stager of the scene.

I can't see John doing that to implicate himself. Can anyone?
I can't even see these fibers having gotten there accidentally as he was trying to help Patsy stage the scene.
Now we don't know how many of those fibers were found. If it was just one or two, they might somehow have ended up in the size 12s as he put them on JonBenet.
But maybe the fibers had been on JB's genitals before, were not wiped off completely, and some were then found in the size 12s.
But in that case, the only explanation I have is that they got there via sexual contact.

Question to those who have already read Kolar's book: does he address the fiber evidence from John's shirt?

rashomon,
You make some good points, particularly on the fibers.

Also, the piece of 'birefringent material' (= cellulose) originating from the paintbrush was found in exactly the same location where the acute genital wound had been inflicted.

Its not a done deal, but it looks close.

Now we don't know how many of those fibers were found. If it was just one or two, they might somehow have ended up in the size 12s as he put them on JonBenet.

Lets say more than ten, they were comingled with JonBenet's blood deposited in her labia. Absolutely no accident or any form of secondary transfer. The only question to resolve is was it JR who used the shirt?


.

 

[txsvicki]

One doctor said that the labia of a child have to be manually separated, and it seems like that was done to clean/wipe jonbenet. A gloved hand could have been used which had just before rubbed against the shirt? I wonder where on the body the brown fibers were found.

 

[BOESP]

Strikes me as odd too. Given that an intruder/kidnapper scenario is being staged, and the kidnappers wouldn't have access to JR's shirt, unless it were in the laundry, or left out somewhere. A towel would be more likely.

Then of course there's the question, why would a kidnapper/murderer wipe her down at all?

They wouldn't. This is a major piece of behavioral evidence pointing away from an Intruder.

 

[rashomon]

Kolar definitely doesn’t mention any fiber evidence relating to JR’s shirt.

Section of the Aug 9/2000 interview where John Ramsey was confronted with the fiber evidence originating from his shirt:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm [bolding and John Ramseys answers italicized by me)

0053

2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, during
3 the evening of December 25th, was there a
4 time when either, after JonBenet got dressed
5 to leave for the White's house or while she
6 was at the White's house or after you came
7 home from the White's house, she had any
8 problems going to the bathroom or problems
9 with her clothes that you may have helped
10 her with?

11 A. [John Ramsey] don't remember. I really do
12 not.

13 Q. If I may follow --

14 A. It is possible. I don't know.

15 Q. If I can follow it up just to
16 clarify, when you say you don't remember,
17 does that mean, as you sit here today, your
18 best recollection is no or you don't know
19 yes or no?

20 A. I don't remember. It was three
21 and a half years ago.

22 Q. I understand that. I was just
23 trying to clarify your answer.

24 A. I don't know. I just don't
25 remember.
0054
1 Q. One way or the other?

2 A. One way or the other.

<...>

0057

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs [sic - probably a transcription mistake because its about fibers] that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --

2 A. [John Ramsey] B******t. I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --

5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --

7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.

In the same interview (section 0052) John was also asked whether he owned work gloves.

 

[UKGuy]

Section of the Aug 9/2000 interview where John Ramsey was confronted with the fiber evidence originating from his shirt:
In the same interview (section 0052) John was also asked whether he owned work gloves.

rashomon,
Sometimes you have to wonder. Initially JR said, paraphrasing, it has to be an inside job.

Then when confronted with irrefutable evidence, he comes up with:

If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.

It is disgusting, but his fibers were found in JonBenet's labia, something that in religious terminology is disgraceful, JR likes his religion anyone picked up on that yet?

.

 

[cynic]

Section of the Aug 9/2000 interview where John Ramsey was confronted with the fiber evidence originating from his shirt:
In the same interview (section 0052) John was also asked whether he owned work gloves.

I am aware of the interview and the line of questioning, but Kolar addresses fiber evidence from PR in a very detailed and unambiguous fashion. I didn’t and still don’t consider the single paragraph that was intended to explain the early mistake of thinking that the smears along JBR’s upper thighs was semen rather than blood as addressing fiber evidence relating to John’s shirt which is the question that you had asked.

Question to those who have already read Kolar's book: does he address the fiber evidence from John's shirt?

An alternate light source (ALS) was used to scan JonBenét’s body in search of other trace evidence and fluids. The area around her upper thighs illuminated traces of fluid and indications that she may have been wiped clean with some type of cloth. Investigators thought perhaps that the fluid source reacting to the ALS was semen, but swabbing’s of the area would later be determined to be a smear of blood.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 58

 

[cynic]

As for the alleged "fingernail scratches" - wasn't this a myth Lou Smith propagated to support his intruder theory?
These marks look more than broken blood vessels to me, but I'm a medical layperson. TIA to anyone with medical knowledge (e. g. DeeDee?) for their assessment.

*** Warning - autopsy photo! *** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg

You are quite right, this was pure Lou Smit fantasy, he was seeing what he wanted to see. The coroner who wasn&#8217;t looking at pictures but rather the neck of JonBenet as she lay on the autopsy table in front of him said that that was petechial hemorrhaging.
There is NO mention of scratches in the autopsy report.

From the autopsy report:
A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eighth of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches.
[SNIP]
The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eighth of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck.

 

[BOESP]

rashomon,
Sometimes you have to wonder. Initially JR said, paraphrasing, it has to be an inside job.

Then when confronted with irrefutable evidence, he comes up with:

It is disgusting, but his fibers were found in JonBenet's labia, something that in religious terminology is disgraceful, JR likes his religion anyone picked up on that yet?

.

ITA. I am still wondering why he published another book, aside from the income factor.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Sometimes you have to wonder. Initially JR said, paraphrasing, it has to be an inside job.

Maybe John's "inside job" comment that he made to Arndt after he 'discovered' JonBenet's body was an attempt to throw under the bus those who were familiar with the Ramseys and their home, like. e. g. the housekeeper?

It is disgusting, but his fibers were found in JonBenet's labia, something that in religious terminology is disgraceful, JR likes his religion anyone picked up on that yet?

Does there exist a source where it says that the fibers from JR's shirt were found in the labia? For Levin (who asked John about them) only says that those fibers were found in the crotch area of the size 12s JonBenet thad been dressed in.

 

[Chrishope]

Maybe John's "inside job" comment that he made to Arndt after he 'discovered' JonBenet's body was an attempt to throw under the bus those who were familiar with the Ramseys and their home, like. e. g. the housekeeper?

Sure. By that stage of the game he'd already assured the police that all the doors were locked, and the police had verified that. He'd also told them he'd broken the widow back in the summer when he forgot his key. An "inside job" was the only rationale he had left.