Three critical questions

[eileenhawkeye]

Kolar was raising the same question! In Kolar book, he was describing this episode when JR asked about the golf clubs. What I found (for the first time!!!) that the golf bag was NOT given to Pam by police. So, JR never got them back and LE has them. This info was first time mentioned in Kolar's book. I'm telling you, Kolar's book is really something. Just wondering, why didn't we hear anything in media...nothing, like someone purposely put the 'gag' on it....:banghead:

I know the Ramseys have high-powered attorneys, but the media is a trillion-dollar "corporation" and I find it unlikely that they wouldn't give Kolar any airtime. I think it's more likely that Kolar does not want to do a "John Ramsey-style book tour" because it would increase his chances of being sued. He also said that he isn't looking for publicity, and I noticed that he has only done print and radio interviews. He's a police chief in Colorado, and it might not be easy for him to do an entire press tour. Lastly, I think that if Kolar had been attempting to do more interviews but was being ignored, we would hear about it.

 

[OpenMind4U]

otg,

BRAVO!!!!!!! GREAT analysis and perfect explanation. As usual - you're the BEST!....Now, when all of us understand in which 'country' we are - traveling to the South...what's your take on the wapon which cause such a damage? By knowing JBR's hight (47"), assuming that the blow was delivered on the BACK while she was standing and assuming that her attacker was taller than JBR - is it possible to assum the following:

- the blow was NOT delivered by 'up-down' motion?;
- IF blow was delivered by 'side-to-side' motion THEN oval shape fructure would be in HORISONTAL direction (taking your analogy: from east/west)?;
- IF blow was done by the golf club with 'side-to-side' motion THEN the shape of the damage would be much different?

So, what's you opinion: what kind of wapon was used to make VERTICAL injury on the BACK of JBR head at approx 40" from the floor?...

 

[midwest mama]

otg,

BRAVO!!!!!!! GREAT analysis and perfect explanation. As usual - you're the BEST!....Now, when all of us understand in which 'country' we are - traveling to the South...what's your take on the wapon which cause such a damage? By knowing JBR's hight (47"), assuming that the blow was delivered on the BACK while she was standing and assuming that her attacker was taller than JBR - is it possible to assum the following:

- the blow was NOT delivered by 'up-down' motion?;
- IF blow was delivered by 'side-to-side' motion THEN oval shape fructure would be in HORISONTAL direction (taking your analogy: from east/west)?;
- IF blow was done by the golf club with 'side-to-side' motion THEN the shape of the damage would be much different?

So, what's you opinion: what kind of wapon was used to make VERTICAL injury on the BACK of JBR head at approx 40" from the floor?...

Is it possible JB was on her hands and knees, much like a "pet" would be if she were "leashed" in the ligature cord? That position would have also allowed for a sexual probing with an object (paintbrush) that she wasn't expecting, causing her to scream out. She might have even fainted from the pain, placing her flat against the floor, face down. Then, a head blow to her skull from a standing position over her with a golf club swung much like an ax chop could have been very forceful.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Is it possible JB was on her hands and knees, much like a "pet" would be if she were "leashed" in the ligature cord? That position would have also allowed for a sexual probing with an object (paintbrush) that she wasn't expecting, causing her to scream out. She might have even fainted from the pain, placing her flat against the floor, face down. Then, a head blow to her skull from a standing position over her with a golf club swung much like an ax chop could have been very forceful.

hmmmm....good thought...possible...but if JBR is laying face down and someone is in 'standing position over her with golf club swung much an ax chop' then the head injury will be on the back but more to the TOP of her head, isn't?....not to the bottom of the BACK?....Plus, IMO, if such a blow would be delivered while JBR is laying face down, I would think some damages would be done to her neck as well...I don't know! I really don't know. I'm looking forward to hear from otg and/or dd on it....I have many variations in my 'fantasy world' and everyone is getting uglier and uglier...

 

[ciela]

I believe if this started as "playing pet" (pony or puppy) Jonbenet would have willingly allowed a rope to be placed around her neck. As I said elsewhere, if she resisted or didnt follow script, the other party would have been angered perhaps choking her unconscious and face down. Children sometimes play the pony game and ride on the back of the other child. Golf clubs nearby ... grab one and from a standing position swing the club to deliver the fatal blow. The length of the shaft would have provided the physics to increase momentum to crack her skull. Of course this is speculation on my part but I'm trying to imagine a believable scenario.

 

[UKGuy]

That would be me.

I "asked" rhetorically. In fact, there was NO good reason for him to ask for those clubs. December is not golf season in Colorado, and when they headed to Atlanta it was for JB's funeral. I would think he'd have other priorities.

DeeDee249,
According to OpenMind4U Kolar says the golf-clubs are in some evidence cage?

Now if this is the case, where did the size-6 underwear disappear to?



.

 

[UKGuy]

I believe if this started as "playing pet" (pony or puppy) Jonbenet would have willingly allowed a rope to be placed around her neck. As I said elsewhere, if she resisted or didnt follow script, the other party would have been angered perhaps choking her unconscious and face down. Children sometimes play the pony game and ride on the back of the other child. Golf clubs nearby ... grab one and from a standing position swing the club to deliver the fatal blow. The length of the shaft would have provided the physics to increase momentum to crack her skull. Of course this is speculation on my part but I'm trying to imagine a believable scenario.

ciela,
Could be, but how do you factor in the sexual assault. Thats the bit that has always got me, e.g. molestation, whack on head, asphyxiation.

Why would a relative whack another relative on the head during some sex play?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

ciela,
Could be, but how do you factor in the sexual assault. Thats the bit that has always got me, e.g. molestation, whack on head, asphyxiation.

Why would a relative whack another relative on the head during some sex play?
.

- RAGE for non-obedience?
- SCARE to be cought/punished?
- LOCK of control emotions?
- ALL OF THE ABOVE???

 

[UKGuy]

- RAGE for non-obedience?
- SCARE to be cought/punished?
- LOCK of control emotions?
- ALL OF THE ABOVE???

OpenMind4U,
That sounds familiar, so JonBenet stopped playing some game and whack!



.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
That sounds familiar, so JonBenet stopped playing some game and whack!



.

Yes, very possible...but we need to modify your sentence a little bid, would you mind?....

'JonBenet stopped playing some game BECAUSE IT WENT TOO FAR (it hirts now!), SHE SCREAMS, STARTS RUNNING AWAY...and whack!'....

...looks better?.....

 

[ciela]

ciela,
Could be, but how do you factor in the sexual assault. Thats the bit that has always got me, e.g. molestation, whack on head, asphyxiation.

Why would a relative whack another relative on the head during some sex play?


.

She resisted/screamed when it went too far. If we cant believe that then we are back to IDI. One would have to believe BR was capable of it. Im still on the fence just entertaining possible scenarios.

 

[UKGuy]

She resisted/screamed when it went too far. If we cant believe that then we are back to IDI. One would have to believe BR was capable of it. Im still on the fence just entertaining possible scenarios.

ciela,
No, not really, I did mention relative. I have no doubt at all that an R was involved, to date there has been no smoking gun.

But it looks like Kolars book is offering new avenues to explore, e.g. BDI.




.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, very possible...but we need to modify your sentence a little bid, would you mind?....

'JonBenet stopped playing some game BECAUSE IT WENT TOO FAR (it hirts now!), SHE SCREAMS, STARTS RUNNING AWAY...and whack!'....

...looks better?.....

OpenMind4U,
I have no doubt it must have been something like this. Last time I remember someone whacking someone during an assault was Ted Bundy, he would put his arm in a fake plaster cast and ask women to help him carry something to his car.

.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
I have no doubt it must have been something like this. Last time I remember someone whacking someone during an assault was Ted Bundy, he would put his arm in a fake plaster cast and ask women to help him carry something to his car.

.

Yes, Ted Bundy was pro, he knows human psychology....The same were the River Killers and many-many other Serial Killers. They were PRO. Means, they've done it again and again and again. In JBR case, I'll repeat what Douglas said (I lost respect of him on how he handle this case, but this man was/is one of the best profiler in FBI): 'The person who did it is one-time 'attacker'. He is NOT gonna do it again'.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

That looks quite impressive. I still think the bat is on the candidate list, e.g. hit side on, instead of flat, but I'll put a golf club at the top.

Now who was it that asked why JR requested his golf-clubs in the middle of winter?






.

I asked if they had "golf" season in Atlanta a few weeks ago. There sure are a lot of golf clubs around that house isn't there? Two golf bags in the basement. Clubs in a closet and one found outside on the north west side of the house.

 

[midwest mama]

Yes, Ted Bundy was pro, he knows human psychology....The same were the River Killers and many-many other Serial Killers. They were PRO. Means, they've done it again and again and again. In JBR case, I'll repeat what Douglas said (I lost respect of him on how he handle this case, but this man was/is one of the best profiler in FBI): 'The person who did it is one-time 'attacker'. He is NOT gonna do it again'.

There was also this information about the disorder connected to Burke which Kolar includes in his book(pg375)..."evidence suggested that the bulk of children diagnosed with SBP were at a very low risk for committing future sex offenses, especially when provided with appropriate treatment."

IMO, even if Burke was not the only one molesting JB previously, he could have been involved that night in some manner, during which time he felt the need to inflict the head blow - even if he was not the one responsible for the vaginal trauma that caused the bleeding noted by the coroner. The trauma to JB which caused the vaginal bleeding could have been done purely as an act of staging to just to cover up the signs of previous abuse.

 

[OpenMind4U]

restpectfully skip

The trauma to JB which caused the vaginal bleeding could have been done purely as an act of staging to just to cover up the signs of previous abuse.

MM, but IF it's true then we must explain the following:
- Why wipe the blood out?!
- Why clean-up and redress JBR?!
- Where is JBR original panty?!
- Where is the brush or woodstick or any other 'tool' which made this acute injury?! Does missing end of 'garrotte' was part of acute injury?!

Like you said, the purpose of the 'staging' is to 'cover up the signs of previous abuse', right? And I would agree with you if above questions could be explained.

 

[ciela]

MM, but IF it's true then we must explain the following:
- Why wipe the blood out?!
- Why clean-up and redress JBR?!
- Where is JBR original panty?!
- Where is the brush or woodstick or any other 'tool' which made this acute injury?! Does missing end of 'garrotte' was part of acute injury?!

Like you said, the purpose of the 'staging' is to 'cover up the signs of previous abuse', right? And I would agree with you if above questions could be explained.

I doubt the police dug up any of the flower beds in the yard. The items could be anywhere - plenty of time to get rid of them.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I don't know about you guys and girls, but I feel like in the room with the three corners: PR, JR, BR...and I'm staying at each corner and trying to see the whole room in perspective and of course my view is not fully clear. I do wish this room has 4 corners. Not IDI, but some kind of possibility of JR, or PR, or BR secretly opened the front door to 'someone' (friend? lover? relative?) on that horrible night. Something is really missing for me...We have all these facts in 3 different categories: PRIOR, CURRENT and STAGING.

PRIOR
- SEX (JBR molestation)
- pathological/psychological problem in children JBR/BR (bedwetting, 'pooping', sexual behavior, urinal chronicle 'discomfort', detachment behavior)
CURRENT
- RAGE (lethal head injury)
- SEX (acute injury/escalated molestation)
- ROPE/MURDER (part of Rage? part of Sex? part of Staging?) **** as you can see, this fact can belong to 'staging' as well
STAGING
- RN
- tape
- cleaning
- re-dressing
- hiding
- 'undue'

So....
- if JDI then I have problem with STAGING (RN);
- If PDI then I have problem with PRIOR (SEX/molestation) and CURRENT (SEX, ROPE/MURDER);
- if BDI then I have problem with ROPE/MURDER (no matter in which category). This is the MOST weakest link in BDI theory. Therefore, I do agree with Kolar. Knowledge of the medical history of BR is critical. And what else we don't know??? JMO

 

[UKGuy]

I don't know about you guys and girls, but I feel like in the room with the three corners: PR, JR, BR...and I'm staying at each corner and trying to see the whole room in perspective and of course my view is not fully clear. I do wish this room has 4 corners. Not IDI, but some kind of possibility of JR, or PR, or BR secretly opened the front door to 'someone' (friend? lover? relative?) on that horrible night. Something is really missing for me...We have all these facts in 3 different categories: PRIOR, CURRENT and STAGING.

PRIOR
- SEX (JBR molestation)
- pathological/psychological problem in children JBR/BR (bedwetting, 'pooping', sexual behavior, urinal chronicle 'discomfort', detachment behavior)
CURRENT
- RAGE (lethal head injury)
- SEX (acute injury/escalated molestation)
- ROPE/MURDER (part of Rage? part of Sex? part of Staging?) **** as you can see, this fact can belong to 'staging' as well
STAGING
- RN
- tape
- cleaning
- re-dressing
- hiding
- 'undue'

So....
- if JDI then I have problem with STAGING (RN);
- If PDI then I have problem with PRIOR (SEX/molestation) and CURRENT (SEX, ROPE/MURDER);
- if BDI then I have problem with ROPE/MURDER (no matter in which category). This is the MOST weakest link in BDI theory. Therefore, I do agree with Kolar. Knowledge of the medical history of BR is critical. And what else we don't know??? JMO

OpenMind4U,
This is why BDI is the most consistent theory, since it offers the parents a reason to collude.

It could be PDI with PR engaging in molestation for any number of bizarre psychological reasons, say linked to historic familial abuse?

JR is possible as long as he can persuade Patsy to collude and according to the forensic evidence, actually asphyxiate JonBenet?

BDI is the theory with the least number of holes, but maybe puberty arrived early in the Ramsey household, with JonBenet falling victim to the elder brother syndrome?

Coroner Meyer said there was both digital penetration and sexual contact, later analysis revealed prior chronic molestation. A splinter of wood was found inside JonBenet at autopsy, described as birefringent material.

Was the insertion of say the paintbrush part of the sex play or was it an attempt at staging, thats another bit I'm not certain about?

If you put the whack on the head and the insertion of the paintbrush together, then these do not seem to be the behaviour of an adult, more that of an ignorant child?


.