Three critical questions

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DeeDee249,
Thanks for that. So can we assume someone removed something from that area around her neck after she was asphyxiated?


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No. Nothing was removed. The cord was in place until it was cut off by the coroner. If there had been something else that had made a mark on JB's neck that needed to be covered, the mark from it would be there as well as the cord marks. I do not believe anything else made a mark on JB except that cord. While we do not have the complete set of autopsy photos, we DO have ones that show a pretty clear view of her neck, front and back. There is NOTHING I see in those photos that lead me to believe that she was strangled with anything else, manually or otherwise. Of course, as with ALL my posts, this is MOO. But if any one here can point out FORENSIC evidence of her being strangled with something other than the cord, I will certainly take a look and possibly revise my opinion. By "forensic evidence" I do not mean the red triangular mark, as these are common in many strangulation victims and do not represent some OTHER method of strangulation apart from the cord.
The large, red triangular mark on the left front of her throat is a common mark found in many strangulation victims. It is pretty grisly, but if you Google it you'll likely see photos showing other victims with the nearly identical mark. There used to be a photo of JB next to another strangling victim and there is the identical large triangular red mark in the "Ruthee's Pages" on ACR. Not sure of it is still there, as Ruthee passed away some years ago and most of her site is no longer available online. Someone here may have it, though.
Sometimes the term "blanching" is confusing. To understand how it works, try it on yourself. In the living, it is not called livor mortis (literal translation-blush, flush or redness of death= where we get the word livid from). Press against your lower leg or arm hard and a white spot will appear under the skin as soon as you pull your finger away. Within seconds, the white spot disappears as the blood rushes back into the tissue. In death, in the EARLY moments after death the white mark appears with the exception that the white mark remains even after what has caused it has been removed.
This is called blanching and the stage of livor mortis is known as Non-Fixed. As livor mortis progresses to the FIXED (non-blanching) stage, the white mark will not appear even under pressure, as the blood is no longer liquid and cannot be pushed away under the skin.
 
Chrishope, I posted this on the FFJ thread to explain my thinking. Hope this helps.

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Thank you all so much for your responses. See, this helps me think, I can't tell you how much. Each of you has given me ideas, and thinking about what you're pondering, little pieces of this puzzle start moving around and some fall into place, as well.

What prompted me to start this thread is I had an epiphany of sorts...or another stupid idea, who knows? :fingers:

I'm looking at the three questions to answer one final, and critical one:

Could Burke have placed JB by the paint tray, where she was strangled, and where she died?

My epiphany is this: there is only one way Burke could have strangled JB by the paint tray, and that's if he felled her right there, in that spot.

I say that because I don't believe Burke could have carried JB. At 45 lbs. at autopsy, Burke would have had some trouble even moving her from, say, the train room to the paint tray.

There were no bruises or scrapes on her body, as far as I've ever seen or as described in the autopsy, which indicated she'd been dragged. So I'm thinking that Burke, at his own height and weight, wouldn't have been able to pick her up and carry her.

I know this isn't anything hard to figure out, but stay with me.

I'll respond to your posts and ideas separately, but in hopes of keeping this idea from getting too complex off the bat, here's the gist of my thoughts:

The only way I can figure out Burke delivering the head blow and also strangling his sister by the paint tray is if he felled her there. Then she would have been in position for what happened at the paint tray, so he didn't need to carry her.

This might fit the evidence. I'm thinking this through.

One problem I have with this is the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

Does that make sense?

So I'm asking Question 1: where did the head blow occur? If it occurred in the basement, outside the cellar room, then Burke could have also been the person to strangle her, as far as physical capability.

But if it happened somewhere else, like in/near her bedroom, where her blood was found on her pillow, where there is a lot of chaos, open drawers, diapers hanging out of a cabinet, a kitchen knife on a laundry machine, then I think we can all agree Burke did not carry JB down two flights of stairs and strangle her 90 minutes later.

That would put Patsy and/or John in the act of strangulation, as the only other two people in the home and with their fibers on the body and murder weapon.

If the head blow happened in the kitchen or another area, same thing. Burke could not carry his sister, I don't believe. So back to Patsy and/or John being the actual killers.

So question 2: what happened in that 90 minutes? I'm trying to picture Burke hanging out, maybe panicking, maybe not, somewhere in the house, his sister dying by the paint tray where he struck her, then an hour and a half later deciding to go strangle her with a ligature.

It was very late for children. They'd been up since before dawn, as well, excitedly opening their presents, playing with their Santa toys, running around with friends in the hood and such, visiting at the Whites, more children, more toys...then they came home and, according to Patsy and John Burke wasn't put to bed until 10 pm.

But the pineapple is that big bugaboo, isn't it? It puts the lie to JB being asleep as she was put to bed, Patsy changing out her jeans for longjohns, etc.

So there's only two ways this could have happened, if there is any truth to what John and Patsy said:

1. JB woke up and Burke got back up, after the parents went to bed.

OR Patsy and John lied and...

2. JB was awake or woke up when they got back home and whatever happened, it went down before anyone went to bed.

If either of the above scenarios happened, and if Burke were the one who struck that blow, unless it happened in the basement, by the paint tray, and Burke roamed around or did whatever until 90 minutes later, when he strangled JB to death there, there is only one other conclusion I can reach:

John and/or Patsy carried JB to the paint tray and strangled her there.

So this leads to Question 3: How did JB get to the paint tray?

This is important because as I'm looking at this, with the timing between the head blow and strangulation established by Dr. Meyer as 90 minutes, and because I am speculating that a child the size of Burke could not carry the dead weight of a limp, 45 lb. body and there were no drag marks on the body, we might reasonably conclude the head blow occurred by the paint tray if Burke was responsible for that and then he would have been in a position to complete the act of strangulation...or...

Patsy and/or John are culpable for the strangulation. Any other scenario except Burke committing the head blow and strangulation by the paint tray implicates John and/or Patsy, whose fibers are all over the body and crime scene, with Patsy's actually tied INTO the ligature, as well.

I'm struggling with how to express my thoughts on this, so I hope this makes sense. If it does, we're down to one scenario where Burke could have committed both violent attacks on his sister. If it doesn't, then look into this smilie :hypno: and repeat 100 times: I never read it...I never read it....

Thoughts?


Going with everyone was still awake or just one parent still up and Burke hitting her in the head, why didn't they call for help then? It was at that point just an accident, so why not call 911 for her? Why make the cold blooded decision to murder her?
 
DeeDee said:
"...with the exception that the white mark remains even after what has caused it has been removed."

Ok, but in the sentence you highlighted yourself, you answered UKGuy's question in stating that something did have or could have been removed in the early moments of death that was causing blanching.... Then she died and the blood no longer could fill the area

We also talked about this - that the blanching can be caused if the body is pressed against something, or has something pressed against it while the person is dying, and the body stays permanently blanched in those areas, and this can tell investigators if a body was moved, etc.... Based on the patterns of the blanching and the lividity....

So she could have had something pressed against / around her neck in that area while she died, causing blanching, and it was there while she died... She may have been moved, or the item removed, or whatever, so there is still a blanching mark we see, but nothing there now...
 
Going with everyone was still awake or just one parent still up and Burke hitting her in the head, why didn't they call for help then? It was at that point just an accident, so why not call 911 for her? Why make the cold blooded decision to murder her?

This has been talked about so much that I feel odd saying it again. When she was hit on the head with a blow severe enough to have made that hole and crack in her skull, she would have IMMEDIATELY collapsed. She would have been rendered IMMEDIATELY unconscious, and likely lapsed into a coma. She would have been in shock- with lowered body temperature and breathing so shallow it may have not been seen.
To them, she was already dead or so close to it that they knew her death was irreversible. They didn't make a cold blooded decision to murder her. They made a decision to cover up the fatal head bash- part of which (the ligature) helped to kill her. MOO. I think we have enough forensic specialists agree that she was not conscious when the ligature was applied, so I can assume that whoever put the ligature on her very still, cool to the touch, apparently not-breathing body thought they were strangling an already dead child. How could parents do this??? Parents do things like this and MUCH worse, to living children.
There was no way a 911 call at that point would not impact the parents (and BR) at that point. A fake kidnapping took them out of the mix (so they thought). Not the first or last time parents have done this- Caylee Anthony was said to be kidnapped too.
 
I haven't read the book, but I'd guess the strangulation would lean towards the organized, especially if the note was written before. Also, it took some planning and organization, to construct the garotte. IMO, it looks lke the killer didn't want to physically put his/her hand on JB to kill her, so the 'distancing' garotte was made.

I think the head bash would be the dis organized.You'd be in a panic trying to help, to shake her awake. Maybe put her on her bed trying to think, then making the choice to end her suffering would be more calmed down organized person.
 
DD,

Thank you for providing the 'blanching' explanation. So, if I understand you correctly it's all about the blood 'thickness' and it's flow. When person dies, blood is not liquids anymore due to the lock of oxygen, right? And because the heart stops pumping, blood is not running through the veins, right? (Sorry, for trying to 'translate' your post in simplistic way). Now, what happens with the people when they're near-death, comatose state with lethal head injury like JBR had? I understand that she still receiving SOME amount of oxygen and her heart is still pumping but not in full power. Does it mean that minimum of oxygen and slow heart pumping could not fill-out on time the depressed area? Means, blood have no time/no proper level of thickness to fill-out the depressed area on her neck and therefore the 'blanching' is still there, and not disappeared? Is it possible?!!!
 
DeeDee said:
"...with the exception that the white mark remains even after what has caused it has been removed.
Ok, but in the sentence you highlighted yourself, you answered UKGuy's question in stating that so mething did have or could have been removed in the early moments of death that was causing blanching.... Then she died and the blood no longer could fill the area.."

We also talked about this - that the blanching can be caused if the body is pressed against something, or has something pressed against it while the person is dying, and the body stays permanently blanched in those areas, and this can tell investigators if a body was moved, etc.... Based on the patterns of the blanching and the lividity....

So she could have had something pressed against / around her neck in that area while she died, causing blanching, and it was there while she died... She may have been moved, or the item removed, or whatever, so there is still a blanching mark we see, but nothing there now...

I am confused by your question, but I'll try again. Nothing could have been removed or it would have made a mark of its own, either red (before death) or white (after death). If there is no item there NOW, there never was one. The only thing that was around her neck was the cord which remained in place until the coroner removed them. The marks on her throat are narrow and match precisely the width of the cord. The cord was too narrow to have covered up anything else, and if anything else was used it would have made its own mark.
The blanching area that we see is from the cord and nothing else.
JB exhibited some areas of blanching on her body, which were seen at the autopsy. There was some white stripy marks on her back which represented wrinkles in her white top and/or in the blanket she was lying on. There was also a single white mark around her neck from the ligature. These marks were caused by something that pressed against her skin with enough pressure to push away blood just under her skin. This can ONLY occur during the blanching non-fixed period of livor mortis, which happens with about 15-20 minutes of death. The marks remained because she was already dead when they were made. BOTH the cord and her shirt were there when the body was found and remained on her till the coroner took them off. If something else had been on her neck WHEN SHE DIED, a mark from that would have been there TOO even if it was removed before her body was brought up and even if they removed it right away. If something else had been used to strangle her BEFORE she died, there would STILL be a mark, but it would be a reddish, bruise-looking mark LIKE THE RED FURROWS we see on her neck in the autopsy. Either way if anything had been removed from her neck, whether it was used to strangle her or to cover up a previous mark, it would have made its OWN mark too.
There was no way there could have been anything else around her neck, no matter when it was removed, that wouldn't have made its own mark, whether the cord was used to cover it up or not.
 
Why do you think that a "proper burial" was so important to whichever Ramsey was the culprit? If they were willing to strangle her with a garrote and penetrate her with a foreign object .... How does the mind reconcile these horrible actions. It boggles my mind!

Pasty was from the south. She'd want a 'proper burial" for several reasons. One would be the sympathy she'd get from friends. There would be the unspoken thought of you did your duty and handed her to God to take care of. Then may be the thought of things hidden away, no one being able to see what happened to her and it's now over and done with and hopefully bring closure. The Ramsey acted like they had that closure.
 
A couple of questions come to mind.

How did he insert a paintbrush into her vagina if she was standing up? If she was already "hanging" then wouldn't the ligature around her neck have already tightened?

I guess I'm just not quite able to "see" what you're thinking.

But a poster at FFJ made an observation that I find intriging: if Burke put he ligature on her, tied it, tied on the paintbrush after breaking it up, why isn't his DNA on it? Kolar said the cord was tested and had unidentified DNA on it, but he said nothing about Burke's being on it.

Just a question. I find it hard to imagine a child his age putting on gloves to do those things, thinking about forensic evidence or such.

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If she'd been hanged then the cord would show marks different than what was found.
 
midwest mama,
Yes its difficult to come down on one side or the other. One minute I'm thinking its all BDI, then I remember Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote. So otg could have it right, and after Burke does some general cleaning up, and moving JonBenet say close to the paint-tote, he then goes and tells his parents, and the rest we can guess?

How involved might Burke have been in any alleged staging with his knife down there, could he have been helping his parents out? e.g. "Hey Burke, fetch a flashlight", "Burke go put fresh batteries in this flashlight", "Burke fetch a knife for me". "Burke fetch a blanket", Burke get some lonhjohns from upstairs"

I would like to make this point. Its obvious, but sometimes only if its highlighted.

When John's fibers are found all over JonBenet's groin and mixed in with the blood, this means its probable John either removed his shirt, or JonBenet was already in a room where he had already removed his shirt!

Which indirectly proves John was awake, presenting him as a stager or the actual person who abused JonBenet, or both!


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Possibilites all. And also, "Burke, get the star/shirt off her spare bed, and a clean pair of bloomies, along with her longjohns". Rifling of cabinet drawers explained. Nine year old wouldn't have paid attention to bloomie size or worried about the messy open drawers, especially being in a rush.

And here goes a looooooonnnnnnnnggg (sorry if absorbing too much space and your time) further commentary on what I see as more possibilities surrounding JB's death:

In order for me to see Burke and JB playing the 'pet game' with the molestation using the paintbrush included, I assume they are in the basement. And I assume JB has either removed her lower body clothing, tossing them aside for the moment (if she is wearing the shirt and the bloomies and long johns) to accommodate the sex play, even if Burke is bullying her, so they would stay cleaner -- or, she is wearing the pink nightgown and another set of undies which got removed and set aside for someone to dispose of later. But, remember the statement made by JR when the pink nightgown ends up in the WC?? -- 'that shouldn't be there'. The undies would have been easy to dispose of, even could have been flushed down the toilet, but the nightgown would have had to be handled differently. During the duress of redressing JB, that nightgown might have easily gotten wrapped up or grabbed up within the white blanket that was eventually used as a wrap (papoose style, according to JR) for her. Disorganization within organization.

Lets picture this - JB is in pink nightgown (you choose the reason why), no undies, has been molested by Burke. He bashed in anger because she screamed and is carrying on, and then first strangulation occurs, whether accidental or intentional, but does not kill her, though she is nearly comatose. During this time delay period while Burke is doing whatever else he's doing, he gets a piece of the train track with the "pokie" ends to see if she responds - has to jab pretty hard and he's still not getting a response. He may have already tried grabbing her and shaking her physically (maybe even around the neck) trying to get a response. He tries a couple of spots with the track- just to make sure. He could have easily accessed her bare skin to prod with the track if she had on the nightgown. TDNA on nightgown identified as BR and PR (more about PR later).

The laundry chute emptied into the basement. If JR had put his shirt down thru the chute before going to bed, it would have been very near for someone to have grabbed to use when cleaning up JB, probably another good nearly "auto" choice of cloth to use for the cleanup, when looking around in a panic for a wiping cloth. That dark, absorbent shirt would have done a good job - hiding blood stains and soaking it up well.

The laundry area would have been the first place either JR or PR might have run to looking for toweling or rags for clean up purposes. I have a clean "rag" stack in a cabinet in my laundry room, and also a basket which holds misc. dirty items as they collect between wash days - usually kitchen towels, etc. If I have a small spill on the floor, I grab an already gently used towel from the basket quite handily for the cleanup. And JR might have navigated toward it quite readily, but Patsy being a mom, could also have had the same inclination. I always try to use dark washcloths and towels when taking care of bloody cleanups of noses, etc. for anyone in my family - saves from ruining the lighter towels (unless I go thru a major soaking process to get the blood out).

:twocents: I choose JR for the final stranglulation, but Patsy for the cleanup because of a mother's natural inclination to that for her child. PR might have removed JB's nightgown at any time here (TDNA), only to shrink away from being able to do any more, then JR could have been the one who redressed JB, accounting for the matching DNA on the two lower pieces of clothing.

Fiber evidence on the clothing JB was wearing when she was 'found', belonging to PR, would have been accounted for since Patsy was most likely the one who took the star/shirt off JB when helping her to get dressed for bed. Or it could have gotten there by transference at a later time during the staging, as could her fiber evidence have gotten on any of the staging items during the process. Even into the knot of the stick/garrote/handle, without her having to be the one to pull the cord to cause the strangulation. Just cradling JB's head at any time prior to the stick being knotted would have put fibers into JB's hair, and all over the ligature.

Here's a thought: all the wondering about Patsy being in the same outfit the morning of. She could have fallen asleep somewhere due to exhaustion the night before; maybe on the bed in JAR's room while she sat a bit while packing some things, maybe in a comfy chair in the sunroom after she'd turned down the lights for a moment's peace after caving in to JB's and Burke's request for a snack because they were both too wired to settle down to bed just yet. Or, even up on her own bed, thinking she had to awaken JB again soon for the toilet, and then so early again for the trip and would just shower and change out then (tell me you haven't done THIS before). If Burke had come to wake them, no matter where Patsy was, she could already be in that same outfit, and during the ensuing chaos, changing clothing would have been the last thing on her mind.

If JR had been asleep, and gone running when awakened, he would most likely have been in his underwear, and after his involvement with most of the staging, would have wanted to shower quickly and get dressed (in blue stripe shirt and khaki's that he was planning to wear on the trip - maybe even had laid out already the night before). If he did this before PR became rattled enough to call 911, no problem greeting French fully clothed. Or, he might have been nearly done showering, starting to dress when PR could stand none of it any longer and called 911. Still enough time to finish dressing. Already partially dressed, he would have had to rush, but could have made it back to the main floor by the time French got there. :hot:, but then :cool:

Patsy calling 911 is a given fact. Several theories why she did, even though she could have been very involved in the murder/staging. Any one of the theories would suffice, and be valid enough for a jury. :moo:

From the time of the 911 call, Patsy evolved into a state of behavior which would have been fueled by great personal anguish (beyond my comprehension), combined with fear, and EXTREME remorse for everything she might have done to JB causing her pain at any time she had been alive, let alone for anything she had to do at the time of her death. I cannot imagine how overcome Patsy would have been as a result of the heinous murder of JB, even if she knew about it every step of the way. The behaviors she exhibited after the 911 call may have been all too real, IMHO. Ever suffer guilt, repentance and nearly unbearable loss all at once???:tears::anguish::noooo::(:panic::bricks:

And I can see JR continuing to respond in all the same manners along all the avenues of theory regarding his involvement, just as have been described to us by several credibile sources. Along with the basic personality that I believe JR possessed of being narcissistic, he had suffered the loss of a child not long before JB. That kind of loss scars emotions. Your wound heals, but you have scars that remain forever - and they are ugly and sometimes are numbing. A person could become calloused to further loss and pain, never allowing themselves that degree of suffering again. Because it would kill your soul...........and you could be capable of anything. Even while you are completely capable of everything. And seen as a stoic pillar of business and society, with such a prominent life and family. And simply must continue to go on just as you seem to always do - quite well, at that. :coldcase:
 
It isn't that hard for me to visualize. There only had to be a few seconds between them. It didn't have to be a scene where she was molested with one hand and bashed with the other. If the weapon was right there (I still believe it was the flashlight) it only would take a few seconds to pick it up and swing it.
One thing that's hard for me, is looking at the pictures, so I haven't seen much, and what I have seen, I didn't exactly study, so my opinions are very limited, to say the least. It's one thing to read about JonBenet's injuries, but a whole other to see her skull, kwim? Anyway, from what I saw, that hole and crack, didn't look like it came from a flashlight bash. Unless somebody grabbed her, and bashed her head in the same place, over and over, it's hard for me to imagine a flashlight inflicting that kind of damage. IMO, for a single bash to cause that kind of damage, the perp would have to be standing a ways back, and be swinging something long and powerful, with all his might...a golf club maybe, or a baseball bat. Yes, JB was little and her skull wasn't as strong as an adult's, but that hole was horrible, and IMO, somebody was either enraged beyond belief, or intent on killing her. Anyway, do we know if she was bashed just once?
 
Another thing about the skull injury...when my daughter was about 3, she turned around, and fell from the top of a swimming pool ladder, and then landed on the concrete, on her forehead. The sound was so enormous, that a man inside the house, with the sliding doors shut, heard it and thought we had cracked open a coconut. Oh my gosh, it has been 20 years, and I can still hear that noise. Anyway, I snatched her up and we hurried to the ER. Honestly, I was expecting horrible news and was a panicked, crying mess. I apologized so much, that the drs took my daughter aside and had her, in her own words, describe what happened. Amazingly, she didn't even get a black eye, and everything was ok. So, I know from experience that kid's skulls are tough, and I can't begin to imagine how much force would be needed to crack and put a hole in one. But from the picture of JonBenet's skull, 'crack' doesn't even come close to describing her injury. More like Hate-filled, Murderous, obliteration...just awful.
 
I have been reading this thread for many years and this is my first comment. From what I can see their house is not that big and it is very untidy...so intruder would have to be some sort of ninja not to make any noise or not to step on some toy or similar or to bump into something since this is unknown theritory for him and to be that patient for up to 90 minutes,,,
p.s. English is not my first language so please excuse me...
 
I have been reading this thread for many years and this is my first comment. From what I can see their house is not that big and it is very untidy...so intruder would have to be some sort of ninja not to make any noise or not to step on some toy or similar or to bump into something since this is unknown theritory for him and to be that patient for up to 90 minutes,,,
p.s. English is not my first language so please excuse me...
Speak up more often, MissMarple. You made a very valid point.

p.s. And don't worry about the language barriers -- this is a very international forum. There are even language barriers at times between the different English speakers (British, American, Australian...).
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This post has been written by 'cynic' on FFJ. . I think the information 'cynic' provided - is very informative!...so, I 'stole' it from FFJ...Enjoy reading!

Who was doing the “Undoing?”
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I’ll start with this:
After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80

Staging coupled with undoing points very strongly to a Ramsey family member; the most likely scenario being an accident followed by guilt resulting in the need for undoing. Staging was then employed in an attempt to mislead investigators.

While it may be argued that certain actions were driven by the need to eliminate or, at least, reduce evidence, I believe that what profilers have characterized as “undoing” was evident in at least the following aspects of the crime scene.
Cleaning (Pelvic area wiped down)
Covering (Wrapped in a blanket)
Comforting (Nightgown, doll)
Redressing (New (oversized) underwear, long johns pulled up)

(The crime also included several elements of staging.)

• What is undoing?

Another concept sometimes encountered in crime scene analysis is undoing. Undoing is a behavioral pattern found at the scene in which the offender tried to psychologically “undo” the crime. For example, a distraught or emotionally upset offender, who kills the victim, may try to undo his or her actions by placing the body in bed, gently placing the head on a pillow, and neatly covering the body with blankets. Or he or she may place the victim upright in a chair, trying desperately to return the victim to a natural-looking state.
Introduction to Forensic Psychology: Research and Application, Curt R. Bartol, Anne M. Bartol, page 87

Undoing represents a form of personation with more obvious meaning. Undoing frequently occurs at the crime scene when there is close association between the offender and the victim or when the victim represents someone of significance to the offender.

The following case exemplifies undoing. A son stabbed his mother to death during a fierce argument. After calming down, the son realized the full impact of his actions. First, he changed the victim’s bloodied shirt and then placed her body on the couch with her head on a pillow. He covered her with a blanket and folded her hands over her chest so she appeared to be sleeping peacefully. This behavior indicated his remorse by attempting to emotionally undo the murder. Other forms of undoing may include the offender’s washing up, cleaning the body, covering the victim’s face, or completely covering the body. The offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse.

• What is staging?

Staging is when someone purposely alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of police. there are two reasons why someone employs staging, to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim's or victim's family.
When a crime is staged, the responsible person is not someone who just happens upon the victim. It is usually someone who had some kind of association or relationship whth the victim. This offender will further attempt to steer the investigation away from him by his conduct when in contact with law enforcement. Thus, investigators should never eliminate a suspect solely on the grounds of that person’s overly cooperative or distraught behavior.
A double homicide case that received national publicity involved Susan Smith, the mother of Alex and Michael, who purposely let her car, with her two small sons inside, roll into Joh D. Long Lake in Union, South Carolina. Smith first went to a nearby home where she banged on the door, screaming, “He’s got my kids and he’s got my car. A black man has got my kids and my car.” The home owners called 911. Smith told police that she was stopped at a red light when a black man jumped in her car and told her to drive. Eventually Smith said the man told her to her out of the car and he proceeded to drive off with her children.
Smith attempted to steer the investigation away from her by creating a false scenario to detract police. She was interviewed on many occasions, and police began to catch the inconsistencies in her story. In addition, the manner in which she spoke of her children’s disappearances made police question her as a potential suspect. During numerous interviews . Smith spoke about her sons in the past tense; at one point she said, “No man would ever make me hurt my children.” This statement told police that she believed her children were not alive. Police began to focus the investigation on Smith, who ultimately confessed during an interview with an investigator.
The second reason for staging is to protect the victim's family and is employed most frequently with rape-murder crimes or autoerotic fatalities. The offender of a sexual homicide frequently leaves the victim in a degrading position.
One can hardly fault a family member’s protective staging behavior , but the investigator needs to obtain an accurate description of the body’s condition when found and exactly what that person did to alter the crime scene.
This type of staging is also prevalent with autoerotic fatalities. The victim may be removed from the apparatus that caused death (for example, cut down from a noose or device suspending the body). In many cases, the victim wears a mask or costume. The costume often involves cross-dressing, so not only does the person discovering the body have to endure the shock of finding the victim dead, but also the shock of finding the victim in female dress. To prevent further damage to the victim’s or family’s reputation or to protect other family members , the person discovering the body may redress the victim in men’s clothing or dress the nude body. He or she will often stage the accident to look like a suicide, perhaps writing a suicide note. This person may even go as far as staging the scene to appear as a homicide. Nevertheless, scrutiny of forensics, crime scene dynamics, and victimology probably will reveal the true circumstances surrounding death. Evidence of previous autoerotic activities (bondage literature, adult “toys,” eyebolts in the ceiling, worn spots from rope on beams) in the victim’s home also will help determine if an autoerotic activity caused death.

Finally, the investigator should discern whether a crime scene is truly disorganized or whether the offender staged it to appear careless and haphazard. This determination not only helps direct the analysis to the underlying motive but also helps to shape the offender profile. However, the recognition of staging especially with a shrewd offender can be difficult. The investigator must scrutinize all factors of the crime if there is reason to believe it has been staged. Forensics, victimology and minute crime scene details become critical to the detection of staging.

• More on staging and undoing:

In attempting to examine staged crime scenes, the following study selected 25 cases at random. It turned out that all 25 cases had one common element, that there was an intimate or family relationship involved:
The author selected cased from a national database of published and unpublished U.S. criminal and civil court decisions…
For the purposes of this study, crime scene staging refers to the alteration or simulation of physical evidence at a location where a crime has occurred of where a crime is alleged to have occurred in order to mislead authorities or redirect their investigation by attempting to simulate an offense or event that did not actually take place.
…
Given the finding that 100% (25) of the cases studied involved at least one offender and at least one victim with a prior family/intimate relationship and that 84% (21) of the cases studied occurred inside or outside the victim’s home…
Criminal profiling: an introduction to behavioral evidence analysis, Brent Turvey, page 259
…
Of the cases studied, staging was used in 100% (25) of them to conceal the crime of homicide.
Criminal profiling: an introduction to behavioral evidence analysis, Brent Turvey, page 262

Crime Scene Red Flags:

An offender who stages a crime scene usually makes mistakes because he stages it to look the way he thinks a crime scene should look. While doing this, the offender experiences a great deal of stress and don’t not have time to fit all the pieces together logically. Inconsistencies will begin appearing at the crime scene with forensics and with the overall picture of the offense. These contradictions will often serve as the red flags of staging and prevent misguidance of the investigation.
[SNIP]
Investigators often will find forensic discrepancies when a subject stages a rape/murder. The offender frequently positions the victim to imply sexual assault has occurred. an offender who has a close relationship with the victim will often only partially remove the victim’s clothing (for example, pants pulled down, shirt or dress pulled up). He rarely leaves the victim nude.
[SNIP]
With a staged sexual assault, there is usually no evidence of any sexual activity and an absence of seminal fluids in the body orifices.
An investigator who suspects a staged crime scene should look for other signs of close offender association with the victim, such as washing up or any other indications of undoing.
Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 32 - 39

Spontaneous Domestic Homicide:

The crime scene reflects disorder and the impetuous nature of the killing. The weapon will be one of opportunity, often obtained and left at the scene. There is no forced entry and no sign of theft. The crime scene may also reflect an escalation of violence – for example, the confrontation starts as an argument, intensifies into hitting or throwing things, and culminates in the victim’s death.
There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer’s way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender’s washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim-offender relationship The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement of emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.
Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 155 - 156

John Douglas: When parents kill, there’s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child, roll the child over, face down or something like that…http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14429987/

If a child’s body is found, there’s a very good chance we’ll figure out who did it. Parents aren’t usually as detached about disposing of their children’s bodies as strangers are – they may wrap the body in plastic and bury it someplace significant to them. If they feel remorse over the murder, they may try to lead investigators in the right direction so the body wil be found and buried in a proper ceremony.
Journey Into Darkness, John Douglas, page 148

"The child was found buried in the woods in his snowsuit, wrapped in a blanket, then completely covered with a thick plastic bag. A kidnapper or child molester would not have taken this much care to make him warm and "comfortable," or to try to shelter the body from the elements. While many murder scenes show obvious and prolonged rage, and dump sites often show contempt and hostility, the hallmarks of this burial were love and guilt."
Mindhunter, John Douglas, page 287

Eventually the mother confirmed the profilers’ estimate of what had happened, and admitted to having killed her own child and trying to cover up the crime with a mock kidnapping. She took the police to the site where the body had been left. Here there was no evidence of staging at all, with the little girl buried deep in secluded woodland, wrapped in thick warm garments and a blanket, and covered with a bag to deter predators. Had the body been found for any other reason, the care taken over the disposal of the child’s remains would have tended to focus attention on the mother, for the combination of love and guilt shown so clearly, rather than the indifference to be expected from real kidnappers.
Profiling, the psychology of catching killers, David Owen, page 89

• Now that we know what undoing is, do we see it in the JonBenet case?

Earlier, when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenét’s cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 29

LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.
John Ramsey interview, June 1998

MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it
like –
RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.

MIKE KANE: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.
MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.
John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

Q. JonBenet was found wearing the Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your understanding is correct, that is a fact, you can accept that as a fact, when she was found murdered. Those underpants do not fit her. Were you aware of that?
MR. WOOD: Are you stating that as a matter of fact --
MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a matter --
MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old child?
MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as a matter of fact.
…
Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
A. I have become aware of that, yes.
Patsy Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying, I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture, big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.
TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears –
PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under there.
Patsy Ramsey interview, June 1998

In the wine cellar, Everett discovered on the white blanket the piece of tape Fleet White had handled. Next to the blanket was a child-size pink nightgown with the word Barbie embossed on it.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 21

Lee suggested that the cellar room in which the body was found was not necessarily the location of the primary attack. He also wondered about the presence of the pink nightgown discovered near the victim. A kidnapper, he ventured, probably would not bring a victim’s favorite piece of clothing along with a dead body.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 166

On the other hand, the killer cared about the victim and wanted her found. He or she didn’t want JonBenét outside in the dead of winter in the middle of the night. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 498

The FBI profile said that parents typically found it harder to dispose of a child’s body than an intruder would. Listening to the presentation, one investigator theorized that the nightgown might have been bundled up together with the blanket, a gesture not unlike burying the child with her favorite stuffed animal.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 662

The coroner told the police that the blood smears on the skin and the fibers found in the folds of the labia indicated that the child’s pubic area had been wiped with a cloth. The blood smears also contained traces of fibers.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 57

Since the autopsy, the police had thought there was semen on JonBenét’s upper thighs. Then, on January 15, the CBI came back with the analysis. The substance thought to be semen was in fact smeared blood. There was no semen. JonBenét’s body had been wiped clean, leaving a residue that was visible under the flourescent light at the autopsy.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 172

It appeared that the vaginal area had been wiped, and small dark fibers were collected from her pubic region.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 46

Ressler said he doesn't believe the killer intended to kill the child and feels great remorse about the death. The wiping is a further indication that the killer is not a serial killer or a "career" child molester or predator, Ressler said last night.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon2.htm
 
otg,

100% agreement.

I'm fine with your interpretation, its a distinct possibility. What got me thinking further is the 90 minutes period, and why that time lapse and not say 10-minutes?
I still haven't accepted the 90-minute premise. I can't dispute it -- I'm not qualified. But until I have figured it out to my own satisfaction, I'll have to look at it both ways: short time frame and longer time frame.

So I assumed it was not a parent but Burke trying to work out what his next move should be. So his presence with his knife and the cord, he decides to strangle JonBenet but having not done it before, he is inconclusive. So he stops again, thinks about it, some time passes, then he decides a paintbrush handle will help here, so breaks the paintbrush, adds it to the ligature and uses it to create some leverage, thus creating the circumferential furrow?
I'll entertain any theoretical circumstance as long as it fits with the evidence we are aware of. But with what we do know, I don't think the strangulation was deliberate (JMO). Remember... I believe there were two placements of the ligature. The first one is the blanched area. And because it is blanched, it means it was there postmortem. And if it was there postmortem, it means it is the one that killed her. So why did it end up in another location on her neck when her body was found?

Also, I don't think BR had anything to do with the staging afterwards.

Assuming the blanched area is good evidence then another explanation is a prior attempt at staging upstairs, after her head bash. When brought down to the basement, the paintbrush is added to the ligature, it is moved up slightly and tightened, this is meant to be vivid staging, but leaves the lower neck with the blanched effect?
That is a possibility that would fit with the evidence. But why would you specify the staging attempt to be upstairs?

I'll have to check over the photos again and compare your theory in more depth.
.
I'll be looking forward to it.

midwest mama,
Yes its difficult to come down on one side or the other. One minute I'm thinking its all BDI, then I remember Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote. So otg could have it right, and after Burke does some general cleaning up, and moving JonBenet say close to the paint-tote, he then goes and tells his parents, and the rest we can guess?

How involved might Burke have been in any alleged staging with his knife down there, could he have been helping his parents out? e.g. "Hey Burke, fetch a flashlight", "Burke go put fresh batteries in this flashlight", "Burke fetch a knife for me". "Burke fetch a blanket", Burke get some lonhjohns from upstairs"
Again, I don't believe BR had anything to do with the staging. That (IMO) was all JR leading, and PR assisting. I think after the event happened, BR either summoned his parents, or they heard JonBenet's scream and one of them (probably PR) came down and found it and then summoned the other. Once the decision was made that they weren't going to notify the authorities, it was probably like... "Burke, you've done enough already. Just get out of the way and keep your mouth shut while we fix this."

I would like to make this point. Its obvious, but sometimes only if its highlighted.

When John's fibers are found all over JonBenet's groin and mixed in with the blood, this means its probable John either removed his shirt, or JonBenet was already in a room where he had already removed his shirt!

Which indirectly proves John was awake, presenting him as a stager or the actual person who abused JonBenet, or both!

.
Yes. But my bet is on stager only.
.
 
I still haven't accepted the 90-minute premise. I can't dispute it -- I'm not qualified. But until I have figured it out to my own satisfaction, I'll have to look at it both ways: short time frame and longer time frame.

I'll entertain any theoretical circumstance as long as it fits with the evidence we are aware of. But with what we do know, I don't think the strangulation was deliberate (JMO). Remember... I believe there were two placements of the ligature. The first one is the blanched area. And because it is blanched, it means it was there postmortem. And if it was there postmortem, it means it is the one that killed her. So why did it end up in another location on her neck when her body was found?

Also, I don't think BR had anything to do with the staging afterwards.

That is a possibility that would fit with the evidence. But why would you specify the staging attempt to be upstairs?

I'll be looking forward to it.


Again, I don't believe BR had anything to do with the staging. That (IMO) was all JR leading, and PR assisting. I think after the event happened, BR either summoned his parents, or they heard JonBenet's scream and one of them (probably PR) came down and found it and then summoned the other. Once the decision was made that they weren't going to notify the authorities, it was probably like... "Burke, you've done enough already. Just get out of the way and keep your mouth shut while we fix this."

Yes. But my bet is on stager only.
.

otg,

Your analysis always make me think 'outside of my own box':)...hmmm...interesting thought on your part. I always assumed that rope found on JBR neck was an ORIGINAL tool of strangulation. And as far we know, this rope doesn't have BR DNA, only fibers from PR jacket. So, if BR was involved in strangulation and the 'blanching' area was left from this so-called 'initial' strangulation then robe found on JBR neck is NOT the real one which caused her death?...This will explain the absent of BR DNA on it. Well, the only way to know for sure is to see the autopsy pictures of JBR neck WITHOUT the rope. Which makes me wonder: how much we DON'T know yet!!!

:banghead:
 
Impossible. The garrote was made while she was ALIVE (red furrow, bruising, petechiae all occur in a LIVE person, all forensic specialists agree) and the white mark (representing a blanched area which had become fixed) was made after death during the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
Okay, I'm gonna have to break this up into parts to address because we are now working on the fine details. DD, I really don't think we disagree on anything here. Maybe it's my OCD kicking in, but I just want to go over the details to make sure we do agree because I value your knowledge, and if I'm wrong about something, I want to know.

The garrote was made while she was ALIVE
I won't quibble with you over the use of the word "garrote" -- I believe you are referring to the portion of the ligature that was left around her neck causing the circumferential furrow. The only reason for bringing it up is because we don't know when it was made, we simply know when it was used.

(red furrow, bruising, petechiae all occur in a LIVE person, all forensic specialists agree)
I'm not one, but I too do agree. However, you are assuming that all of the petechiae and bruising were caused by the ligature in its final position. They could just as easily (and some absolutely) have been caused by the same ligature when it was in its other lower position. We know it had to have been there postmortem because it had to be there during the blanching phase. I don't have the qualifications to speak with authority and say definitely which ones were caused by which placement, but with what I do know I can make a pretty good guess. For instance, right above the blanched area is a concentration of multiple petechiae. They are so close together that they look like a solid bruise. I believe it is safe to say that these were caused by the cord when it was in the lower position.

and the white mark (representing a blanched area which had become fixed) was made after death during the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
It's true that the blanching occurs after death, but saying that can be misleading because it seems like it means that the cord wasn't applied in that location until after death. It could be just as likely, or even more likely (IMO), to have been there before death and after. The crucial part being that it is there during the period of time in which blanching occurs, which of course as you have pointed out is shortly after death.
.
 
Okay, I'm gonna have to break this up into parts to address because we are now working on the fine details. DD, I really don't think we disagree on anything here. Maybe it's my OCD kicking in, but I just want to go over the details to make sure we do agree because I value your knowledge, and if I'm wrong about something, I want to know.

I won't quibble with you over the use of the word "garrote" -- I believe you are referring to the portion of the ligature that was left around her neck causing the circumferential furrow. The only reason for bringing it up is because we don't know when it was made, we simply know when it was used.

I'm not one, but I too do agree. However, you are assuming that all of the petechiae and bruising were caused by the ligature in its final position. They could just as easily (and some absolutely) have been caused by the same ligature when it was in its other lower position. We know it had to have been there postmortem because it had to be there during the blanching phase. I don't have the qualifications to speak with authority and say definitely which ones were caused by which placement, but with what I do know I can make a pretty good guess. For instance, right above the blanched area is a concentration of multiple petechiae. They are so close together that they look like a solid bruise. I believe it is safe to say that these were caused by the cord when it was in the lower position.

It's true that the blanching occurs after death, but saying that can be misleading because it seems like it means that the cord wasn't applied in that location until after death. It could be just as likely, or even more likely (IMO), to have been there before death and after. The crucial part being that it is there during the period of time in which blanching occurs, which of course as you have pointed out is shortly after death.
.

The part of the cord that made the RED furrow with associated bruising was wound while she was still alive and helped to cause her death. The part of the cord that made the WHITE mark came LAST- she was already dead. You are correct that THAT part of the cord was not applied until after death, because if she was not yet dead, the mark would be RED, not white, or there would be a red mark directly under it. There was not.
I am not suggesting that they came back later and wound it once for good measure (though that might have happened) but rather that she died DURING the strangulation and the last time around had to have happened after her heart stopped beating.
I also believe the garrote was made in the basement, just outside the wineceller near the paint tote as she lay on her stomach. It is possible that, in placing her on her back in the wineceller, a section of the cord simply was placed over the front of her throat. Actually, if you look at the photos of her neck, in the view where you see ONLY the back of her neck, there is NO white mark. But in the view where you see the FRONT of her neck, you see the white mark. This is VERY consistent with what I have just suggested- that one part of the cord was lain across her throat when she was put in the wineceller.
Here's another thing to consider: Her head was cocked to the right, leaning towards her shoulder. The front of her neck shows some overlapping of skin folds and it is also possible that the white mark was not made by the cord at all, but by a skin fold from placing her on her back and the skin of her neck folded after death.
 
I just cant get straight in my own mind why jonbenet would have been wiped down. The person probably wore latex gloves so no fingerprints. It's proven, to me at least, that the vaginal jab happened at the very last either just right before the strangling or during the few minutes it took to die of that. My theory of the gown, pillow, and blanket being stained with blood from the previous assault could include the panties. Maybe it was all premeditated and whoever did it failed to realize that a dead person would not bleed enough on their own body to correspond with clothing and bedding. If all the blood wasn't from a previos assault then maybe it was planted to look like sexual assault. I'm not really buying all the comforting things done for jonbenet.'
 

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