Three critical questions

[midwest mama]

otg,
I reckon you are correct about the V pattern stuff. Its presence is normally used to distinuish vertical hanging from autoerotic asphyxiation, where relatives usually claim they cut their relative down etc.

The blanched area is like the blood on JonBenet's pillow. It requires some explaining, and what you suggest is fine.

I'm just wondering if assuming a BDI Burke using the ligature attempts to strangle JonBenet fails, thereby causing the blanched area, so then after a period of time, close to 90 minutes, he has constructed the garrote and uses this to asphyxiate JonBenet possibly by placing a foot on her back and pulling upwards?



.

I'm with you all the way through the first strangling attempt with the ligature, and Burke being in attendance of her in some way while being in a state of dismay and confusion not knowing if she's really dead and now trying to figure out what he should do during the time interval, and then... :websleuther:

Possibility: Burke panics - for whatever reason - runs to get a parent (or both) and several of the other proposed crime elements occurred, along with (*)(see below)a parent wrapping the piece of paintbrush handle with the cord to use it as a handle to do the tightening so they wouldn't have to touch JB.

Burke goes up to sit in the hall outside JB's room curled up (cop noted butt marks in carpet outside JB's room, according to Kolar book) and remains there until he hears parent(s) in kitchen making 911 call, comes down again accounting for possibility his voice is heard on enhanced tape.

(*) Both of the R's had several reasons why they would have wanted to make sure the ligature cord was going to kill JB, didn't they? Too many posts by too many people continually point them all out. Being adults with half a brain, they would know they had to once and for all tighten that ligature to complete the task. So, there nearby lies the paintbrush, broken or unbroken (it really doesn't matter) with telltale signs of molestation on it, so it becomes almost an automatic remedy action: grab the stick handle (breaking it if necessary), clean it off, then wrap it up within the remaining cord length to make a handle which will give them plenty of leverage to pull tight enough to assure complete strangulation. As a matter of circumstance, they would not have to touch her body, which would have been very traumatic for them at this point.

If Burke was involved as speculated, and parent(s) covered up from the time of this supposed 2nd strangulation (which actually caused death), we naturally have to assume the trauma of the parents would have been surreal, given the circumstances. Is is no wonder that everything they felt they would have needed to do to cover up this horrific crime became such a travesty of confusion in so many ways from there on? Chaos and trauma would easily account for some of the aspects of this crime being so unexplainable, and for some of them being so very explainable. "Do this, no - do that, but wait, here's what we can do, but we'll need to do this, and this, hurry up, get this done, our daughter's dead, our son's a mess, our life will be in ruins, what about our church, what about our businesses, our daughter's dead, stop - think, cry, supposed to be on a plane at 7:30, meeting kids, where's Burke right now - oh God, how are we going to handle all this. Enough already, call 911, get help - we'll figure it out, someway, somehow". :anguish:

If this crime had been committed within any slight sense of methodical planning, by an adult (?parent), you would think their plan would have been detectable enough within a reasonable amount of time by one of the several credible members of law enforcement with the ability to put an airtight case together leading to indictment. Unless........it WAS, and there was cover-up after cover-up within other sectors of both law enforcement and the government, until the situation became the mess that it is today, right DocG? And even if we could begin to figure out why all the cover-up, would it do any good? Will anything ever be done about it? :banghead: We, like Chief Kolar can remain HOPEFUL, even though reality expects us to accept the status quo of this case. :maddening:

Any way you look at this crime unfolding, the forces that prevailed from the moment it began on that December day in 1996 have succeeded in doing only one real thing - They have perpetuated the activity of Evil in this world and kept a child from receiving the justice here on Earth she deserves. One day the Final Judgement on all this will indeed be Victorious.

Until then - S. She B. Belongs T. To C. Christ

 

[OpenMind4U]

I'm with you all the way through the first strangling attempt with the ligature, and Burke being in attendance of her in some way while being in a state of dismay and confusion not knowing if she's really dead and now trying to figure out what he should do during the time interval, and then... :websleuther:

Possibility: Burke panics - for whatever reason - runs to get a parent (or both) and several of the other proposed crime elements occurred, along with (*)(see below)a parent wrapping the piece of paintbrush handle with the cord to use it as a handle to do the tightening so they wouldn't have to touch JB.

Burke goes up to sit in the hall outside JB's room curled up (cop noted butt marks in carpet outside JB's room, according to Kolar book) and remains there until he hears parent(s) in kitchen making 911 call, comes down again accounting for possibility his voice is heard on enhanced tape.

(*) Both of the R's had several reasons why they would have wanted to make sure the ligature cord was going to kill JB, didn't they? Too many posts by too many people continually point them all out. Being adults with half a brain, they would know they had to once and for all tighten that ligature to complete the task. So, there nearby lies the paintbrush, broken or unbroken (it really doesn't matter) with telltale signs of molestation on it, so it becomes almost an automatic remedy action: grab the stick handle (breaking it if necessary), clean it off, then wrap it up within the remaining cord length to make a handle which will give them plenty of leverage to pull tight enough to assure complete strangulation. As a matter of circumstance, they would not have to touch her body, which would have been very traumatic for them at this point.

If Burke was involved as speculated, and parent(s) covered up from the time of this supposed 2nd strangulation (which actually caused death), we naturally have to assume the trauma of the parents would have been surreal, given the circumstances. Is is no wonder that everything they felt they would have needed to do to cover up this horrific crime became such a travesty of confusion in so many ways from there on? Chaos and trauma would easily account for some of the aspects of this crime being so unexplainable, and for some of them being so very explainable. "Do this, no - do that, but wait, here's what we can do, but we'll need to do this, and this, hurry up, get this done, our daughter's dead, our son's a mess, our life will be in ruins, what about our church, what about our businesses, our daughter's dead, stop - think, cry, supposed to be on a plane at 7:30, meeting kids, where's Burke right now - oh God, how are we going to handle all this. Enough already, call 911, get help - we'll figure it out, someway, somehow". :anguish:

If this crime had been committed within any slight sense of methodical planning, by an adult (?parent), you would think their plan would have been detectable enough within a reasonable amount of time by one of the several credible members of law enforcement with the ability to put an airtight case together leading to indictment. Unless........it WAS, and there was cover-up after cover-up within other sectors of both law enforcement and the government, until the situation became the mess that it is today, right DocG? And even if we could begin to figure out why all the cover-up, would it do any good? Will anything ever be done about it? :banghead: We, like Chief Kolar can remain HOPEFUL, even though reality expects us to accept the status quo of this case. :maddening:

Any way you look at this crime unfolding, the forces that prevailed from the moment it began on that December day in 1996 have succeeded in doing only one real thing - They have perpetuated the activity of Evil in this world and kept a child from receiving the justice here on Earth she deserves. One day the Final Judgement on all this will indeed be Victorious.

Until then - S. She B. Belongs T. To C. Christ

Bottom line, you're correct. Kolar has pointed out to too many 'organized' and 'disorganized' elements that have been mixed together. It was interesting that you mention about 'cop noted butt marks in carpet outside JB's room, according to Kolar book'. Too bad that whoever 'noticed' these marks - didn't snap the pictures of these marks. However, when Kolar approached the cop who supposedly should see these marks - he denies ever see them (per Kolar book, on the same page)....I never read and never will read JR book OSS. But the title itself - ' Other Side of Suffering' - gives me the krippy feeling of the actual truth: JBR suffers as well as her parents...

 

[UKGuy]

In any scenario, the blanched area has to be explained. Can we agree on that? The blanched area represents where something was pressing on the skin perimortem/postmortem.

So look at the available photos (hopefully I don't need to post them again). Look at where the cord would be at the front of her neck if it were in the blanched out area. Now, if you look at where the white line continues on around the side of her neck, you see that it is going in an upward direction as it goes to the back. We can't see where it ends because it disappears into the area where the furrow is in the back. Without seeing the back part, we don't know if it would be visible were the furrow not there, or if it would not be visible because it would be the familiar "V" found in other hangings (IOW, where the knot was being pulled away from her neck). This type of pattern is not likely in any type of strangulation done where the assailant is pulling on the ligature, because the tendency would not be to pull up -- but rather away from the victim.

In this type of hanging (one where the victim is not dropped from a long distance), the person doesn't die quickly from a broken neck. In fact, it could take quite some time before death actually occurs. But within seconds, unconsciousness will happen -- this because of one of three possible responses -- each of which results in a loss of oxygen -- asphyxia, hypoxia, or it can be the famous (but sometimes disputed) vagus nerve response (AKA, carotid sinus reflex).

Back to your final thought ("...he has constructed the garrote and uses this to asphyxiate JonBenet possibly by placing a foot on her back and pulling upwards.")... As tight as the ligature is that was found on JonBenet's body, it would not be necessary to continue pulling on the cord after the slipknot had tightened. Also, after the cord is tightened and released, it would remain in place allowing for the circumferential placement. I would contend though that this second placement of the ligature was unnecessary for its purpose. For the other placement to be blanched as we see it, it would have to be in place postmortem, or otherwise the blood would have returned to the surface of the skin thereby flushing away the white area. My question here would be whether the ligature moved on its own as it overcame the laryngeal prominence -- or was it moved by someone in their attempt at staging. That is the only question I have about it in this scenario.
.

otg,

In any scenario, the blanched area has to be explained.

100% agreement.

I'm fine with your interpretation, its a distinct possibility. What got me thinking further is the 90 minutes period, and why that time lapse and not say 10-minutes?

So I assumed it was not a parent but Burke trying to work out what his next move should be. So his presence with his knife and the cord, he decides to strangle JonBenet but having not done it before, he is inconclusive. So he stops again, thinks about it, some time passes, then he decides a paintbrush handle will help here, so breaks the paintbrush, adds it to the ligature and uses it to create some leverage, thus creating the circumferential furrow?

Assuming the blanched area is good evidence then another explanation is a prior attempt at staging upstairs, after her head bash. When brought down to the basement, the paintbrush is added to the ligature, it is moved up slightly and tightened, this is meant to be vivid staging, but leaves the lower neck with the blanched effect?

I'll have to check over the photos again and compare your theory in more depth.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm with you all the way through the first strangling attempt with the ligature, and Burke being in attendance of her in some way while being in a state of dismay and confusion not knowing if she's really dead and now trying to figure out what he should do during the time interval, and then... :websleuther:

Possibility: Burke panics - for whatever reason - runs to get a parent (or both) and several of the other proposed crime elements occurred, along with (*)(see below)a parent wrapping the piece of paintbrush handle with the cord to use it as a handle to do the tightening so they wouldn't have to touch JB.

Burke goes up to sit in the hall outside JB's room curled up (cop noted butt marks in carpet outside JB's room, according to Kolar book) and remains there until he hears parent(s) in kitchen making 911 call, comes down again accounting for possibility his voice is heard on enhanced tape.

(*) Both of the R's had several reasons why they would have wanted to make sure the ligature cord was going to kill JB, didn't they? Too many posts by too many people continually point them all out. Being adults with half a brain, they would know they had to once and for all tighten that ligature to complete the task. So, there nearby lies the paintbrush, broken or unbroken (it really doesn't matter) with telltale signs of molestation on it, so it becomes almost an automatic remedy action: grab the stick handle (breaking it if necessary), clean it off, then wrap it up within the remaining cord length to make a handle which will give them plenty of leverage to pull tight enough to assure complete strangulation. As a matter of circumstance, they would not have to touch her body, which would have been very traumatic for them at this point.

If Burke was involved as speculated, and parent(s) covered up from the time of this supposed 2nd strangulation (which actually caused death), we naturally have to assume the trauma of the parents would have been surreal, given the circumstances. Is is no wonder that everything they felt they would have needed to do to cover up this horrific crime became such a travesty of confusion in so many ways from there on? Chaos and trauma would easily account for some of the aspects of this crime being so unexplainable, and for some of them being so very explainable. "Do this, no - do that, but wait, here's what we can do, but we'll need to do this, and this, hurry up, get this done, our daughter's dead, our son's a mess, our life will be in ruins, what about our church, what about our businesses, our daughter's dead, stop - think, cry, supposed to be on a plane at 7:30, meeting kids, where's Burke right now - oh God, how are we going to handle all this. Enough already, call 911, get help - we'll figure it out, someway, somehow". :anguish:

If this crime had been committed within any slight sense of methodical planning, by an adult (?parent), you would think their plan would have been detectable enough within a reasonable amount of time by one of the several credible members of law enforcement with the ability to put an airtight case together leading to indictment. Unless........it WAS, and there was cover-up after cover-up within other sectors of both law enforcement and the government, until the situation became the mess that it is today, right DocG? And even if we could begin to figure out why all the cover-up, would it do any good? Will anything ever be done about it? :banghead: We, like Chief Kolar can remain HOPEFUL, even though reality expects us to accept the status quo of this case. :maddening:

Any way you look at this crime unfolding, the forces that prevailed from the moment it began on that December day in 1996 have succeeded in doing only one real thing - They have perpetuated the activity of Evil in this world and kept a child from receiving the justice here on Earth she deserves. One day the Final Judgement on all this will indeed be Victorious.

Until then - S. She B. Belongs T. To C. Christ

midwest mama,
Yes its difficult to come down on one side or the other. One minute I'm thinking its all BDI, then I remember Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote. So otg could have it right, and after Burke does some general cleaning up, and moving JonBenet say close to the paint-tote, he then goes and tells his parents, and the rest we can guess?

How involved might Burke have been in any alleged staging with his knife down there, could he have been helping his parents out? e.g. "Hey Burke, fetch a flashlight", "Burke go put fresh batteries in this flashlight", "Burke fetch a knife for me". "Burke fetch a blanket", Burke get some lonhjohns from upstairs"

I would like to make this point. Its obvious, but sometimes only if its highlighted.

When John's fibers are found all over JonBenet's groin and mixed in with the blood, this means its probable John either removed his shirt, or JonBenet was already in a room where he had already removed his shirt!

Which indirectly proves John was awake, presenting him as a stager or the actual person who abused JonBenet, or both!


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

midwest mama,
Yes its difficult to come down on one side or the other. One minute I'm thinking its all BDI, then I remember Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote. So otg could have it right, and after Burke does some general cleaning up, and moving JonBenet say close to the paint-tote, he then goes and tells his parents, and the rest we can guess?

How involved might Burke have been in any alleged staging with his knife down there, could he have been helping his parents out? e.g. "Hey Burke, fetch a flashlight", "Burke go put fresh batteries in this flashlight", "Burke fetch a knife for me". "Burke fetch a blanket", Burke get some lonhjohns from upstairs"

I would like to make this point. Its obvious, but sometimes only if its highlighted.

When John's fibers are found all over JonBenet's groin and mixed in with the blood, this means its probable John either removed his shirt, or JonBenet was already in a room where he had already removed his shirt!Which indirectly proves John was awake, presenting him as a stager or the actual person who abused JonBenet, or both!


.

LOL...Did I ever told you that I admire British accent?....

Let's go back to your highlighited statement, please:...or it could mean that X-person USED JOHN'S SHIRT to wipe-off JBR, right? ...you see, we have many options here....and

IF X-person wiped JBR with John's shirt THEN
X-person performs the 'staging' AND
((X-person = JR) OR (X-person not = JR))
ENDIF;.........:woohoo:

 

[ciela]

If I were to go with the BDI theory, it may be plausible that the whole episode started as a game of lead the puppy or pony down in the basement. Maybe the pineapple was a treat for the "pet". Jonbenet would have allowed a rope around her neck without fighting. At some point perhaps she becomes angry or frightened and fights back. The rope tightens, Burke loses his temper pulls the rope tighter (probably behind her) - grabs a golf club and delivers a fatal blow to her head. Staging follows when the parents are alerted. All of this is hypothetical of course but it is a scenario that I find believable but unpalatable.

My unanswered question is how does someone that pathological stay out of trouble for the next 16 year of his life?

 

[txsvicki]

What if he stuck his hand and shirt cuff through both the leg openings of the brand new panties after taking them out of the package. If they were folded and rolled i could see a nervous man having trouble getting them prepared to go on the body.

 

[OpenMind4U]

If I were to go with the BDI theory, it may be plausible that the whole episode started as a game of lead the puppy or pony down in the basement. Maybe the pineapple was a treat for the "pet". Jonbenet would have allowed a rope around her neck without fighting. At some point perhaps she becomes angry or frightened and fights back. The rope tightens, Burke loses his temper pulls the rope tighter (probably behind her) - grabs a golf club and delivers a fatal blow to her head. Staging follows when the parents are alerted. All of this is hypothetical of course but it is a scenario that I find believable but unpalatable.

My unanswered question is how does someone that pathological stay out of trouble for the next 16 year of his life?[/QUOTE]

ciela,

I don't know if you had chance to read Kolar's book. The answer to your question is there. If BDI (means Burke was involved in molestation and head blow acts) then certain psychological condition in children at BR age (widely disccussed in the book) - is treatable by good psychologist in short period of time (for example, in 1 year). And evidences show (again, in Kolar book) that BR was taken psychiatry-related treatments shortly after JBR death and years after....Highly recommend to read Kolar book. You'll learn a lot!!!!

 

[KoldKase]

midwest mama,
Yes its difficult to come down on one side or the other. One minute I'm thinking its all BDI, then I remember Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote. So otg could have it right, and after Burke does some general cleaning up, and moving JonBenet say close to the paint-tote, he then goes and tells his parents, and the rest we can guess?

How involved might Burke have been in any alleged staging with his knife down there, could he have been helping his parents out? e.g. "Hey Burke, fetch a flashlight", "Burke go put fresh batteries in this flashlight", "Burke fetch a knife for me". "Burke fetch a blanket", Burke get some lonhjohns from upstairs"

I would like to make this point. Its obvious, but sometimes only if its highlighted.

When John's fibers are found all over JonBenet's groin and mixed in with the blood, this means its probable John either removed his shirt, or JonBenet was already in a room where he had already removed his shirt!

Which indirectly proves John was awake, presenting him as a stager or the actual person who abused JonBenet, or both!


.

Hm. Interesting thought about JR having removed his shirt....

JR said the basement was hot, BTW. Not that we can believe anything he said, but let's say he told the truth on that count...maybe he got hot while down there, with a wool shirt on? So he took it off.

I know when in a crisis situation, I sweat. Not that I've ever been in anything like that kind of crisis. Thank the stars.

BTW, we've had some ideas about the pillowcase and blanket on the sister thread at FFJ today.

I think it's possible we now have explained why the pillow was at the foot of the bed, how JB's blood got on it, and possibly how the blanket fits into this.

As for the ligature, I've heard so many possible theories by now, I'm numb. So I guess I'm going to say whatever happened to cause the strangulation, she got strangled.

But again, I don't see how Burke's DNA can't be on the ligature if he cut it, tied it on, and pulled it. Or alternately, if he tied the "handle" on, hoisted it over something, and then did the hogtied technique: where's his DNA? If he broke the paintbrush, again...DNA.

But if either or both parents did that, as opposed to the head blow, I mean: they wore gloves to keep from leaving fingerprints, just a general wise decision any dolt would think of when committing murder, I'd say. Which inadvertently worked for not leaving cells for future DNA advancements.

Remember, DNA wasn't that developed or well researched in 1996, which is why I think there's so much DNA artifact that it looks like a foreign faction was in the basement, if you go by the DNA.

Good job, peeps. Great job, really.

 

[DeeDee249]

The blanching remains until decomposition starts. When livor becomes "fixed", the blood is thick at that point, more like a gel, so it doesn't move when the body is moved. The part of the cord that made the white mark (blanching) was left in place, obviously, just like the part that made the red furrow, until the coroner removed them- even more of an indication that she was unconscious when it happened. Like Kolar, I have always believed the head bash came first.

 

[KoldKase]

If I were to go with the BDI theory, it may be plausible that the whole episode started as a game of lead the puppy or pony down in the basement. Maybe the pineapple was a treat for the "pet". Jonbenet would have allowed a rope around her neck without fighting. At some point perhaps she becomes angry or frightened and fights back. The rope tightens, Burke loses his temper pulls the rope tighter (probably behind her) - grabs a golf club and delivers a fatal blow to her head. Staging follows when the parents are alerted. All of this is hypothetical of course but it is a scenario that I find believable but unpalatable.

My unanswered question is how does someone that pathological stay out of trouble for the next 16 year of his life?

You know, this is a theory that has been around a while. We used to have a poster here--"Contessa." She was amazing in many ways; this was her theory, more or less. But you've added the "pineapple treat" to it. That's interesting.

An early, childhood version of "slave/master" role playing?

One thing I can tell you as a former teacher: children are by definition not fully developed. So they do things we may want to apply adult terms to, like pathological. In fact, they're truly not responsible for acting as a "normal" adult with sociological training would. They simply don't have the ability to understand things like the consequences of their actions.

If Burke did this, his parents were his legal guardians. It was their responsibility to protect both children. They failed.

Then it was their responsibility to tell the truth and obey the law. Again, they failed.

But what they did accomplish: they had Burke in therapy for many years.

Hopefully, it helped him develop into a responsible, accountable adult.

 

[UKGuy]

LOL...Did I ever told you that I admire British accent?....

Let's go back to your highlighited statement, please:...or it could mean that X-person USED JOHN'S SHIRT to wipe-off JBR, right? ...you see, we have many options here....and

IF X-person wiped JBR with John's shirt THEN
X-person performs the 'staging' AND
((X-person = JR) OR (X-person not = JR))
ENDIF;.........:woohoo:

OpenMind4U,
British accent, which one. Received Pronounciation or one of the countries that make up the UK?


We have debated all this many times before and the general concensus was that it was John that used his shirt, not Patsy or anyone else.


Although you could do a PDI where Patsy borrows johns shirt etc.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Hm. Interesting thought about JR having removed his shirt....

JR said the basement was hot, BTW. Not that we can believe anything he said, but let's say he told the truth on that count...maybe he got hot while down there, with a wool shirt on? So he took it off.

I know when in a crisis situation, I sweat. Not that I've ever been in anything like that kind of crisis. Thank the stars.

BTW, we've had some ideas about the pillowcase and blanket on the sister thread at FFJ today.

I think it's possible we now have explained why the pillow was at the foot of the bed, how JB's blood got on it, and possibly how the blanket fits into this.

As for the ligature, I've heard so many possible theories by now, I'm numb. So I guess I'm going to say whatever happened to cause the strangulation, she got strangled.

But again, I don't see how Burke's DNA can't be on the ligature if he cut it, tied it on, and pulled it. Or alternately, if he tied the "handle" on, hoisted it over something, and then did the hogtied technique: where's his DNA? If he broke the paintbrush, again...DNA.

But if either or both parents did that, as opposed to the head blow, I mean: they wore gloves to keep from leaving fingerprints, just a general wise decision any dolt would think of when committing murder, I'd say. Which inadvertently worked for not leaving cells for future DNA advancements.

Remember, DNA wasn't that developed or well researched in 1996, which is why I think there's so much DNA artifact that it looks like a foreign faction was in the basement, if you go by the DNA.

Good job, peeps. Great job, really.

KoldKase,
I'll have to visit FFJ since this fits in with the fibers from Johns shirt. I just take them at face value, same with Patsy's fibers, e.g. they were deposited at the staging phase.

That is they are on JonBenet because both parents were actively involved.


Now JR's fibers can mean one of two things, he used his shirt to wipe down JonBenet either upstairs as JonBenet lay on the bed, e.g. bloodstained pillow.

Alternatively he used his shirt downstairs in the basement, now in either case I wonder why? Its like why use a lligature when your hand is sufficient?

I'm guessing we can pinpoint where John might have been in the staging sequence?


Yes the ligature generates some ideas, but the blanched area definitely needs some explaining. I'm guessing thats what the garrote is supposed to mask?

p.s.
Just been to FFJ and read about the blanket and pillow stuff, thats seems as good as anything else I've read.

Add in John and his did not mean it remarks it does hang together quite well.


.
.

 

[DeeDee249]

KoldKase,

Yes the ligature generates some ideas, but the blanched area definitely needs some explaining. I'm guessing thats what the garrote is supposed to mask?


.

Impossible. The garrote was made while she was ALIVE (red furrow, bruising, petechiae all occur in a LIVE person, all forensic specialists agree) and the white mark (representing a blanched area which had become fixed) was made after death during the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.

 

[SoBeCzar]

I used to think BR did it. But what bothers me about the gap between the head injury and the strangulation is if BR did it why did they not call 911? At his age it would not be considered he was trying to kill her. And they would know she needed immediate help. Even if one of them had molested her, would they really worry that a DR would be checking that area except to put a catheter in? Wouldn't one rather get her help and fend off the accusations later?
And if BDI and they did not know about it at first I still think that reasoning applies. I guess I am changing my mind, again, and thinking PR or JR did it instead. Mainly because they had time in between the blow and strangulation to get help and reason BR would not get in that much trouble. If one of them did it, yeah, big trouble. A cover up would be needed then. And I don't think JR would cover for PR. But PR would cover for JR.

 

[UKGuy]

Impossible. The garrote was made while she was ALIVE (red furrow, bruising, petechiae all occur in a LIVE person, all forensic specialists agree) and the white mark (representing a blanched area which had become fixed) was made after death during the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.

DeeDee249,
Thanks for that. So can we assume someone removed something from that area around her neck after she was asphyxiated?


.

 

[ozazure]

I can't "see" logistically, how a scream resulting from being sexually assaulted, could be cut short with a blow by the same molester, within seconds. Perhaps they'd punch or smother her mouth with a hand, but they would not be in the position to land the kind of blow that caused that injury. I assume it used a full range of movement, not done by someone close enough to be inflicting injuries to her genitals.

 

[DeeDee249]

I question that the blood on the blanket, gown, and maybe even pillow was planted to make it seem more like jonbenet was taken from her bed. If jonbenet was injured in the kitchen or basement they might not have moved her that much while trying to assess her condition so should have only covered her with a blanket. I even question that those three blood spots might have been from the previous recent assault. There was some questioning of patsy that the urine stained sheets were a week old and that doesn't jive with lhp changing the bed or with patsy's story.

Unless this was also in Kolar's book (I should be getting it soon) I don't recall mention of JB's stained sheets being a week old. LHP said she had last changed JB's bed on the day of the 23rd, the R's Christmas party. When shown the crime photos of the bed, LHP said that those were not the sheets she put on the bed when she was there on the 23rd. So the most those sheets could have been on the bed was 2 days- the 24th and 25th. JB was dead by the 26th and never slept there again after Christmas.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't "see" logistically, how a scream resulting from being sexually assaulted, could be cut short with a blow by the same molester, within seconds. Perhaps they'd punch or smother her mouth with a hand, but they would not be in the position to land the kind of blow that caused that injury. I assume it used a full range of movement, not done by someone close enough to be inflicting injuries to her genitals.

It isn't that hard for me to visualize. There only had to be a few seconds between them. It didn't have to be a scene where she was molested with one hand and bashed with the other. If the weapon was right there (I still believe it was the flashlight) it only would take a few seconds to pick it up and swing it.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Thanks for that. So can we assume someone removed something from that area around her neck after she was asphyxiated?


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No. The cord was in place until it was cut off by the coroner. If there had been something else that had made a mark on JB's neck, the mark from it would be there as well as the cord marks. I do not believe anything else made a mark on JB except that cord. The large, red triangular mark on the left front of her throat is a common mark found in many strangulation victims. It is pretty grisly, but if you Google it you'll likely see photos showing other victims with the nearly identical mark. There used to be a photo of JB next to another strangling victim and there is the identical large triangular red mark.
Sometimes the term "blanching" is confusing. To understand how it works, try it on yourself. In the living, it is not called livor mortis (literal translation-blush, flush or redness of death= where we get the word livid from). Press against your lower leg or arm hard and a white spot will appear under the skin as soon as you pull your finger away. Within seconds, the white spot disappears as the blood rushes back into the tissue. In death, in the EARLY moments after death the white mark appears with the exception that the white mark remains even after what has caused it has been removed.
This is called blanching and the stage of livor mortis is known as Non-Fixed. As livor mortis progresses to the FIXED (non-blanching) stage, the white mark will not appear, as the blood is no longer liquid and cannot be pushed away under the skin.