TH's polygraphs

[BeanE]

There's also this thread for those that may want to discuss more in depth the meaning of the poly results, rather than just whether Terri failed the third poly:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111979"]Does failing the lie detector tests mean anything? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[eyes4crime]

ok... in looking around I found this:

Q: How does a polygraph work?
A: A polygraph examination is a complicated procedure that measures and records several physiological responses such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration, breathing rhythms, body temperature and skin conductivity while the subject is asked and answers a series of questions; untruthful or evasive answers will produce distinctive measurements the examiner can detect. The polygraph also measures physiological changes caused by the sympathetic nervous system during questioning.


http://stevenspolygraph.com/FAQ.aspx

***note there were many other links on this same topic (evasive answers on polygraphs) on google***

***further note again the legal definition of evasive answer: an answer by a defendant that fails to admit or deny the allegations set forth in the complaint

Not completely true nurse. How does the examiner know how medications affect the poly? How many people know that OTC products contain caffeine and will affect the poly? Remember the polygrapher has maybe one course in physiology and No courses in pharmacology, if that. There are no studies that I can find as to how drugs, menopause, or underlying medical conditions affect and throw off the poly. Not all states even require certification. moo

 

[Morag]

I believe that polygraph answers are limited to Yes or No. Failing to admit or to deny might not be an accurate way to describe what is learned during a polygraph.

 

[eyes4crime]

There's also this thread for those that may want to discuss more in depth the meaning of the poly results, rather than just whether Terri failed the third poly:

Does failing the lie detector tests mean anything? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

You're right BeenE - If Terri failed 10 polys it would be meaningless to me. Guess there is nothing for me to discuss. :blowkiss:

 

[nursebeeme]

There's also this thread for those that may want to discuss more in depth the meaning of the poly results, rather than just whether Terri failed the third poly:

Does failing the lie detector tests mean anything? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I just want to say that I am not discussing the mechanics of the poly... was just responding to the portion/link you had in the opening post regarding "evasive"... I wanted to really find out what that word could indicate. Sorry if it is in the wrong thread.

As for drugs etc be able to have an effect on evasive answers I am sure that is a possibility. I would think that no matter what the reason for the answers being deemed evasive that LE would want to re-poly a subject that had those results to see if the results changed on retesting which also ~perhaps~ a reason why they waited another period of time to retest?

MOO

 

[ami]

Since she only took two polygraphs, no matter how many she was scheduled for, I assumed when Kaine said she failed and then used the word "again" (didn't pass) -> he was saying she had the same result "again" as the first time.

I know I am inviting flames here but let me go out on a limb and say that the fact that Terri voluntarily sat through two polygraphs tells us much more than the fact that she supposedly "failed" one or more of them. Most investigators will say that the real value of polygraphs is that people actually believe they can detect lies and therefore will make statements or admissions while hooked up to the machine that they wouldn't make in and ordinary interview. And even though the polygraph itself is not admissible in court because it is generally deemed unreliable, any statements or admissions that a person makes during the polygraph session can be used by the prosecutors at trial.

Everyone know that a polygraph just measures the physiological indicators that can change in response to anxiety on the theory that deception will be accompanied by some level of anxiety. But often it can be the nature and/or the manner of questioning that produces the anxiety, not the answer. We know that the questions put to Terri were so upsetting to her that she went home and vented about them and even walked out, so I'd be shocked if those polygraphs DIDN'T show indications of anxiety. Yet she still showed up to go throuigh the process 3 times. So the question is: is it more likely that a guilty Terri stupidly thought that if she kept going back she'd eventually fool the machine or that an innocent Terri stupidly thought that if she kept going back the machine would clear her?

Guilty people take LDTs all the time. We do LDT for employment in certain areas of our work and about 15 - 20% fail. We are given the questions ahead of time, so why would someone show up who couldn't answer the questions honestly? I don't know, but they do - a lot.

People think they're good liars and can fool the test, or they know if they fail they can use the "those tests are totally unreliable/inadmissible" line to excuse their failure, or they are narcissists who are sure they can beat them, or sociopaths who really can beat them... jeez, I know a website where people are encouraged to take cheating spouses to get a LDT to see if their affairs are actually over and report back time and time again that spouses went in confidently spouting reassurances only to fail. I don't know why they do it, but they do.

I don't know if Terri failed terribly or just mildly, and as far as conviction based on those results I'd agree that's too shaky to fly, but were I LE of course I'd look more closely at her. That's a given when a child's life is at stake.

 

[BeanE]

I just want to say that I am not discussing the mechanics of the poly... was just responding to the portion/link you had in the opening post regarding "evasive"... I wanted to really find out what that word could indicate. Sorry if it is in the wrong thread.

As for drugs etc be able to have an effect on evasive answers I am sure that is a possibility. I would think that no matter what the reason for the answers being deemed evasive that LE would want to re-poly a subject that had those results to see if the results changed on retesting which also ~perhaps~ a reason why they waited another period of time to retest?

MOO

I hadn't even seen your post nurse when I posted that. I've been switching between windows looking at West Wind Farm lol. My post wasn't directed to anyone specific.

 

[STEADFAST]

Does that definition hold true on polygraphs?

ETA: The polygraph machine can't measure deception or evasiveness - it measures physiological responses like the heart rate, blood pressure, and pulse. My blood pressure goes up just seeing my doctor, not because he's good looking but because I get nervous.

How about the person who took a No Doz the night before to complete a project and a couple Excedrin, and had 2 cups of coffee in the AM before going in for the poly. If not used to caffeine, that person would have no idea why he/she failed or was said to be evasive on a poly. Just wondering - how does a machine measure evasiveness? TIA

It might not be the machine; it might be the examiner who would term someone evasive. In other words, if the subject isn't answering the questions that you're asking, you can't really score the polygraph results.
But we don't have any LE statement about Terri's polygraph tests, do we? I'm not a huge believer in polygraphs, and then on top of it, I don't know of LE saying anything about Terri's polygraphs, so the polygraphs in this case aren't important to me. Even if Terri passed, they wouldn't be important to me. I don't feel I need a machine to tell me she's not being forthcoming about Kyron's disappearance or her activities on that day.

 

[MBLover]

I would expect the person who administered the LDT asked Terri a set of questions that had nothing to do with Kyron to gauge her responses for both yes and no questions. My Dad had to take a LDT years ago for a job and he told us the first few questions were like:

Did you drive here today? Are you the President of the United States? Are you married?

 

[nursebeeme]

:blowkiss::grouphug:

I hadn't even seen your post nurse when I posted that. I've been switching between windows looking at West Wind Farm lol. My post wasn't directed to anyone specific.

thanks Beans for the clarification. I just didn't want to be party to derailing your thread in any way.

I just found it very interesting when you started this thread and mentioned the descriptor of "evasive" in describing her poly results and thusly looked up the definition and posted it here in hopes of understanding what it could mean.

Logically if her answers were deemed evasive on the first test (meaning she didn't admit to the crime but didn't deny it either) I can see why LE would want a retest.

Why she walked out of poly number two before being hooked up... wow... I would like to know why that happened.

Also, the other link that I posted pertaining to evasive answers on polys... I would really like to know if the third test came back evasive as well because evasive is not the same as an outright mistruth or lie.

This is a great thread for discussion BeanE. Thank you for starting it

 

[nursebeeme]

Does that definition hold true on polygraphs?

ETA: The polygraph machine can't measure deception or evasiveness - it measures physiological responses like the heart rate, blood pressure, and pulse. My blood pressure goes up just seeing my doctor, not because he's good looking but because I get nervous.

How about the person who took a No Doz the night before to complete a project and a couple Excedrin, and had 2 cups of coffee in the AM before going in for the poly. If not used to caffeine, that person would have no idea why he/she failed or was said to be evasive on a poly. Just wondering - how does a machine measure evasiveness? TIA

just responding to your ETA that I bolded with this link:

Q: How does a polygraph work?
A: A polygraph examination is a complicated procedure that measures and records several physiological responses such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration, breathing rhythms, body temperature and skin conductivity while the subject is asked and answers a series of questions; untruthful or evasive answers will produce distinctive measurements the examiner can detect. The polygraph also measures physiological changes caused by the sympathetic nervous system during questioning.

http://stevenspolygraph.com/FAQ.aspx

 

[BeanE]

:blowkiss::grouphug:

thanks Beans for the clarification. I just didn't want to be party to derailing your thread in any way.

I just found it very interesting when you started this thread and mentioned the descriptor of "evasive" in describing her poly results and thusly looked up the definition and posted it here in hopes of understanding what it could mean.

Logically if her answers were deemed evasive on the first test (meaning she didn't admit to the crime but didn't deny it either) I can see why LE would want a retest.

Why she walked out of poly number two before being hooked up... wow... I would like to know why that happened.

Also, the other link that I posted pertaining to evasive answers on polys... I would really like to know if the third test came back evasive as well because evasive is not the same as an outright mistruth or lie.

This is a great thread for discussion BeanE. Thank you for starting it

:grouphug: nursie

The thing to keep in mind though, is that 'evasive' is not an official term used for poly results. That's just the word the source used.

I just pointed it out, because with the three official results, pass, fail, inconclusive, it seems of the three, inconclusive makes the most sense if someone is using the word 'evasive' to describe the results. Just MOO.

:blowkiss:

 

[STEADFAST]

900 BC Papyrus Vedas :

“A person who gives poisonous answers may be recognized. He does not answer questions, or they are evasive answers; he speaks nonsense, rubs the great toe along the ground, and shivers; his face is discolored; he rubs the roots of the hair with his fingers; and tries by every means to leave the house…..”

I think "evasive" is fail, not inconclusive.

 

[pufnstuf]

900 BC Papyrus Vedas :

“A person who gives poisonous answers may be recognized. He does not answer questions, or they are evasive answers; he speaks nonsense, rubs the great toe along the ground, and shivers; his face is discolored; he rubs the roots of the hair with his fingers; and tries by every means to leave the house…..”

I think "evasive" is fail, not inconclusive.

Great quotation. Adding that to my lecture notes. People say that we have progressed from early civilization, but then we see so much wisdom from the ancients.

 

[Calliope]

bbm
we don't have a defendant but we do have a woman who took two polys and the term evasive was used to describe her test. I posted a link above that shows that the term is used in relation to LDTs fwiw.

bbm

Is that stated on the record by LE conducting the exam? I've not seen that reported as fact.

 

[debirlfan]

There's also the matter of exactly what/how much of the test she failed or was evasive on. I mean, if she was asked if she had killed or stolen Kryon, said no and passed that part of the test, but then failed questions regarding her exact whereabouts that morning, it's a lot different than if she flunked all of the questions. It's possible that if she was driving around at random that morning, she might not even remember exactly where she went - which might account for "evasive."

 

[BeanE]

So, we're at 3 pages, and nobody's found Kaine saying Terri failed the third poly. It's a curious thing that he won't say it, even though so many reporters have tried to pin him down and find out the details.

He doesn't blink an eye about saying she failed the first one. I just can't think of any reason he wouldn't say that she failed the third one. Unless she didn't.

Now why he wouldn't say it was Inconclusive or that she Passed is another story, and one I'm not terribly interested in.

Unless/until something else comes up, I'm going to go on the assumption that Terri's third poly was Inconclusive. I'm not comfortable with going on the assumption that she passed it. Given that Kaine won't say she failed it, I'm not comfortable with going on that assumption either.

Thank you to everyone who's been working on this. I really appreciate it.

 

[BeanE]

900 BC Papyrus Vedas :

“A person who gives poisonous answers may be recognized. He does not answer questions, or they are evasive answers; he speaks nonsense, rubs the great toe along the ground, and shivers; his face is discolored; he rubs the roots of the hair with his fingers; and tries by every means to leave the house…..”

I think "evasive" is fail, not inconclusive.

Wonderful quote, Steadfast.

 

[tragco]

There is no way to know, IMO. From what I understand, in an interview, LE is allowed to lie.

They could have lied to her and told her she failed. From what we know, she vented to her family that she failed. That might only mean LE TOLD her she failed.

FWIW, I equate polygraphs with e-meters. Pffft! I respect other opinions on the subject and there are valid points either way, but this is mine.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/ame]

 

[mtnone]

:blowkiss::grouphug:
Why she walked out of poly number two before being hooked up... wow... I would like to know why that happened.

SBM

I think they go over the questions before you are hooked up to the machine. One of the Terri friends that was questioned mentioned she was there for 5 hours. Interview, the questions, then the test. I figured when DeeDee mentioned having been there for 3 hours, she probably bailed on the poly. I don't blame her. She doesn't have to take one.

I think they use the words pass/fail, but really you are either 'shown to be truthful or shown to not be truthful, or inconclusive'.

What if some of those questions they went over with Terri on the second poly asked about any affairs, questions about the landscaper, or others and that is when she said, no way, and left. I think that is what happened.

I hate how sometimes no or very little training is required to give LDT. I hate how they are so open to interpretation. I really hate how not taking one somehow makes you guilty. Just like getting a lawyer right way seems to somehow make you guilty. I would not take a poly if asked. Think what you want. I will not put my fate in the hands of one person sitting at the machine.

I won't believe anything about them until LE says what happened, and even then I am not sure how I would feel. Can you imagine being asked for 'hours' about the details of that day, your private life before it happened....going over the same questions over and over, being given questions that need more than a yes or no answer, but you can't say anything but yes or no and not having any nerves showing on the LDT? I can't. And remember, she already knew people suspected her from the beginning.

I think that would be an extremely difficult position, guilty or innocent.

There are many shrinks and others that will tell you and teach you how to pass a poly. This is not science at it's best. I put it right along side with hypnosis. It has it's uses, but is very much misused.

MOO