okay this is what I couldn;t figure out. When you are on probation, normal search and seizure rights do not apply. A peacer officer can stop you and search you without probable cause. So, I have been trying to understand why they needed a court order to search the vehicle. I see now that the one on probation did not own the car.
Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo (Part 3)
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Not so fast, I don't think this is all of the story.
Why is the blood inside of the railing?:waitasec:
Were the railings flat? I was thinking the whole time tube like, which the zoos by me are.
Buzz Mills
New Member
Police: Victim drunk during tiger attack
SAN FRANCISCO - One of the three victims of San Francisco Zoo tiger attack was intoxicated and admitted to yelling and waving at the animal while standing atop the railing of the big cat enclosure, police said in court documents filed Thursday. Paul Dhaliwal, 19, told the father of Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, who was killed, that the three yelled and waved at the tiger but insisted they never threw anything into its pen to provoke the cat, according to a search warrant affidavit obtained by the San Francisco Chronicle.
"As a result of this investigation, (police believe) that the tiger may have been taunted/agitated by its eventual victims," according to Inspector Valerie Matthews, who prepared the affidavit. Police believe that "this factor contributed to the tiger escaping from its enclosure and attacking its victims," she said. Sousa's father, Carlos Sousa Sr., said Dhaliwal told him the three stood on a 3-foot-tall metal railing a few feet from the edge of the tiger moat. "When they got down they heard a noise in the bushes, and the tiger was jumping out of the bushes on him (Paul Dhaliwal)," the documents said.
Police found a partial shoe print that matched Paul Dhaliwal's on top of the railing, Matthews said in the documents. The papers said Paul Dhaliwal told Sousa that no one was dangling his legs over the enclosure. Authorities believe the tiger leaped or climbed out of the enclosure, which had a wall 4 feet shorter than the recommended minimum. The affidavit also cites multiple reports of a group of young men taunting animals at the zoo, the Chronicle reported. Mark Geragos, an attorney for the Dhaliwal brothers, did not immediately return a call late Thursday by The Associated Press for comment. He has repeatedly said they did not taunt the tiger. Calls to Sousa and Michael Cardoza, an attorney for the Sousa family, also weren't returned.
Toxicology results for Dhaliwal showed that his blood alcohol level was 0.16 — twice the legal limit for driving, according to the affidavit. His 24-year-old brother, Kulbir, and Sousa also had alcohol in their blood but within the legal limit, Matthews wrote. All three also had marijuana in their systems, Matthews said. Kulbir Dhaliwal told police that the three had smoked pot and each had "a couple shots of vodka" before leaving San Jose for the zoo on Christmas Day, the affidavit said. Police found a small amount of marijuana in Kulbir Dhaliwal's 2002 BMW, which the victims rode to the zoo, as well as a partially filled bottle of vodka, according to court documents. Investigators also recovered messages and images from the cell phones, but apparently nothing incriminating in connection with the tiger attack, the Chronicle reported.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080118/ap_on_re_us/tiger_attacks
SAN FRANCISCO - One of the three victims of San Francisco Zoo tiger attack was intoxicated and admitted to yelling and waving at the animal while standing atop the railing of the big cat enclosure, police said in court documents filed Thursday. Paul Dhaliwal, 19, told the father of Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, who was killed, that the three yelled and waved at the tiger but insisted they never threw anything into its pen to provoke the cat, according to a search warrant affidavit obtained by the San Francisco Chronicle.
"As a result of this investigation, (police believe) that the tiger may have been taunted/agitated by its eventual victims," according to Inspector Valerie Matthews, who prepared the affidavit. Police believe that "this factor contributed to the tiger escaping from its enclosure and attacking its victims," she said. Sousa's father, Carlos Sousa Sr., said Dhaliwal told him the three stood on a 3-foot-tall metal railing a few feet from the edge of the tiger moat. "When they got down they heard a noise in the bushes, and the tiger was jumping out of the bushes on him (Paul Dhaliwal)," the documents said.
Police found a partial shoe print that matched Paul Dhaliwal's on top of the railing, Matthews said in the documents. The papers said Paul Dhaliwal told Sousa that no one was dangling his legs over the enclosure. Authorities believe the tiger leaped or climbed out of the enclosure, which had a wall 4 feet shorter than the recommended minimum. The affidavit also cites multiple reports of a group of young men taunting animals at the zoo, the Chronicle reported. Mark Geragos, an attorney for the Dhaliwal brothers, did not immediately return a call late Thursday by The Associated Press for comment. He has repeatedly said they did not taunt the tiger. Calls to Sousa and Michael Cardoza, an attorney for the Sousa family, also weren't returned.
Toxicology results for Dhaliwal showed that his blood alcohol level was 0.16 — twice the legal limit for driving, according to the affidavit. His 24-year-old brother, Kulbir, and Sousa also had alcohol in their blood but within the legal limit, Matthews wrote. All three also had marijuana in their systems, Matthews said. Kulbir Dhaliwal told police that the three had smoked pot and each had "a couple shots of vodka" before leaving San Jose for the zoo on Christmas Day, the affidavit said. Police found a small amount of marijuana in Kulbir Dhaliwal's 2002 BMW, which the victims rode to the zoo, as well as a partially filled bottle of vodka, according to court documents. Investigators also recovered messages and images from the cell phones, but apparently nothing incriminating in connection with the tiger attack, the Chronicle reported.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080118/ap_on_re_us/tiger_attacks
Buzz Mills
New Member
Dead teen's father says victim told him tiger was taunted
ZOO OFFICIALS POINT TO BLOOD-STAINED SIGN
One of three San Jose youths mauled by a tiger at San Francisco Zoo told the father of the boy slain in the Christmas attack that they had been yelling and waving at the animal while standing on the railing outside its grotto, according to news reports.
But, then, in an interview with San Francisco police, Paul Dhaliwal, 19, denied throwing anything into the enclosure or antagonizing the animal in any way, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Thursday.
The interview - and the account by the father of Carlos Sousa Jr. of San Jose - were part of the affidavit San Francisco police used to obtain a search warrant for the car and cell phones of Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and his 23-year-old brother, Kulbir. The affidavit was filed in court late Thursday. "As a result of this investigation," police believe "that the tiger may have been taunted/agitated by its eventual victims," police inspector Valerie Matthews wrote in the affidavit. Police believe that "this factor contributed to the tiger escaping from its enclosure and attacking its victims," she said.
In another revelation Thursday, zoo officials said police removed a bloodied sign and post from the tiger exhibit as potential evidence during their investigation the day after the attack. Sam Singer, spokesman for the zoo, told the Mercury News that the sign had been about 18 inches in from the middle of the railing around the tiger exhibit, in an area "where the public is prohibited to go." The location is also near the area outside the railing where the body of 17-year-old Carlos was found. A San Francisco police spokesman would say only that "the police department has not released that information" about the bloody sign. But Singer said finding a sign with blood on it - inside the exhibit - on the night of the mauling "would suggest that one or more of the young men was on that side of the railing."
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_8006811
ZOO OFFICIALS POINT TO BLOOD-STAINED SIGN
One of three San Jose youths mauled by a tiger at San Francisco Zoo told the father of the boy slain in the Christmas attack that they had been yelling and waving at the animal while standing on the railing outside its grotto, according to news reports.
But, then, in an interview with San Francisco police, Paul Dhaliwal, 19, denied throwing anything into the enclosure or antagonizing the animal in any way, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Thursday.
The interview - and the account by the father of Carlos Sousa Jr. of San Jose - were part of the affidavit San Francisco police used to obtain a search warrant for the car and cell phones of Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and his 23-year-old brother, Kulbir. The affidavit was filed in court late Thursday. "As a result of this investigation," police believe "that the tiger may have been taunted/agitated by its eventual victims," police inspector Valerie Matthews wrote in the affidavit. Police believe that "this factor contributed to the tiger escaping from its enclosure and attacking its victims," she said.
In another revelation Thursday, zoo officials said police removed a bloodied sign and post from the tiger exhibit as potential evidence during their investigation the day after the attack. Sam Singer, spokesman for the zoo, told the Mercury News that the sign had been about 18 inches in from the middle of the railing around the tiger exhibit, in an area "where the public is prohibited to go." The location is also near the area outside the railing where the body of 17-year-old Carlos was found. A San Francisco police spokesman would say only that "the police department has not released that information" about the bloody sign. But Singer said finding a sign with blood on it - inside the exhibit - on the night of the mauling "would suggest that one or more of the young men was on that side of the railing."
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_8006811
kgeaux
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Lots of new information coming out now.
LE is saying only that this information hasn't been released yet....they aren't denying that they picked up the sign, so it seems to me as though they do have the sign. Now whether the blood on the sign is human or matches any of the three 'maulees' remains to be seen.
Police have confirmed the footprint, and furthur confirmed that it matched Paul's shoe. They have not confirmed dangling, and the only objects they have confirmed are one smooth stone and a steel washer. We know that Paul was drunk, that is confirmed; and we know Paul's footprint was ontop of the railing. I'd like to see the railing, I really wish I could. Is it broad, something you could walk on 'tightwire' style? Paul describes walking on the railing----I can't believe he even remembers that, with the amount of alcohol in his blood! Is his story plausible?
Walking along the railing, yelling, even throwing one small, smooth stone and a steel washer (if they threw them) is going to fall far short of what the zoo is going to need to mitigate their damages. The tiger should not have been able to reach the railing. Period. The zoo is going to need Paul's blood on that sign which was located in the grassy area between the moat and the rail. Even then, it's going to be arguable that the tiger should not have had access to the grassy area. Because if Tatiana could reach the grassy area unaided, it's just a short hop over the railing to freedom. Now if there was some of Paul's blood on the moat wall, THAT would mitigate the damages, because he would have dangled his leg into the moat. Did Paul have injuries to his leg?
LE is saying only that this information hasn't been released yet....they aren't denying that they picked up the sign, so it seems to me as though they do have the sign. Now whether the blood on the sign is human or matches any of the three 'maulees' remains to be seen.
Police have confirmed the footprint, and furthur confirmed that it matched Paul's shoe. They have not confirmed dangling, and the only objects they have confirmed are one smooth stone and a steel washer. We know that Paul was drunk, that is confirmed; and we know Paul's footprint was ontop of the railing. I'd like to see the railing, I really wish I could. Is it broad, something you could walk on 'tightwire' style? Paul describes walking on the railing----I can't believe he even remembers that, with the amount of alcohol in his blood! Is his story plausible?
Walking along the railing, yelling, even throwing one small, smooth stone and a steel washer (if they threw them) is going to fall far short of what the zoo is going to need to mitigate their damages. The tiger should not have been able to reach the railing. Period. The zoo is going to need Paul's blood on that sign which was located in the grassy area between the moat and the rail. Even then, it's going to be arguable that the tiger should not have had access to the grassy area. Because if Tatiana could reach the grassy area unaided, it's just a short hop over the railing to freedom. Now if there was some of Paul's blood on the moat wall, THAT would mitigate the damages, because he would have dangled his leg into the moat. Did Paul have injuries to his leg?
ember
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They tease, taunt and throw things, yet, it is Tatiana who pays the ultimate price for doing what comes natural to her.
Well, at least she died with her boots on.
People who are mean to animals just suck.
Well, at least she died with her boots on.
People who are mean to animals just suck.
LinasK
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No, IIRC from being there, I think they are flat, not tube-like. Most likely they got inside the enclosure-the bloody sign was 18 inches inside, not blood-splatter from the attack, which is what you know Geragos & Cardoza will claim. The brothers have clearly shown they are liars, I don't trust anything they say.
JDB
Tybee you will never be forgotten
You are correct they are flat as you can palce your water on it.I read that there was no pics of them inside the enclosure like I had hoped But funny how all of the sudden the story changed as soon as they heard the police could search.
Seeker
Former Member
If they admitted to taunting her by yelling and waving (although they initially lied about it all) then I'm sure (my gut feeling) that they were doing much more than just that. They'll only now admit to "standing" on the railing (although blood INSIDE the enclosure may prove that to be a lie as well) and yelling....
Sorry, but I honestly doubt she would work so hard to get out of the enclosure if they were just yelling at her.
Her enclosure is no different to her than our living room is to us. The big difference is she had no other rooms to escape from them into nor could she call police & security to report them...
People are more unpredictible and dangerous than any born in captivity "wild" animal that I've ever known. At least we know why wild animals kill, yet we still can't explain why some people do without any apparent valid reason behind it.
Sorry, but I honestly doubt she would work so hard to get out of the enclosure if they were just yelling at her.
Her enclosure is no different to her than our living room is to us. The big difference is she had no other rooms to escape from them into nor could she call police & security to report them...
People are more unpredictible and dangerous than any born in captivity "wild" animal that I've ever known. At least we know why wild animals kill, yet we still can't explain why some people do without any apparent valid reason behind it.
LinasK
Verified insider- Mark Dribin case
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By Sharon Noguchi and Lisa Fernandez
Mercury News
Article Launched: 01/18/2008 12:53:16 PM PST
Two experts said today that yelling and waving hands at a tiger wouldn't be enough to provoke it to attack, and that not even throwing rocks would necessarily mean the cat would be angered enough to leave its home and track down its taunter.
What might fuel a tiger to jump 12 1/2 feet to get outside its pen?
"Hitting it in the face, or poking any animal repeatedly," answered Diana McCourt, president of the Siberian Tiger Conservation in Gambier, Ohio. And, of course, she added: "Urinating would provoke it, too." The Mercury News sought tiger trainers' opinions following a San Francisco police search warrant made public Thursday, where a police affidavit states Paul Dhaliwal, 19, of San Jose acknowledged that he, his brother, Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, and friend, Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, were "waving their hands and yelling at the tiger," on Christmas Day at the San Francisco Zoo. That's the day that Tatiana, a 250-pound Siberian tiger, leaped from her grotto, killing Carlos and injuring the Dhaliwals. more at link:http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8010609?source=most_viewed
Mercury News
Article Launched: 01/18/2008 12:53:16 PM PST
Two experts said today that yelling and waving hands at a tiger wouldn't be enough to provoke it to attack, and that not even throwing rocks would necessarily mean the cat would be angered enough to leave its home and track down its taunter.
What might fuel a tiger to jump 12 1/2 feet to get outside its pen?
"Hitting it in the face, or poking any animal repeatedly," answered Diana McCourt, president of the Siberian Tiger Conservation in Gambier, Ohio. And, of course, she added: "Urinating would provoke it, too." The Mercury News sought tiger trainers' opinions following a San Francisco police search warrant made public Thursday, where a police affidavit states Paul Dhaliwal, 19, of San Jose acknowledged that he, his brother, Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, and friend, Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, were "waving their hands and yelling at the tiger," on Christmas Day at the San Francisco Zoo. That's the day that Tatiana, a 250-pound Siberian tiger, leaped from her grotto, killing Carlos and injuring the Dhaliwals. more at link:http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8010609?source=most_viewed
jilly
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I doubt it too. I keep thinking about what the Vet said: Quote:
"An autopsy conducted by a zoo veterinarian on the Siberian tiger after police shot it to death showed that the animal had been "very determined to get out," Matthews said. Its claws were broken and splintered by clambering up the concrete moat wall, Matthews quoted the veterinarian as saying."
txsvicki
Active Member
If the sign is said to be eighteen inches from the railing it's probably more like eight inches. I wonder if Paul was standing on the railing and keeping his balance by holding onto that sign. The tiger could have crept up in the bushes and jumped out onto him, leaving blood on the sign. I also don't see how yelling could make a tiger attack, but I would think that any of the three could have had enough sense to see that the fence was so short and if the tiger was right there, they would not be taunting, they would be getting the heck out of there. I'll bet the guys were being a little loud and obnoxious and didn't even know that Tiger was creeping there in the bushes beside the fence. If the Tiger was that close, close enough to be poked or urinated on, then she must have been getting up by that fence many many times and was a timebomb waiting to pounce.
FlowerChild
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I don't think Tatiana had EVER been out of her enclosure before that day - I think the boys did something to make her want to get out - and I don't think she just pounced on them silently by surprise from the side area/bushes like they said. Tatiana died with a stomach full of meat she had just eaten, she wasn't hungry or motivated to get up in that condition. Tatiana broke every claw and scraped her paws trying to get out and get to those men - and she didn't do that silently or for no reason. They DID SOMETHING more than walk on the wall - Tatiana saw humans outside that enclosure every day -screaming crying kids, noisy crowds, people getting as close as possible to take pictures and I DOUBT these men were the 1st to climb up on that wall and act stupid. Tatiana had a reason to hurt herself to get to them, I don't know what it was, but it was NOT, IMO, walking on the wall and being loud.
I am thinking they may have urinated on her, and hit her when she tried to come at them or one of the fell into or had gotten into the actual habitat with her. Whatever it was, she was very very distressed - and Tigers with a full stomach that were raised in captivity around people every day don't stress over the usual assinine behavior of zoo vistors.
My Opinion
txsvicki
Active Member
Do you suppose that the two brothers could have pushed Paul over into the enclosure while he was standing on the fence?
txsvicki,
That's been the theory of a colleague of mine.
His gut feeling is that all 3 of the boys were drinking and fooling around aggresiviely at the tiger area. He thinks the brothers either dared the victim to enter the tiger's area or perhaps the brothers pushed him.
That's been the theory of a colleague of mine.
His gut feeling is that all 3 of the boys were drinking and fooling around aggresiviely at the tiger area. He thinks the brothers either dared the victim to enter the tiger's area or perhaps the brothers pushed him.
Excellent post Seeker, one worth repeating.
Bingo....
southcitymom
Well-Known Member
Neither do I, txsvicki. I am very interested to piece together what happened. I do believe these guys were drunk and being irritating and obnoxious (to both Tatiana and other visitors to the zoo), but I keep thinking - what if a group of young boys had been screaming and being obnoxious at the Tiger exhibit - I'm sure that's happened before. The tiger should not have been able to escape.
She was a beautiful, amazing creature, and I'm so sad that her doing what came naturally got her killed and a human killed and other humans wounded. It's the zoo's responsibility to make certain this can't happen.