Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo (Part 3)

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The zoo spokesman said that it's not a good idea to drink, not a good idea to get high on dope, and not a good idea to taunt a man eating tiger. I'd say it's also not a good idea to put a man eating tiger behind a three foot fence. I'd never have even kept my lovable collie Cheerie Blossom behind a three foot fence because I wouldn't want her getting out. A huge black lab jumped our 6 foot fence and got her pregnant and he's not even a man eating tiger. A professor and expert said that the fence should have been 4 feet higher. Also, the reports of other taunting that day weren't done by the guys. It was a man and woman taunting the lions and a group of 4 or 5 boys throwing pebbles at the penguins.

http://ap.lubbockonline.com/pstories/us/20080118/237983714.shtml
 
Neither do I, txsvicki. I am very interested to piece together what happened. I do believe these guys were drunk and being irritating and obnoxious (to both Tatiana and other visitors to the zoo), but I keep thinking - what if a group of young boys had been screaming and being obnoxious at the Tiger exhibit - I'm sure that's happened before. The tiger should not have been able to escape.

She was a beautiful, amazing creature, and I'm so sad that her doing what came naturally got her killed and a human killed and other humans wounded. It's the zoo's responsibility to make certain this can't happen.
I like your post. I feel bad that Tatiana died but then again, she's free now. She would have had to spend the rest of her days in captivity.

The whole thing is a tragedy. What is going on in our world to make teenagers have a need to drink and get high and go to the zoo to taunt a tiger? In a nearby town where I live, there have been some shootings and the people of that town are not going to take it anymore and are standing up for their town. I think that's awesome and maybe they will set an example.

Here's an article from the local newspaper:

http://www.thedailyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080117/NEWS01/801170344/1002/NEWS17


I think it's great! People finally saying "enough" to crime.
 
I like your post. I feel bad that Tatiana died but then again, she's free now. She would have had to spend the rest of her days in captivity....

I've had these thoughts too. Happy. And I freely admit that I love to go see the animals at the zoo - we have a membership to the on here. Still, it never leaves my mind that they would be happier out of captivity.
 
The zoo spokesman said that it's not a good idea to drink, not a good idea to get high on dope, and not a good idea to taunt a man eating tiger. I'd say it's also not a good idea to put a man eating tiger behind a three foot fence. I'd never have even kept my lovable collie Cheerie Blossom behind a three foot fence because I wouldn't want her getting out. A huge black lab jumped our 6 foot fence and got her pregnant and he's not even a man eating tiger. A professor and expert said that the fence should have been 4 feet higher. Also, the reports of other taunting that day weren't done by the guys. It was a man and woman taunting the lions and a group of 4 or 5 boys throwing pebbles at the penguins.

http://ap.lubbockonline.com/pstories/us/20080118/237983714.shtml

The 3' Fence is the one OUTSIDE the actual enclosure, they are usually solid and it's set several feet outside the actual barrier fence or wall because it's supposed to keep people (like these three) from getting too close to the actual fence or barrier that contains the animal. If it is higher you would have to replace it with expensive (And hard to clean) plexiglass because at 6-7' tall, no-one would be able to see over it at all otherwise.

It is the INSIDE fence that is recommended by the AZA to be 16.5 feet high or higher - Tatiana's was 12.5 feet high not including the "moat/pit" in front of it.

I just read an article that ONE IN FOUR Zoo Visitors taunt, tease and attempt to agitate the predators and bigger animals when they are at the zoo. Every Zoo should have a docent (in plain clothes) outside every exhibit area AND monitored video cameras on the exhibits at all times...TO PROTECT THE ANIMALS. Then if something happens (even after hours) they would have the TAPE to prove the circumstances. The problem is most Zoos are barely making it as it is $$$ wise and cameras require purchase, wiring set-up and then maintenance and someone to monitor them all day. BUT At least more docents and cameras would be cheaper and faster to implement in the short run - while enclosures and habitats are rebuilt and renovated.

Maybe some celebrity or Bill Gates would like to donate the $$$ so Zoos can afford modern technology to keep their visitors and animals as safe as possible. Maybe the zoos could offer "camera sponsorships" for fundraising - "your donation of $500 keeps Leo the Lion safe and monitored for a year"? I'd do it right now - in Tatiana's memory.

My Opinion
 
Here is a link for the search warrant and supporting affidavit by Valerie Matthews (SFPD). Affidavit is an interesting read. There were witnesses saying that many animals were taunted that day - lions (girl and guy throwing rocks :eek:), monkeys, birds, gorillas (4 or 5 young men). One witness called in anonymously saying she was at the Tiger Exhibit and saw 3 young men with one of them leaning over the rail doing something with his hands.

Paul is 5'9; Kublir 5'7 and Carlos 6'2.

http://www.bayareanewsgroup.com/multimedia/mn/news/tiger_searchwarrant_011808.pdf
 
Here is a link for the search warrant and supporting affidavit by Valerie Matthews (SFPD). Affidavit is an interesting read. There were witnesses saying that many animals were taunted that day - lions (girl and guy throwing rocks :eek:), monkeys, birds, gorillas (4 or 5 young men). One witness called in anonymously saying she was at the Tiger Exhibit and saw 3 young men with one of them leaning over the rail doing something with his hands.

Paul is 5'9; Kublir 5'7 and Carlos 6'2.

http://www.bayareanewsgroup.com/multimedia/mn/news/tiger_searchwarrant_011808.pdf
thanks for all your updates and links J-1.:blowkiss:
 
The police investigation into the tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo will soon be reclassified as "inactive" after a search failed to turn up evidence that the victims taunted the animal or committed other crimes, authorities said Friday.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/19/MNKDUHQRQ.DTL&tsp=1

Note the poll results on the link.
the poll is very telling imo-
your next link really gets me--- why do people go to a zoo if all they want to do, is agitate the animals- :mad:
 
thanks for all your updates and links J-1.:blowkiss:

YW!:blowkiss:

the poll is very telling imo-
your next link really gets me--- why do people go to a zoo if all they want to do, is agitate the animals- :mad:

It got to me too! I can see people wanting to harmlessly interact with the animal but throwing rocks??:furious:
 
I just read an article that ONE IN FOUR Zoo Visitors taunt, tease and attempt to agitate the predators and bigger animals when they are at the zoo. Every Zoo should have a docent (in plain clothes) outside every exhibit area AND monitored video cameras on the exhibits at all times...TO PROTECT THE ANIMALS. Then if something happens (even after hours) they would have the TAPE to prove the circumstances. The problem is most Zoos are barely making it as it is $$$ wise and cameras require purchase, wiring set-up and then maintenance and someone to monitor them all day. BUT At least more docents and cameras would be cheaper and faster to implement in the short run - while enclosures and habitats are rebuilt and renovated.

Maybe some celebrity or Bill Gates would like to donate the $$$ so Zoos can afford modern technology to keep their visitors and animals as safe as possible. Maybe the zoos could offer "camera sponsorships" for fundraising - "your donation of $500 keeps Leo the Lion safe and monitored for a year"? I'd do it right now - in Tatiana's memory.

My Opinion

I agree about the money and cameras. But they're not going to go to this expense when only 1 in 4 taunt the animals because the figure is probably less for those who actually harm the animals with rocks and other objects. Plus, no tiger has escaped in 67 years!

I think at the very least they should have a presence of security at these places. Look what the affidavit for the SW said people were doing! I wonder how many security guards are employed at zoos. Probably not many - also because of cost.
 
I remember seeing the alligators at the Bronx Zoo, and there was a sign saying, "Please don't throw pennies at the alligators." Meanwhile, they were SURROUNDED by them! (They were in a pond below where the people stood, and they weren't moving--I have to admit, I was tempted!)
 
I don't think Tatiana had EVER been out of her enclosure before that day - I think the boys did something to make her want to get out - and I don't think she just pounced on them silently by surprise from the side area/bushes like they said. Tatiana died with a stomach full of meat she had just eaten, she wasn't hungry or motivated to get up in that condition. Tatiana broke every claw and scraped her paws trying to get out and get to those men - and she didn't do that silently or for no reason. They DID SOMETHING more than walk on the wall - Tatiana saw humans outside that enclosure every day -screaming crying kids, noisy crowds, people getting as close as possible to take pictures and I DOUBT these men were the 1st to climb up on that wall and act stupid. Tatiana had a reason to hurt herself to get to them, I don't know what it was, but it was NOT, IMO, walking on the wall and being loud.

I am thinking they may have urinated on her, and hit her when she tried to come at them or one of the fell into or had gotten into the actual habitat with her. Whatever it was, she was very very distressed - and Tigers with a full stomach that were raised in captivity around people every day don't stress over the usual assinine behavior of zoo vistors.



My Opinion

I am an animal lover, this is no big secret.
Any human who would urinate on a tiger deserves whatever punishment that said tiger is capable of dishing out. RIP Tatiana, you deserved so much better than being taunted by the inhuman garbage that was present on Christmas Day 2007.
I wholly agree with 's sentiment........way too many young punks and far too few Siberian tigers in this world!
 
The police investigation into the tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo will soon be reclassified as "inactive" after a search failed to turn up evidence that the victims taunted the animal or committed other crimes, authorities said Friday.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/19/MNKDUHQRQ.DTL&tsp=1

Note the poll results on the link.


I wonder what is really going on here.....politics/money issues/who knows what?
Seems like another instance of criminal injustice in the system to me!
 
They tease, taunt and throw things, yet, it is Tatiana who pays the ultimate price for doing what comes natural to her.

Well, at least she died with her boots on.


People who are mean to animals just suck.


Tatiana's death could easily have been prevented by having the wall built to the properly recommended height.

There will always be a sub-class of humans who think it is "fun" to tease zoo animals: as the police investigator in this case was quoted as saying, the amount of taunting here is not known to have surpassed that which kindergarteners are apt to do. (That quote from her may have to be ammended, but when the investigation was closed the FIRST time, this is what she said.)

Since it is KNOWN that humanity includes both kindergarteners AND stupid adults, it is up to the zoo to ensure the safety of both its visitors and its animals. This zoo failed on both counts, and I believe Tatiana's death is more reasonably laid at the door of the zoo.

People who are mean to animals DO suck. Totally agree!
 
The zoo spokesman said that it's not a good idea to drink, not a good idea to get high on dope, and not a good idea to taunt a man eating tiger. I'd say it's also not a good idea to put a man eating tiger behind a three foot fence. I'd never have even kept my lovable collie Cheerie Blossom behind a three foot fence because I wouldn't want her getting out. A huge black lab jumped our 6 foot fence and got her pregnant and he's not even a man eating tiger. A professor and expert said that the fence should have been 4 feet higher. Also, the reports of other taunting that day weren't done by the guys. It was a man and woman taunting the lions and a group of 4 or 5 boys throwing pebbles at the penguins.

http://ap.lubbockonline.com/pstories/us/20080118/237983714.shtml

Good read. A little more from your link:

"Taunting or not, I just think it's incumbent on the AZA and the zoos to have taunt-proof cages," said wildlife biologist Marc Bekoff, a professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. "If you are going to have an animal like a Siberian tiger or other predators, you have to protect the public."

Bekoff said taunting is common at zoos. He said students in his animal behavior courses during the 1990s found that 20 to 25 percent of zoo visitors taunted the animals — especially predators such as lions and tigers — by mimicking, yelling, throwing things at them or otherwise aggravating them.

"This is not an isolated incident and the zoo is trying to wrangle itself out," he said. "The kids were not responsible for Tatiana being shipped around like a couch. The kids were not responsible for the enclosure being inadequate. The kids are responsible for the taunting."

Stephen Zawistowski, science adviser for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, also said taunting probably is not the sole reason for the attack.

"When something like this happens, what you find is it's almost never that there was one single thing that went wrong," said Zawistowski. "It's a cascade of things.

"The wall wasn't a height that was appropriate; there was an animal with a past history; there was nobody there to keep track of it; there were people there harassing it. When you click down that list and they all align, you end up with a tragedy," he said.



The "kids" as he calls them are responsible for the taunting. The ZOO is responsible for Tatiana's escape.
 
The police investigation into the tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo will soon be reclassified as "inactive" after a search failed to turn up evidence that the victims taunted the animal or committed other crimes, authorities said Friday.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/19/MNKDUHQRQ.DTL&tsp=1

Note the poll results on the link.

The poll shows that the zoo's constant and loud attempt to blame the brothers and Carlos for the shortcomings of the enclosure has been successful. I'll never understand why people don't recognize smoke screens when they see them, why peope will continue to swallow every little worm the zoo dangles when so much of what the zoo has said has been proven to be lies. It is very interesting, isn't it, that NOTHING in the car was linked to taunting? After the zoo made such a huge deal out of friends of the brothers attempting to pick up the car? After "leaking" the information that objects in the car would be linked to objects found in the enclosure? NO pictures were found on the cell phones implicating the brothers or Carlos, after all the suggestive innuendos and hints the zoo spokesman has dropped. So we are left with lots and lots of smoke, and very little fact.

But here's a fact in your linked article that the zoo hasn't been as aggressively advertising: Police conducted the search after the case had stalled for other reasons. The Dhaliwal brothers, who talked with investigators several days after suffering head wounds in the attack, would not agree to further questioning. Also, the zoo's operations director, Jesse Vargas, blocked police from talking to zoo authorities after initial interviews, citing attorneys' advice, police said in their search warrant affidavit. Seems to me like the zoo didn't want all the facts known.


Here is a link for the search warrant and supporting affidavit by Valerie Matthews (SFPD). Affidavit is an interesting read. There were witnesses saying that many animals were taunted that day - lions (girl and guy throwing rocks :eek:), monkeys, birds, gorillas (4 or 5 young men). One witness called in anonymously saying she was at the Tiger Exhibit and saw 3 young men with one of them leaning over the rail doing something with his hands.

Paul is 5'9; Kublir 5'7 and Carlos 6'2.

http://www.bayareanewsgroup.com/multimedia/mn/news/tiger_searchwarrant_011808.pdf


Thank you for all the links you've supplied!

I notice in the affidavit that the police, when examining the tiger enclosure, saw only a pine cone and small branch----and they couldn't verify how long they'd been in the enclosure because the zoo refused to cooperate. The zoo told officers the next day that they'd found two small stones and a washer in the enclosure also, but the same applies: no cooperation from the zoo, so the officer didn't know how long the items had been in the enclosure.

What ever the young men did, it doesn't seem to have involved throwing many items into the enclosure. Even if they threw all 5 of the items noted above, that's not much. (It's too much, you understand, but not enough to explain why Tatiana would leap the wall.)

The affidavit also does not mention the bloody sign. I am left wondering if the sign did indeed have blood smeared on it, and if it was confiscated by police. I guess since the earlier link mentioned the investigation being closed again, the sign was another puff of smoke.
 
I am an animal lover, this is no big secret.
Any human who would urinate on a tiger deserves whatever punishment that said tiger is capable of dishing out. RIP Tatiana, you deserved so much better than being taunted by the inhuman garbage that was present on Christmas Day 2007.
I wholly agree with 's sentiment........way too many young punks and far too few Siberian tigers in this world!
I totally agree with you. The young men wanted to get a rise out of the tiger and they did. They wanted excitement and they got it. Too bad the tiger had to die for their entertainment.
 
It's an interesting case with a lot of stuff in the mix. I previously thought the zoo would settle out of court for PR reasons, but now I think this case may very well end up in civil court. The SF Zoo will be looking to reduce the damages award by citing comparative negligence. (Dang, I sound like a silly lawyer!).
 
I was listening to local talk radio this weekend and surprising, the very liberal Christine Craft (sp?) on KGO was ranting against the young men.

Interesting things I hadn't heard before and, sorry, haven't been able to keep up with the whole thread but...
They possibly urinated on the tiger which allowed her to track them?

They were able to delete cell phone evidence

There was a 4th young man, (there is another "DaliWali" brother) according to witnesses and he may have been able to get rid of evidence.

Regardless, the public is very against these men.

Should the brothers be held liable for wrongful death? Did they push Carlos in front of the tiger and then run like babies and abondon him?

Interesting thoughts.
 

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