Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[fred&edna]

Not used to purchase a beacon !?
Or a back up plan A, B, C …beyond the floaties IMO

No, no. They are two different companies! You've misunderstood. The RMS Titanic Inc is NOT the same company that owns and operates OceanGate... whatever profits RMS Titanic Inc make/made do not benefit OceanGate.

Easy to confuse but they are separate.

 

[Glimma0927]

Interesting, you would think that the company had some sort of plan of what to do in a "worse case scenario". And it appears to me, that there is no plan...

Just rely on United States and other countries to pony up the cash and resources for an underwater rescue. Great plan. Not.

Sadly, this does not surprise me. I used to do workplace safety inspections and consultations. When I would ask the business owners and executives what their plan was for catastrophic emergencies (i.e. confined space rescue), their answer was "call 911" without verifying whether or not their local emergency services would have the equipment and training to provide whatever emergency service they needed. In this case, their only plan was "call the coast guard."

 

[JennieM]

“There are 10 submarines in the world that can go 12,000 ft and deeper,” Kohnen said. “All of them are certified except the Oceangate submersible.”

OceanGate declined safety review of Titan submersible, industry leader says​

From CNN's Greg Wallace

OceanGate Expeditions, which operated the submersible that went missing Sunday on its way to view the Titanic wreckage, strayed from industry norms by declining a voluntary, rigorous safety review of its the vessel known as Titan, according to an industry leader.
If OceanGate had pursued a certification review “some of this may have been avoided,” Will Kohnen of the Marine Technology Society told CNN on Wednesday.

Kohnen is president of the group’s submarine committee and described to CNN a 2018 conversation he had with OceanGate founder Stockton Rush addressing the society’s concerns.

“We agreed to disagree,” Kohnen said.

Kohnen drafted a letter to Rush on behalf of the group that outlined the concerns.

“You are taking on a lot of risk and the risk you are taking might affect the entire industry,” Kohnen said, characterizing his concerns at the time. “We have a very good track record of safety and if something happens it would be a big impact to just…our safety record, and everybody had concerns about that.”

“We told him that he should consider certifying it,” Kohnen said, describing the certification as the “gold standard” for safety.

In a 2019 blog post on OceanGate's website, the company said classing agencies "do not ensure that operators adhere to proper operating procedures and decision-making processes — two areas that are much more important for mitigating risks at sea. The vast majority of marine (and aviation) accidents are a result of operator error, not mechanical failure," it said.

“There are 10 submarines in the world that can go 12,000 ft and deeper,” Kohnen said.
“All of them are certified except the Oceangate submersible.”

He also said a working beacon on the vessel would help searchers find it quicker "so that someone could direct themselves in that direction.”

OceanGate did not respond to a request from CNN to comment on the letter, which was obtained by CNN and first reported by the New York Times.

June 21, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub search news

A massive search operation is underway in an area twice the size of Connecticut for the submersible that went missing Sunday — as officials fear there's less than a day's worth of oxygen left on board the craft.

edition.cnn.com

 

[cuffem]

Not used to purchase a beacon !?
Or a back up plan A, B, C …beyond the floaties IMO

So far I have not read about any research equipment on Titan nor any kind of research being conducted on board.

 

[arielilane]

What a headline. Sadly, it's true. Likely need a miracle at this point. Amazing at the resources pulled together from around the world so quickly. Wishing this global team the best. (via Daily Mail)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671634094587772930

https://twitter.com/WFLAJosh

 

[arielilane]

A submersible used to take people to see the wreck of the Titanic has gone missing and a search is ongoing. The Titan had 96 hours of oxygen for the five people on board when it started its expedition - here’s a timeline of what’s happened so far

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671631809388445697

 

[Cedars]

It truly is astounding that Titan was not tested or inspected by anyone outside of the company given the extreme and unprecedented conditions it (and its passengers, aka "mission specialists") would be subjected to.

Although OceanGate claimed in a court filing that the University of Washington Applied Physics Laboratory was involved in the design, implementation, and testing of the submersible, a representative of the university said that UW-APL only worked on "shallow water implementation" and did not work on the design or testing of the vessel.

The Marine Testing Society warned OceanGate that their cavalier attitude toward testing was extremely dangerous, and yet OceanGate seemingly ignored their warnings, with the CEO claiming that because the submersible was "experimental" it could not/should not be subjected to outside testing.

Personally, I find the "experimental" argument to be not just appalling, but illogical. If a drug company develops a brand new drug, it doesn't go straight from the lab to patients -- it has to go through multiple rounds of both internal and external tests before it is even approved for clinical trials. So the argument that an "experimental" submersible is suited to carry paying passengers 12,000 feet under the surface of the ocean without undergoing external safety testing just because it is a new design makes no sense. If anything, the fact that it is a new design makes rigorous internal and external testing even more critical.

MOO but I hope that in the future US legislators will mandate that companies based in the US which develop and operate these kinds of vessels for paid tours (IMO this was a paid tour, not a 'scientific' mission as OceanGate passed it off as) undergo extensive external testing throughout the design, engineering, and implementation phases.

It sounds like Rush was warned over and over again, but it just made him apply all his determination and cleverness to getting around all the regulations that already exist.

"I think it was General MacArthur who said you’re remembered for the rules you break." Well, he was right about that, tho not as intended (even if authorities pull off a miracle rescue). https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/business/stockton-rush-titanic-submersible/index.html

I think it's similar to how governments can create innumerable laws and systems to try to stop people from speeding, but some of them speed anyway. And other people get in the car with them.

At least with a high speed collision, it's over in the blink of an eye. This is like watching a 4 day, slo-mo collision.

I looked something up: it took 3 hrs for the Titanic to sink. The survivors were rescued and headed for New York about 6 hours later, and searching continued for only two more hours. It was all over a full day before the first newspaper headline.

JMO

 

[Warwick1991]

Please note the moisture and condensation around the port window!

This is the Mexican man whose trip was aborted due to battery power lose.

Upthread twice.

The humidity inside is one reason to have tested electronics for operations, not a game controller. Circuit boards and water don't mix well.

 

[fred&edna]

So far I have not read about any research equipment on Titan nor any kind of research being conducted on board.

Well, there is a world-renowned researcher on board... I believe that counts! He sounds like he IS the equipment

French oceanographer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, one of the five people on board a submersible missing in the North Atlantic, is a world renowned expert with more than 35 dives to the Titanic shipwreck under his belt, his colleagues said on Wednesday.

"He is the world specialist on the Titanic, its conception, the shipwreck, he has dived in four corners of the world - he is a super-hero for us in France," said Mathieu Johann, his editor at Harper Collins.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet: French diver on missing sub is Titanic expert

French oceanographer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, one of the five people on board a submersible missing in the North Atlantic, is a world renowned expert with more than 35 dives to the Titanic shipwreck under his belt, his colleagues said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[cuffem]

Well, there is a world-renowned researcher on board... I believe that counts! He sounds like he IS the equipment

French oceanographer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, one of the five people on board a submersible missing in the North Atlantic, is a world renowned expert with more than 35 dives to the Titanic shipwreck under his belt, his colleagues said on Wednesday.

"He is the world specialist on the Titanic, its conception, the shipwreck, he has dived in four corners of the world - he is a super-hero for us in France," said Mathieu Johann, his editor at Harper Collins.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet: French diver on missing sub is Titanic expert

French oceanographer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, one of the five people on board a submersible missing in the North Atlantic, is a world renowned expert with more than 35 dives to the Titanic shipwreck under his belt, his colleagues said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

But I have doubts that anything besides photos were being done onboard because in previous articles it talks about very little room to even sit properly in the sub let alone have research equipment.

 

[JennieM]

Let's take a closer look at some of the search equipment​

A Canadian P-3 aircraft detected underwater noises in the search area for the Titan.
The P-3 Orion spotter plane can perform reconnaissance over extended periods. It has infrared and long-range electro-optical cameras, as well as special imaging radar.



Another asset of the rescue efforts are ROVs - remotely operated vehicles.

As well as assisting in the search effort, ROVs could attach cables to the sub, should it be located, to help take the vessel to the surface.



Another piece of equipment is the Victor 6000 - an unmanned French robot which can dive up to 6,000 metres.

It has arms that can be remotely controlled to cut cables or otherwise help release a stuck vessel.

But it doesn't have the capability of lifting the submersible on its own.

This is the machine that could pull the sub to the surface​

It may look like a giant coil of rope, but what it can do is quite extraordinary.

This is the Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System (FADOSS), and it is used by the US Navy.

There's one FADOSS currently at St John's and is waiting for an available ROV (remotely operated vehicle) so it can be deployed to the search area.

A US Navy official said FADOSS works by welding the system to the deck of a ship and then binding the other end of the line to an ROV, which dives into the ocean depths.

It's strong enough to lift 60,000 pounds (27,000kg) and it can go as far down as 20,000ft (6096m) into the sea.

The deepest recovery effort recorded with a FADOSS is 19,750ft. The Titanic wreck is at a depth of 12,467ft.

Usually, FADOSS is used to recover large, bulk and heavy sunken objects like aircraft and small boats.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[Puzzles8]

I think the answer to your question will change tomorrow. Right now they have to give it everything, but tomorrow, after the air runs out (supposing that the vessel is still intact, which I will very much hope it is not and has not been this whole time once we get to that point) things change. Once the air deadline has passed, they will have to decide if they continue searching for remains that may not exist anymore, or pack up the resources and leave the passengers to rest in the ocean.
It's a hard decision, and I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make it, but if I did I wouldn't keep it going for more than a day or two

I get the impression, OceanGate was so caviler, they didn't even entertain the idea their sub would catastrophically fail, much less plan for it.

They didn't/wouldn't even get Titan tested or reviewed by ANY outside safety agency. The question is why not? Did they fear their sub would not pass safety regulations, was it a matter of money or time?

JMO

 

[JDG]

THANK you. Yeah, just reread those 7 methods of resurfacing and this appears to be the best guess at the "dead man switch" example. The others all require action (one of the listed 7 methods is impossible since it was impossible to stand inside the Titan - so those 7 examples are just that: examples of how it *can* be done).

I await confirmation that this ever happened on a Titan. The people detailing their passenger experience (I think there are three now) say the ballast was old pipe but they don't say how it was disconnected and left behind. Some of of mechanism must surely have been involved - but whether that mechanism depended on electricity, well, we'll have to wait until experts begin to weigh in on how they think this tragedy went down.

I've now lost my optimism. And I'm angry at CEO Rush.

JMO.

One of the reports said that they ‘offloaded ballast’ and sat on the seabed until the ropes holding the ballast rotted off.

It took a few hours.

 

[fred&edna]

But I have doubts that anything besides photos were being done onboard because in previous articles it talks about very little room to even sit properly in the sub let alone have research equipment.

What difference does it make??

If people want pay huge amounts of money to take this sardine can adventure with the risk of death mentioned three times on the first page of a release... along with a world-renowned researcher on board (who also took the risk)... they have the right to do so... whether it's for research or possible deadly adventure or no??

This was obviously not an amusement park ride nor an airplane jaunt with an announcement to have your seat in the upright position verbal warning.

I suppose common sense really isn't common. There "oughta' be a law" for everything?


ETA: I'm still not consuming raw milk... and I sure as hell would not have signed anything nor stepped foot into this baby-size undersea vessel. But, I have the choice!

 

[CrimeDawg123]

What difference does it make??

If people want pay huge amounts of money to take this sardine can adventure with the risk of death mentioned three times on the first page of a release... along with a world-renowned researcher on board (who also took the risk)... they have the right to do so... whether it's for research or possible deadly adventure or no??

This was obviously not an amusement park ride nor an airplane jaunt with an announcement to have your seat in the upright position verbal warning.

I suppose common sense really isn't common. There "oughta' be a law" for everything?

They have a right to do it, sure. What they don't have a right to do IMO is fail to take precautions or plan for failures, and then rely on others to come to their rescue. Especially when those rescuers are putting themselves at risk.

 

[JennieM]

2m ago
Capt Jamie Frederick of the United States Coast is giving a press conference now to provide an update about the missing submersible in the North Atlantic.

He says it is an “extremely difficult time” for the friends and families of those five passengers on board and a liaison has been set up to ensure they are kept up to date.

There are currently five vessels search for the Titan and five more will join the search in the next two days. Two remotely operate vehicles are also involved in the search.

More noises heard in search area, says US Coast Guard, amid huge effort to bring crew home – as it happened

Rescue team says every noise being tracked and analysed; ‘every possible effort’ being made to bring missing crew home, says Polar Prince co-owner

www.theguardian.com

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I get the impression, OceanGate was so caviler, they didn't even entertain the idea their sub would catastrophically fail, much less plan for it.

They didn't/wouldn't even get Titan tested or reviewed by ANY outside safety agency. The question is why not? Did they fear their sub would not pass safety regulations, was it a matter of money or time?

Passengers signed or not. I don't see them not getting sued.

 

[JennieM]

now
Frederocl says a Canadian airplane detected “underwater noises in the search area” on Tuesday and authorities have coordinated to better target the area. However, they have yet to find the source.

Efforts are being made to analyze the data but so far there are no firm conclusions that can be drawn and experts working on the issue “don’t know what they are, to be frank with you.”

More noises heard in search area, says US Coast Guard, amid huge effort to bring crew home – as it happened

Rescue team says every noise being tracked and analysed; ‘every possible effort’ being made to bring missing crew home, says Polar Prince co-owner

www.theguardian.com

 

[JDG]

I get the impression, OceanGate was so caviler, they didn't even entertain the idea their sub would catastrophically fail, much less plan for it.

They didn't/wouldn't even get Titan tested or reviewed by ANY outside safety agency. The question is why not? Did they fear their sub would not pass safety regulations, was it a matter of money or time?

JMO

IMO, he knew it was substandard and getting tested/approval costs money.

Dont think they had the resources to start the process, blamed it on the timeframe needed for approval (years) plus the cost.

IMO, they wanted to get it up and operational, bringing in money.

The price of the trips has doubled, a real money maker. Oh uh

MOO, JMO, IMO

 

[cuffem]

What difference does it make??

If people want pay huge amounts of money to take this sardine can adventure with the risk of death mentioned three times on the first page of a release... along with a world-renowned researcher on board (who also took the risk)... they have the right to do so... whether it's for research or possible deadly adventure or no??

This was obviously not an amusement park ride nor an airplane jaunt with an announcement to have your seat in the upright position verbal warning.

I suppose common sense really isn't common. There "oughta' be a law" for everything?

Because the company used the research excuse as a way to justify putting people in danger for a thrill ride, for them to make big profits. IMO.