Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[acutename]

Thank you - I should have thanked you for your earlier response, which I saw. Aside from your explanation, I only found one article online (SciAmerican) that explained this type of system to me. Every MSM article otherwise just says "texting" which of course makes most people think of...texting by cell.

Your Ham Radio background is so interesting! Thank you for being here on WS. Turns out that the signal could only be detected by the Polar Prince (mother ship) when the Titan was directly beneath it.

Seems like a huge limitation to me - and of course, I wonder if the passengers were aware of that detail. It was essentially like being in an elevator shaft - adventure was intended to go straight down, then straight back up. Yet, on prior trips, they "lost" a previous Titan craft for 5 hours (can't remember how they found it again or how that resolved - I think it was 2021).

I can't imagine going into an elevator shaft with a phone that could only be monitored by someone at the top of the shaft. But I'm not all that adventurous, so there's that. I actually like elevator drop/plunge rides (Tower of Terror type), but adding water into the story makes it all different for me. My respect for oceans, lakes and rivers knows no bounds. More people die in the California Sierra by drowning in rivers than any other wilderness cause. I've watched people in Los Angeles decide to get into run-off canals when it rains, on the theory that "it isn't that deep" (it isn't deep - but it is fast and that makes all the difference).

This is a case of very deep water. I know that my students would hear 4000 meters (estimated depth of this dive) and think "NBD" because 1) the number 4000 is not 4 billion and 2) they don't know meters from feet.

Just saying. JMO.

they keep saying that the vessel does not navigate- that it really does not do much, so I think you are right with the elevator model, however they have also said that the weather precluded other trips and that the weather was bad this year especially- does that mean there is so much current and wave action that the simple "drop" the vessel- have it come back up from its origin does not work?

 

[10ofRods]

It truly is astounding that Titan was not tested or inspected by anyone outside of the company given the extreme and unprecedented conditions it (and its passengers, aka "mission specialists") would be subjected to.

Although OceanGate claimed in a court filing that the University of Washington Applied Physics Laboratory was involved in the design, implementation, and testing of the submersible, a representative of the university said that UW-APL only worked on "shallow water implementation" and did not work on the design or testing of the vessel.

The Marine Testing Society warned OceanGate that their cavalier attitude toward testing was extremely dangerous, and yet OceanGate seemingly ignored their warnings, with the CEO claiming that because the submersible was "experimental" it could not/should not be subjected to outside testing.

Personally, I find the "experimental" argument to be not just appalling, but illogical. If a drug company develops a brand new drug, it doesn't go straight from the lab to patients -- it has to go through multiple rounds of both internal and external tests before it is even approved for clinical trials. So the argument that an "experimental" submersible is suited to carry paying passengers 12,000 feet under the surface of the ocean without undergoing external safety testing just because it is a new design makes no sense. If anything, the fact that it is a new design makes rigorous internal and external testing even more critical.

MOO but I hope that in the future US legislators will mandate that companies based in the US which develop and operate these kinds of vessels for paid tours (IMO this was a paid tour, not a 'scientific' mission as OceanGate passed it off as) undergo extensive external testing throughout the design, engineering, and implementation phases.

I sure would like to see whether those facts are in the waiver. "You are going on an entirely untested and unregulated vessel."

"You will be bolted into a tube with no means of escape and no built-in emergency beacon or back-up power supply."

I'd also like to know if anyone explained depth and water pressure (they should have been required to watch videos about it and then sign off on the fact that rescue would be impossible if anything went wrong).

I totally agree with you - although, if the people had seriously been educated and warned about risks (as opposed to being made to pretend to be "researchers"), I'd have different feelings right now.

I do think there would have been some people who still paid passage to get on this thing, though.

When a concession takes money from people, regardless of waivers signed, they are still responsible for the reasonable operation of the concession.

IMO. This was not a research dive.

 

[Cool Cats]

How deep is the Titanic?
2.2 miles down
RMS TITANIC - DEPTH TO SCALE
Surface is NYC 59th St.
Ocean floor is NYC 14th Street

How Deep Is The Titanic In Miles

Web The Titanic is now on the ocean floor about 350 nautical miles off the coast of Newfoundland Canada. From there she travelled 1620. 20...

858shirleyturnerkabar.blogspot.com

 

[kaen]

This reminds me (in scope of decision-making and vessel seaworthiness) of the whole Tall Ship HMS Bounty sailing during Hurricane Sandy--- a captain with experience, a vessel that was questionable and people who wanted adventure. They had to be rescued during the Hurricane by brave souls. They lost the captain and a deck hand. (https://www.cnn.com/2014/06/12/us/hms-bounty-tall-ship-sinking-investigation/index.html) The issue of real risk versus perceived risk is one that I don't think many people understand fully. There are reasons for engineering studies and standards. Those who offer adventure with little to back things up AND who do not provide safety mechanisms in their vessels should not be allowed to run their trips, IMHO. Others pay for their foolishness-- not just with their lives, but the extremely costly rescues and the lives of the rescuers at stake. Ughh. I hope these people can be saved. But I am not optimistic.

 

[Puzzles8]

No worries!
That is the thing with thrill seekers, they can risk themselves but then it leads to others being at risk to rescue them.

You make a very good point.

Thousands of people are now included in their rescue mission. I can't even imagine the $ millions+ that have been spent already.

The US and Canadian Military as well as private companies have deployed many assets on an emergency basis. IMO, every available asset that might assist has been deployed. That doesn't come cheap.

JMO

 

[Hoss569]

I sure would like to see whether those facts are in the waiver. "You are going on an entirely untested and unregulated vessel."

"You will be bolted into a tube with no means of escape and no built-in emergency beacon or back-up power supply."

I'd also like to know if anyone explained depth and water pressure (they should have been required to watch videos about it and then sign off on the fact that rescue would be impossible if anything went wrong).

I totally agree with you - although, if the people had seriously been educated and warned about risks (as opposed to being made to pretend to be "researchers"), I'd have different feelings right now.

I do think there would have been some people who still paid passage to get on this thing, though.

When a concession takes money from people, regardless of waivers signed, they are still responsible for the reasonable operation of the concession.

IMO. This was not a research dive.

Wouldn't you think there would be some extensive training? Like lock yourself in a small chamber for eight hours without any light,sound etc. Then do it with several different people? work on your diet for a couple of weeks? What about the bends? I just can't fathom getting into a sub on a whim to do something only a handful of people have done, with many adventurer's saying no way. For some reason I think Space is a little safer, at least you may be able to see down.

 

[JDG]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiI4cOi3dX_AhWGl4kEHZQ1BFYQvOMEKAB6BAgJEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2023%2F06%2F21%2Fbusiness%2Fstockton-rush-titanic-submersible%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw1XhVrRDpgfuqxyIF37Pakr&opi=89978449

What we know about Stockton Rush. CNN

He wanted to be Captain Kirk on the Enterprise.

Childhood dreams…..never grew out of them.

 

[10ofRods]

they keep saying that the vessel does not navigate- that it really does not do much, so I think you are right with the elevator model, however they have also said that the weather precluded other trips and that the weather was bad this year especially- does that mean there is so much current and wave action that the simple "drop" the vessel- have it come back up from its origin does not work?

I'm not sure that the currents vary (deep down) that much according to surface weather. At any rate, what I know is that all oceans and lakes are incredibly unpredictable. A large lake like Tahoe or Yellowstone create their own weather (lots of lightening just for starters).

The surface weather has to be good to take the mother ship out and to set the submersible into the water.

I'm pretty sure that no vessel of this type could re-emerge at exactly the same point it went in (hence the need for the ping). So now, without the pings, they've had to try and estimate currents at the very bottom, the middle - and the top (because it could be anywhere).

However, the overall idea is exactly that the tube goes down, passes by the Titanic and comes back up in roughly the same area where it departed.

What I can't wrap my mind around is the part where the ballast is released (there are several different forms of ballast according to one reporter who admits he is only listing known methods of managing submersibles - isn't an expert on this particular one). The "time release one" is now being described as bags of salt inserted into the undercarriage.

The same reporter says it's possible to put a big inflatable balloon on a submersible (how? made of what? to withstand depths of 13,000?) I can see that working for the kinds of submersibles used to lay cable in harbors or to inspect ship hulls. Not with such ocean depth. And as far as I can tell, there is no legitimate, juried research on this topic, as no one has the money to fund it. Nor would it be practical to start devising more deep ocean submersibles for passengers.

So far I have not read about any research equipment on Titan nor any kind of research being conducted on board.

Yet, it was registered as a research vessel in order to evade certain requirements. And the passengers were listed as "crew" (after 5 days of training).

The registration as a research vehicle is in the official ocean register, the column to your right when you open this:

Ship OCEAN TITAN (Research/Survey Vessel) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 8835231, MMSI 369228000, Call Sign WDJ3639

Vessel OCEAN TITAN is a Research/Survey Vessel, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of OCEAN TITAN including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 8835231...

www.marinetraffic.com

If you just google "research vessel Titan" you will see that it's registered in that manner and written about in that manner, over the past 5 years. I suspect this made most of what was spent on its inception "research donations" (including the fare paid by the hapless customers).

Joint search continues for missing submersible, Titan

BOSTON – The unified command continues search efforts of the 21-foot submersible research vessel, Titan, from the Research Vessel Polar Prince that went missing Sunday evening. Click the link above to

www.news.uscg.mil

Here's what the Coast Guard site says:

//The unified command continues search efforts of the 21-foot submersible research vessel, Titan, from the Research Vessel Polar Prince that went missing Sunday evening.//

IOW, much of the press is coming from sites like the Coast Guard (and its daily updates). It's a Research Vessel and so is the Polar Prince. And Oceangate states that its mission is...research.

About – OceanGate Foundation

www.oceangatefoundation.org

It is organized as a 501(c)(3).

It can receive donations that are tax deductible (probably including the money spent on "research" by its short term "crew members."

IMO.

 

[bestill]

he's 19 - not a minor

I stand corrected.

 

[10ofRods]

IMO, he knew it was substandard and getting tested/approval costs money.

Dont think they had the resources to start the process, blamed it on the timeframe needed for approval (years) plus the cost.

IMO, they wanted to get it up and operational, bringing in money.

The price of the trips has doubled, a real money maker. Oh uh

MOO, JMO, IMO

The hatch design, alone, is not up to standards for craft going to that depth.

It's the only uninspected vessel that goes to that depth. It's the only uninspected, unregistered, human-occupied craft going to that depth.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183408455/titan-missing-submarine-oceangate-submersible

 

[Gardenista]

Just heard an interesting comment on a video. Just because the sub can't communicate with the mothership, doesn't mean the people in the sub aren't able to hear from the mothership.

 

[bestill]

Why are there no means of getting out of the sub from the inside, like a saw, torch or something? There are windows so clearly they would know that they were not submersed in water and could try to extract themselves.

 

[annpats]

What about the bends?

That is something divers get from breathing compressed air and ascending too quickly - leading to a build up of nitrogen in their system.
They have to ascend slowly, most technical divers (50m+) have to stop off at various levels, and sometimes at 70m+ have to breathe other gasses to help offset the nitrogen.

I don't think 'the bends' would affect them as they have been in a pressurised environment.

And if course, opening the submersible down there would be unthinkable. The pressure would crush them and the craft itself to smithereens in an instant.

 

[mickey2942]

Wouldn't you think there would be some extensive training? Like lock yourself in a small chamber for eight hours without any light,sound etc. Then do it with several different people? work on your diet for a couple of weeks? What about the bends? I just can't fathom getting into a sub on a whim to do something only a handful of people have done, with many adventurer's saying no way. For some reason I think Space is a little safer, at least you may be able to see down.

The ethics of private pay space tourism is another venture, that is not adequately regulated.

Not unlike the mad rush for everyone who could afford to climb Everest is good to go. We have seen how well that worked out.

That being said, if people want to go down in a submersible vessel, and see the bottom of the ocean, let them. I have always been a Libertarian, let consenting adults do what they want. As long as society doesn't get stuck with an expensive rescue or recovery mission. It seems ridiculous to me, the amount of public resources being expended on this recovery mission.

 

[annpats]

Why are there no means of getting out of the sub from the inside, like a saw or something? There are windows so clearly they would know that they were not submersed in water and could try to extract themselves.

I think that would be like sawing through another pressurised craft...like an aeroplane.....not a good idea unless you can release the pressure first. (Even floating on the surface, the submersible will still be pressurised.)
And if the submersible has lost power, depressurising it is not going to happen, as it's likely to be electronically controlled.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Just heard an interesting comment on a video. Just because the sub can't communicate with the mothership, doesn't mean the people in the sub aren't able to hear from the mothership.

I imagine some of their family is on the mothership. Hopefully they can say something to them if they can hear it.

But if they’re able to hear, maybe they could respond to requests by knocking.

 

[Gardenista]

The ethics of private pay space tourism is another venture, that is not adequately regulated.

Not unlike the mad rush for everyone who could afford to climb Everest is good to go. We have seen how well that worked out.

That being said, if people want to go down in a submersible vessel, and see the bottom of the ocean, let them. I have always been a Libertarian, let consenting adults do what they want. As long as society doesn't get stuck with an expensive rescue or recovery mission. It seems ridiculous to me, the amount of public resources being expended on this recovery mission.

The thing is, this operation is excellent training for those involved. Not to mention the rich people are the ones who paid for the vast majority of the expensive rescue equipment via taxes.

 

[annpats]

It seems ridiculous to me, the amount of public resources being expended on this recovery mission.

You could argue that about teams of search & rescue personnel who search for lost hikers and mountaineers for days (or weeks) on end!

There is no judgment, and no questions asked from them....they just go out there and try to rescue people as that's what they've been trained to do.

There is also the moral route of being obliged to help, if you are able to.

Society should always try to help those in need, that is the tenet of most philosophies and religions. And it's not a bad idea.

 

[Cedars]

I just can't fathom getting into a sub on a whim to do something only a handful of people have done, with many adventurer's saying no way. For some reason I think Space is a little safer, at least you may be able to see down.

I was thinking, as private space travel becomes more popular, we're probably going to see similar crises with people stranded in space capsules with no means of rescue.

I'm not sure what motivated the passengers, but IMO they all knew that they were doing something extremely adventurous, not just getting on a glass bottom boat from the local marina. That equals, is identical to, taking a big risk. If it weren't risky, then thousands of people would be doing it, and it wouldn't be worth doing any more.


Just like early airplane flight was so risky - Lucky Lindbergh became a huge hero for making it, but there were plenty like Amelia Earhart that didn't make it, and no one was surprised. Now, of course, flying is positively boring, mainly, IMO, because it's so safe, everyone does it.

JMO

 

[Snoopster]

The ethics of private pay space tourism is another venture, that is not adequately regulated.

Not unlike the mad rush for everyone who could afford to climb Everest is good to go. We have seen how well that worked out.

That being said, if people want to go down in a submersible vessel, and see the bottom of the ocean, let them. I have always been a Libertarian, let consenting adults do what they want. As long as society doesn't get stuck with an expensive rescue or recovery mission. It seems ridiculous to me, the amount of public resources being expended on this recovery mission.

I agree with what you've said. And I'm not a Libertarian for that exact reason. You might think you can be free to do what you want, but it affects the rest of society in the end. The average Joe/Jane pays for the search and recovery efforts. To your point, society shouldn't pay the bill, but in the end the rest of society actually cares about others, so they can't let it go. So the individualist shuns restrictions by society, yet they benefit from it greatly.

ETA: I think it's selfish

ETA2: corrected typo