GUILTY Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 *Arrest* #17

[Bats]

For the thread -

What are people’s thoughts on if she gets found not guilty should she be charged with perverting the course of justice?

Surely there has to be some ramifications to killing 3 people and nearly a fourth. She has admitted she lied and hid evidence, so that’s not in dispute either.

So where do people stand on this?

In my opinion, I don't think being found not guilty of murder is something of a gateway to enable other charges such as perverting the course of justice.

I think it would be part of this trial since trials can have multiple charges in play.

So no, I personally don't think if she is found not guilty that the police will place her under arrest her again.

JMO

 

[Porky1]

I agree on both these points.

Same with evidence from Mr Fox who was not fully qualified and also couldn't answer when testifying if the time stamps were in UTC or local time.

I think other evidence is strong enough to overcome some of these shortcomings though.

Yes, Mr Fox wasn’t qualified at the time. Iam still stunned by this.

It’s unfortunate as these two expert witnesses weren’t confident or convincing. I’ve disregarded both in this case.

 

[Scuffy35]

For the thread -

What are people’s thoughts on if she gets found not guilty should she be charged with perverting the course of justice?

Surely there has to be some ramifications to killing 3 people and nearly a fourth. She has admitted she lied and hid evidence, so that’s not in dispute either.

So where do people stand on this?

If it couldn't be proved to be intentional, then she was definitely reckless, uncooperative with police and told lie upon lie. For the sake of justice, there should be consequences, from our laws. I am not familiar enough with the system to say what options there are.

 

[Porky1]

I’ve just googled a vet site

Can dogs eat mushrooms?​

Similar to humans, some mushrooms are fine for dogs to eat, while others can be toxic. Dogs can eat mushrooms bought from a supermarket or other shop, preferably organic

Yes, thanks.

The advice has changed and thankfully google is available to us now. Mushrooms, tomatoes, garlic, onion, etc was considered dangerous. I simply stuck to what I know.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Well before we could google everything, my understanding was that mushrooms were bad for dogs. Until recently, I didn’t bother to check if that was revised. I can’t imagine my dogs would enjoy them and I’ll continue to thrown them out.

Yes better safe than sorry.

 

[ellyvantelli]

Weird that she didn't leave the degradable tissues behind. And gross that she didn't wash her hands in the 9 seconds in the servo toilet.

MOO

This was one of EP’s more successful pieces of misdirection [IMHO]*
There was a bush stop, but there never was any bush toileting [IMO].

This was a carefully preplanned stop in the middle of nowhere, far from home, at a place of suitable bush cover, to dispose of some ‘inconvenient items’ which she had secreted in her capacious handbag, out of sight of any observation & in a place unlikely ever to be investigated.

Her calling it a poo stop gave both
- an explanation/alibi for stopping in the middle of nowhere &
- added support to her evidence of illness, should that ever be needed, [at this point she wouldn’t have known definitively how big/detailed any investigation might be] in a way that would deter much interest in burrowing down into the detail on cross.

It also set up a reason for the disposal of a dog poo bag, and whatever was hidden in it, down the toilet at the servo stop.

[Although, if actually true, no matter how incredible, we should remember that EP was an experienced camper so could just possibly be adept at the technique necessary.]

*Just look how many thread pages have been devoted to commenting on this noxious distraction, with only few pointing to above. EP presumably hoped the jury would also get distracted into this, amongst other, irrelevancies.

 

[Porky1]

It's obvious what she intended IMO. It's baffling how people can't see/deny this.

Hoping we hear a verdict tomorrow.

Respectfully, we all see things differently.

If our opinion differs, it doesn’t mean that we can’t see or are in denial, it’s perhaps that not all of us are running high on emotion and we are still prepared to raise possibilities for discussion.

 

[Ellery84]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed (discussing armchair diagnoses)>

If she gets convicted, my view is that she will undergo a psych exam in jail.

The professionals are best to diagnose such disorders. IMO

 

[Two SCents]

This was a carefully preplanned stop in the middle of nowhere, far from home, at a place of suitable bush cover, to dispose of some ‘inconvenient items’ which she had secreted in her capacious handbag, out of sight of any observation & in a place unlikely ever to be investigated.

Right, so on Sunday she carefully preplanned a stop in the middle of nowhere out of sight to dispose of inconvenient items.

Then on Wednesday she took a dehydrator with her fingerprints on it to a tip with CCTV and paid the fee electronically.

Doesn't sound plausible imo

 

[Detechtive]

interesting Lucy Letby language...... "they came home with me" relating to the handover sheets.

It's almost like the mushrooms and paperwork are sentient!

 

[Detechtive]

Right, so on Sunday she carefully preplanned a stop in the middle of nowhere out of sight to dispose of inconvenient items.

Then on Wednesday she took a dehydrator with her fingerprints on it to a tip with CCTV and paid the fee electronically.

Doesn't sound plausible imo

It does sound plausible to me. On Sunday she wasn't under any suspicion. She probably thought she got away with it, IMO. Probably got rid of the most obvious evidence.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday she was panicked, IMO, and thinking "what else can tie me to this", hence disposal of the dehydrator, etc.

On August 2,3,5 she deleted her phone records and disposed of phone A between August 5 and November 2. Delayed 'cleaning up'. IMO

 

[ellyvantelli]

Right, so on Sunday she carefully preplanned a stop in the middle of nowhere out of sight to dispose of inconvenient items.

Then on Wednesday she took a dehydrator with her fingerprints on it to a tip with CCTV and paid the fee electronically.

Doesn't sound plausible imo

Respectfully, IMOO, EP had more things to dispose of post lunch than just a dehydrator.

Whilst I realise that her handbag was a good size, I doubt a dehydrator would fit in it.

This was a road trip with at least one child in the vehicle with her. Her first legitimate opportunity to drive a distance away from home after the lunch.

However using it to hump a dehydrator out of the trunk and into the bushes would not have been compatible with the 'narrative' for the stop being needing urgently to relieve herself.

In my own view, the reason that she disposed of the dehydrator at the tip in a legitimate fashion, under the cover of 'panic behaviour', was because she had failed to work out a better solution for getting rid of it in an 'unsupicious manner' prior to the lunch. It not being a small, inconspicuous item to either bury or flytip and disposing of it before the lunch and it then being discovered would be far more damaging to her defence.
JMOO

Edited to add:
For all we know, the dehydrator may have been tucked out of sight in the trunk and, had the flying lesson gone ahead, she had a plan to leave the airfield, on the excuse of a shopping errand, and dispose of it more discretely at a Melbourne tip. But the weather put paid to that option.JMOO

 

[Porky1]

If she gets convicted, my view is that she will undergo a psych exam in jail.

The professionals are best to diagnose such disorders. IMO

Yes, I agree. It’s best to leave the diagnoses to professionals.

Armchair diagnoses is not helpful, it shows a lack of respect and ignorance. I can’t imagine there would be many ethical professionals who would use a forum such as this to espouse their views without a solid testing process and diagnoses.

 

[Tortoise]

If it was premeditated, you’d limit your tools and throw them away immediately. Bleach the bench top, sink, etc. Store the DC container in a garage or shed, in a secondary container or locked box. Iam still puzzled why the dehydrator wasn’t disposed earlier. To me, you would dispose everything months prior. The dehydrator is a sticking point for me.

RSBM

She wasn't planning on telling anyone she used dried mushrooms. The recipe didn't call for them and she told the first doctor she saw on Monday 31st that the mushrooms were purchased at Woolworths.

It was only later, when the hospital was already running tests on the lunch guests that she first mentioned using dried mushrooms, when asked by Simon's brother, and then she said they were purchased. She later explained on Tuesday 1st Aug she re-hydrated them. Nothing was said about dehydrating anything.

 

[Two SCents]

Respectfully, IMOO, EP had more things to dispose of post lunch than just a dehydrator.

Whilst I realise that her handbag was a good size, I doubt a dehydrator would fit in it.

This was a road trip with at least one child in the vehicle with her. Her first legitimate opportunity to drive a distance away from home after the lunch.

However using it to hump a dehydrator out of the trunk and into the bushes would not have been compatible with the 'narrative' for the stop being needing urgently to relieve herself.

In my own view, the reason that she disposed of the dehydrator at the tip in a legitimate fashion, under the cover of 'panic behaviour', was because she had failed to work out a better solution for getting rid of it in an 'unsupicious manner' prior to the lunch. It not being a small, inconspicuous item to either bury or flytip and disposing of it before the lunch and it then being discovered would be far more damaging to her defence.
JMOO

Edited to add:
For all we know, the dehydrator may have been tucked out of sight in the trunk and, had the flying lesson gone ahead, she had a plan to leave the airfield, on the excuse of a shopping errand, and dispose of it more discretely at a Melbourne tip. But the weather put paid to that option.JMOO

No worries you're entitled to your view, I'm not arguing. For me personally, your speculation doesn't fit with how EP behaved and responded during the sequence of what was unfolding. IMO

 

[Susjay]

Yes, Mr Fox wasn’t qualified at the time. Iam still stunned by this.

It’s unfortunate as these two expert witnesses weren’t confident or convincing. I’ve disregarded both in this case.

It’s interesting you have chosen to dismiss the expert tech evidence. Fox-Henry was directed by colleagues in searching the computer. Justice Beale did not say the evidence from experts was not convincing. Nor did he say that the experts were not confident in their evidence. He did say the potential flaws in such data were explained, and said it was up to the jury to decide about the usefulness of this evidence in their deliberations. And obviously, the jury will decide what to do with the tech evidence.

Justice Beale said Fox-Henry extracted data from the computer, using the words death cap, mushrooms and poison. Fox-Henry agreed he did not have training on one particular piece of software he used (Magnet Axiom), instead turning to instructions from his colleagues. Fox-Henry also gave evidence about finding the device had accessed the iNaturalist website in May 2022, around the same time it also accessed a website for the Korumburra Middle Hotel to order takeaway food.
The evidence from Sorrel showing phone locations was also mentioned by Beale. It did give indications of where the phone was likely to be at certain times but was not infallible. The phone location was congruent with reporting of death cap location by funkyTom the previous day, the visit to said area and purchase of the dehydrator.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

For the thread -

What are people’s thoughts on if she gets found not guilty should she be charged with perverting the course of justice?

Surely there has to be some ramifications to killing 3 people and nearly a fourth. She has admitted she lied and hid evidence, so that’s not in dispute either.

So where do people stand on this?

Yes she should be charged w perverting, as she will no doubt be appealing and a conviction for perverting will define her actions.

 

[ch_13]

Right, so on Sunday she carefully preplanned a stop in the middle of nowhere out of sight to dispose of inconvenient items.

Then on Wednesday she took a dehydrator with her fingerprints on it to a tip with CCTV and paid the fee electronically.

Doesn't sound plausible imo

From the trial reports:

She told the court this week that after returning home she also laid down "for a while".
Dr Rogers: How long did you lie down for?
Ms Patterson: I don't know.
Dr Rogers: That's untrue, isn't it? … It's untrue that you lay down?
Ms Patterson: No.
Dr Rogers: Surely that's the last thing you would do in these circumstances?
Ms Patterson: It might be the last thing you'd do, but it was something I did.
Dr Rogers: After you'd been told by medical staff that you had potentially ingested a life-threatening poison, isn't it the last thing that you would do, is to lie down in those circumstances?
Ms Patterson: They didn't tell me it was life-threatening.

The moments from Erin Patterson's evidence that didn't make headlines

Amid repeated prosecution accusations of murder, deceit and cover-up, there were exchanges about the right time for a "lie down" and errors in the days of the week, as Erin Patterson finished her evidence.

www.abc.net.au

So her claim is that after leaving the hospital she went home and lay down, but didn't know that her life was potentially in danger.

Personally, I find her testimony a little hard to swallow. If she didn't think her life was threatened and thought the doctors and nurses were blowing smoke, why lie down? I think the lie-down claim is because she knew there was an unexplained time-gap in her account. It wouldn't take very long to pack a bag for her daughter, so what would she have been doing the rest of the time?

As for whether she was disposing of items...Upthread I suggested that she had a large number of things she had to get rid of. The plates, cookware, serving and eating utensils, mixing bowls, etc. Anything that could have had a trace of death caps. It would have been too much stuff to get rid of in one go, so she could have been throwing them out piecemeal at a variety of locations. Like when she dropped her son at the Subway or the nine-second toilet stop at the gas station. So, I do believe she may have had a preplanned stop. Somewhere far from home where she could toss a bag of garbage and not attract attention.

Edit - I do think the dehydrator was a last-minute change of plan. I don't think she was originally going to dispose of it, but something changed her mind. Maybe she realized that if it was forensically examined, the investigators might find trace amounts of fungi residue. (As they did.)

 

[CityKid]

I was curious about that too. I guess the forensic testing wasn’t viable given it was likely 3 months between collecting, autumn to winter.

If it was premeditated, you’d limit your tools and throw them away immediately. Bleach the bench top, sink, etc. Store the DC container in a garage or shed, in a secondary container or locked box. Iam still puzzled why the dehydrator wasn’t disposed earlier. To me, you would dispose everything months prior. The dehydrator is a sticking point for me.

MOO I think EP was quite proud of her devious plan. Her son didn't even know she had a dehydrator, per his testimony. Who knows how long she might have kept it around as a trophy, as many alleged killers do? She disposed of it on 2 August 2023. By that point, doctors suspected her guests had suffered from mushroom poisoning, and she knew that the meal she served was being examined as the possible cause. MOO by then, she knew she could no longer keep her dehydrator "trophy." I have no problem understanding why she disposed of the dehydrator exactly when she did.

Erin Patterson took son on hours-long drive despite feeling sick, murder trial hears — as it happened

Erin Patterson trial day 27 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Lunch guests' illnesses were 'not survivable', doctor tells mushroom trial

A doctor has detailed the final moments of three lunch guests who died from death cap mushroom poisoning after attending a lunch at Erin Patterson's house.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Megnut]

I have no trouble understanding why she kept it (until she didn't).

To use it again, same purpose.

JMO