Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[ArianeEmory]

The problem, IMO, isn’t the inherent danger of going on an underwater excursion. It’s the fact that OceanGate didn’t have the proper equipment to safely complete such an excursion

I posted a little ways back that I hadn’t realized how many manned dives (in submersibles, I mean) had been completed to the Titanic site, including a whopping 33 by James Cameron. After this rabbit hole today, I came to pretty much the same conclusion you do above. AFAIK, there haven’t been any other fatalities, and it’s been done since the (!) 80s (!). So, “best practices” must exist. I’m all for innovation, but in a situation like this, regulation also seems good.

Huge JMO

 

[kccorona]

Ah, okay, thanks! I wasn’t aware that the distress signal had been verified. I thought the support ship simply lost contact, which is why they delayed reporting to the Coast Guard for so long. Apparently they had lost contact in the past.

I don’t know that the distress signal has been verified from official (coast guard etc) outside of comments from experts during interviews. They sent their last signal to the mothership at 1hr 45mins into their journey, and did not send another at the 2 hour mark, as was the protocol (every 15 mins). I could’ve missed a distress signal verification but I believe that would’ve been reported earlier on by the authorities if it was verified.

 

[10ofRods]

Were Mr Reiss and his wife simple fools conned by (huckster) Rushton, too?? I don't think they feel that way.

'Simpsons' Writer Mike Reiss Reveals Titanic Sub Experience, Tech Issues on Ocean Floor

Many people who have had happy experiences feel happy. Heck, that woman whose husband drove their Tesla into the Pacific (and who told the police at the time that he did it on purpose, because he was in a rage and said he was going to kill the whole family) says she loves him and is happy with him and doesn't want to press charges.

Indeed, it's always the case that many people say "what a nice guy" the con person actually is (there are cops that do really heinous things, and I've interviewed their managers, their colleagues, their victims - and other people who could have been victims. I've interviewed the bad cops, too (prior to them being sentenced).

Most people describe them as cheerful, kind, helpful and, yes, charismatic. Indeed, the people (management) who hired me did not tell me who the suspects were. So I interviewed them blind and yep, the guy who was the most friendly, charismatic and charming was eventually convicted. What I learned from him in those interviews was very helpful to the internal investigators (who knew, apparently, that he'd talk more to a woman - and I got his whole life history, along with some very interesting statements that the investigators said "tipped the balance" and got him a transfer and a desk job while they did more investigation).

He's in prison at the moment. This was 20 years ago; he was sentenced 18 years ago.

If we had gone by my experience of him (I just thought he was nice and friendly, although a bit talkative), well, you get my point.

This is how con artists operate (since we are on WS, I feel it's important to consider such issues of safety, law, and health).

IMO.

Ah, okay, thanks! I wasn’t aware that the distress signal had been verified. I thought the support ship simply lost contact, which is why they delayed reporting to the Coast Guard for so long. Apparently they had lost contact in the past.

It wasn't classified as a distress signal IMO. The only MSM that has mentioned a distress signal (that I know of) is DM (and then only in a graphical timeline). Pings were expected every 15 minutes (and were automated). The last ping was no different than the ones that occurred every fifteen minutes. 15 minutes later (at hour 2:00) there was apparently no ping (although DM says there was - but doesn't have a source, I think their reporter is confused).

This no ping had happened before when a previous Titan voyage had a power outage (I think it was last year).

That ping at 1:45 was an ordinary ping, in a series of pings, not a "distress signal" IMO. That's how they navigated (via ping and then return coordinates message).

IMO.

 

[NCWatcher]

I sure can't find anything very definitive about the distress signal.

For example from Missing Titanic sub sent distress signal before silence in mystery disappearance

Bold added

"But oceanologist Dr Simon Boxall, of the University of Southampton, said a distress signal was sent out by the submarine."

"However, he didn’t know when the ping was sent out, and if it was automatic, or done by the crew members."

"Dr Boxall said: "This is second-hand knowledge but my understanding is that they have received a signal from the submarine."

"You can't use radios underwater. You rely totally on 'pings'. What they have is really limited communication."

So it's unclear to me if the passengers knew anything was wrong. It sounds like the ping might have been automatic or might not have happened at all.
JMO

 

[JennieM]

New mission to submersible debris site underway​

It has been confirmed by Pelagic Research Services that a new mission to the Titan debris site is underway.

The company operates the Odysseus remote-operated vehicle (ROV), which discovered the debris and is the only ROV so far to visit the site.
It was launched from its ship, the Horison Arctic, at 16:30 BST this afternoon, with the mission to keep on mapping and documenting the area and helping in the recovery of debris.

The ROV took a little over an hour to travel to the debris site.
CNN reported a short time ago that the debris from the Titan sub is too heavy for Pelagic's ROV to lift, and recovery would need to take place at a later stage.


PA MediaCopyright

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

'Navy passed on information it had' - White House​

In the last few minutes John Kirby, chief spokesman with the US Department for Defense, has spoken at the White House briefing room.

He was asked by a reporter about the sound of an implosion which the US Navy had detected.

"The navy did pass on to the incident commander the acoustic data that they had received," Kirby confirmed.

"They were also quick to make clear that they couldn’t be definitive about what that data meant. And they couldn’t be clear that that data was connected to the submersible."

He says the information was passed to the incident commander in charge of the search for Titan, and it likely "factored into the search plan in some way".

Asked if there were concerns that resources were wasted in the search, Kirby said "no", and that the coast guard has commented more fully on it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

Canada's transportation safety board launches probe​

Canada's Transportation Safety Board (TSB) says it is launching an investigation into the implosion of the Titan submersible.

The five passengers aboard the vessel had begun their expedition to the Titanic wreck site aboard the Polar Prince, a Canadian cargo ship.

The ship, which had 17 crew members and 24 people were on board, was providing surface support to the Titan but lost contact an hour and 45 minutes after the submersible began its descent.

In a Friday statement, the TSB said it would conduct "a safety investigation regarding the circumstances" of the fatal operation.

A team of TSB investigators is now en route to St John’s, Newfoundland - from where the journey began - to "gather information, conduct interviews, and assess the occurrence", with other agencies on the ground also expected to be involved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

Concerns raised about Titan sub in international waters​

Jennifer McKiernan
Live reporter

The OceanGate sub was operating in so-called international waters, also known as the high seas, which are areas outside territorial waters.
Territorial waters extend 12 nautical miles (22 km) from a nation's coast, and a further 200 nautical miles (370 km) offshore can be claimed as an 'exclusive economic zone', under the United Nations Law of the Sea Convention.

Beyond that - and the Titanic wreck is about 350 nautical miles (648 km) off the coast of Newfoundland in Canada - vessels enter a limbo area where no state has full control.

Instead, individual ships are subject to the rules of the nation whose flag they're sailing under - and because submersibles are carried by another ship, they fall into a grey area where they can be effectively unregulated.

Five years ago, the Marine Technology Society, a group of 38 leading experts on submersible technology, voiced urgent fears about the safety of the Titan and US-based OceanGate's practices, specifically its voyages to the Titanic.

One signatory of that 2018 letter, Bart Kemper, highlighted how deploying the sub in international waters meant it avoided having to abide by US regulations, such as the US Passenger Vessel Safety Act.

The 1993 Act does regulate submersibles that carry passengers, requiring them to be registered with the Coast Guard.

But that law did not apply to the Titan because it did not fly a US flag, nor was it operating in US waters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

Key questions answered​

Why did the Titan implode?

The pattern of the debris suggests that at some point in the Titan's journey there was a leak. The amount of water above it would have been equivalent to the weight of the Eiffel Tower.

Was there an early warning system?

On its website, OceanGate also says the vessel's hull was fitted with ''a real-time hull health monitoring system''.

Had it operated as it should have, the tragedy would likely have been averted.

If the cause of the accident was a hull breach, investigators will want to find out why it failed.

How will the investigation be carried out?
Investigators will be gathering every piece of the debris they can find, according to Ryan Ramsey, former submarine captain in Britain's Royal Navy.

It is unclear at this stage which agency will lead the investigation, but as the US Coast Guard has played a leading role in the operation so far, it is likely to continue to play an important part.

Read more here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[ArianeEmory]

Randomly:

I think part of the problem is that there have been multiple pools of information that don’t always overlap:

—What the Coast Guard knew (and what they were admitting to media, and when)

—What OceanGate knew internally

—What people peripherally associated with OceanGate knew and were occasionally leaking to the press (IIRC, the very first debris field report came in from like … “a friend of an OceanGate executive” or something.)

—What the informal but very well-informed “community” of deep sea explorers knew and were sharing amongst themselves. James Cameron made it sound like they all pretty much knew there had to have been an implosion days ago, but respectfully kept silent while it played out.

(Speaking only for myself, I tend to discount talking head/cable news “experts” unless they’re directly affiliated with some aspect of an event. Been burned too many times by “retired FBI experts” who aren’t actually involved in a case and have no access to the case info, just for example.)

 

[JennieM]

UK and US officials picked up a “large acoustic signal” indicating an implosion of the Titan sub days ago, but did not release the information to the public or some members of the rescue teams because it was classified, according to a report.

The implosion was picked up by a “classified military device” in the North Atlantic and assessed by officials from the UK and US shortly after communication was lost with the Titan vessel, a UK naval source told the i.

The source said:

Whilst it would appear that classified systems may have heard noises detailing an implosion… as with all searches, you have to remain optimistic until you can categorically declare to the contrary.

The UK’s foreign office had been in regular contact with the victims’ families, who “might have been told different” to what was made public, the source said.

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...08657ec7321d29#block-6495ec188f08657ec7321d29

 

[Jade]

Were Mr Reiss and his wife simple fools conned by (huckster) Rushton, too?? I don't think they feel that way.

'Simpsons' Writer Mike Reiss Reveals Titanic Sub Experience, Tech Issues on Ocean Floor

Mike Reiss says he would not go back if these guys don’t make it back safely “fool me once shame on you”

He trusted in Stockton Rush he says in the video interview.

In contrast to the interviewers who look so sad and serious he’s laughing and smiling saying there’s utter calm if they’re stuck down there because he was calm. He wasn’t stuck!

Mike Reiss seems a perfect target for a huckster looking to separate money from a clueless tourist, imo

The company was founded in 2009 by Stockton Rush and Guillermo Söhnlein.[2][3] In 2017, the founder stated that providing high-end tours was a gateway to more profitable business.[4]

OceanGate - Wikipedia.

all imo

 

[ifindedout]

RBBM

IIRC, Titan sent up a distress signal when she was 1 hour and 45 minutes into her descent; that's the only verified communication at this point.

We may never know if Titan dropped the ascent weights and was trying to ascend. Nor do we know if Titan's inside censors actually existed, and if the occupants actually received a warning from them.

JMVHO.

BBM
If the weights can be located and mapped, it might be possible to determine from their location whether they were released in a controlled manner, or if they were simply scattered about in the implosion. MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

New mission to submersible debris site underway​

It has been confirmed by Pelagic Research Services that a new mission to the Titan debris site is underway.

The company operates the Odysseus remote-operated vehicle (ROV), which discovered the debris and is the only ROV so far to visit the site.
It was launched from its ship, the Horison Arctic, at 16:30 BST this afternoon, with the mission to keep on mapping and documenting the area and helping in the recovery of debris.

The ROV took a little over an hour to travel to the debris site.
CNN reported a short time ago that the debris from the Titan sub is too heavy for Pelagic's ROV to lift, and recovery would need to take place at a later stage.

View attachment 430712
PA MediaCopyright

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

Glad to see this—I mentioned yesterday that I hoped the Titan debris would be recovered and not become its own tourist site. I would imagine it’ll also be helpful in figuring out what happened.

 

[10ofRods]

If we go by this, there are dozens of tours of memorial sites over the entire world that need to be shut down.

Usually, memorial sites are not at the scene of the tragic accident. The USS Arizona Memorial is a major exception, although there are memorials in wild places where no bodies could be recovered - and the Titanic wreck has rules governing it (UK and USA jointly administer), so very much like the Arizona Memorial. Military approval had to be given for the Arizona Memorial and at the time, it was thought disrespectful to try and retrieve what was left of the remains. Sailors tend to prefer watery burials, anyway. At any rate, the military deciding on the memorial at least has some aspect of government approval.

I am guessing that the families, themselves, are not in full agreement, as would be normal. Really, solving the whole problem would only take the US/UK agreeing that all submersibles needed prior permission. The agreement is set up so that either the UK or the US can give permission (I'm sure differences in opinion could be worked out).

I would think that on safety issues alone, the two governments should revoke permission unless under the auspices of a major university (which is how archaeological sites are managed - no one can take anything from them, except an archaeologist employed as the chief archaeologist of the one university authorized per archaeological site/region; all the stuff goes to that university for study, and then there are laws about what can be exhibited and ways to challenge university handling and ownership of stuff.

IMO.

 

[JennieM]

42m ago

The search for the missing Titan submersible is expected to cost the US Coast Guard millions of dollars.

OceanGate, the company that built and ran the vessel, will probably not be required to reimburse the US government for search operation.

Paul Zukunft, a former US Coast Guard commander, told the Washington Post:

It’s no different than if a private citizen goes out and his boat sinks. We go out and recover him. We don’t stick them with the bill after the fact.

3h ago

US transport safety watchdog to try to find potential cause of sub implosion​

The US Coast Guard has asked the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to assist in the investigation into the Titan’s implosion, NBC News is reporting, citing a source.

The NTSB’s office of Marine Safety, in conjunction with the Coast Guard, will attempt to find the potential cause of the deep-sea catastrophe, the source said.

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

 

[JennieM]

3h ago

OceanGate, the company behind the Titan submersible, exaggerated details of the industry partnerships behind the development and engineering of its sub.

On its website, the company said its “state-of-the-art vessel” was “designed and engineered by OceanGate Inc. in collaboration experts from NASA, Boeing and the University of Washington”.

But Boeing and the University of Washington have denied OceanGate’s claim that they helped design the sub. A Boeing spokesperson told ABC News:

Boeing was not a partner on the Titan and did not design or build it.

The University of Washington also released a statement saying that it was not involved in creating OceanGate’s Titan submersible.

Nasa has confirmed it “consulted on materials and manufacturing processes for the submersible”. But a statement to Insider added:

NASA did not conduct testing and manufacturing via its workforce or facilities, which was done elsewhere by OceanGate.

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gardenista]

3h ago

OceanGate, the company behind the Titan submersible, exaggerated details of the industry partnerships behind the development and engineering of its sub.

On its website, the company said its “state-of-the-art vessel” was “designed and engineered by OceanGate Inc. in collaboration experts from NASA, Boeing and the University of Washington”.

But Boeing and the University of Washington have denied OceanGate’s claim that they helped design the sub. A Boeing spokesperson told ABC News:


The University of Washington also released a statement saying that it was not involved in creating OceanGate’s Titan submersible.

Nasa has confirmed it “consulted on materials and manufacturing processes for the submersible”. But a statement to Insider added:

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

Um, I definitely posted a link to Univ of Washington's YT channel the first day of this showing their collab with OceanGate. There are numerous videos.

 

[MsMarple]

Um, I definitely posted a link to Univ of Washington's YT channel the first day of this showing their collab with OceanGate. There are numerous videos.

I found one announcement from UW about their collaboration with OceanGate. Note the Summer 2023 edit:

A joint venture between the UW's Applied Physics Laboratory and the company OceanGate to produce a manned submersible capable of reaching depths few other vehicles can is now being tested in the ocean. Watch the video on their YouTube channel.

Added Summmer 2023: The vessel that resulted from this partnership was a steel-hulled submersible that can travel to 500 meters (0.3 miles) depth, named the Cyclops 1.

OceanGate to produce a manned submersible

A joint venture between the UW's Applied Physics Laboratory and the company OceanGate to produce a manned submersible capable.

www.ocean.washington.edu

 

[PrairieWind]

RBBM

IIRC, Titan sent up a distress signal when she was 1 hour and 45 minutes into her descent; that's the only verified communication at this point.

We may never know if Titan dropped the ascent weights and was trying to ascend. Nor do we know if Titan's inside censors actually existed, and if the occupants actually received a warning from them.

JMVHO.

where does the info about a distress signal come from? And how would Cameron know if ascent weights were dropped?