Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[iamshadow21]

3h ago

OceanGate, the company behind the Titan submersible, exaggerated details of the industry partnerships behind the development and engineering of its sub.

On its website, the company said its “state-of-the-art vessel” was “designed and engineered by OceanGate Inc. in collaboration experts from NASA, Boeing and the University of Washington”.

But Boeing and the University of Washington have denied OceanGate’s claim that they helped design the sub. A Boeing spokesperson told ABC News:


The University of Washington also released a statement saying that it was not involved in creating OceanGate’s Titan submersible.

Nasa has confirmed it “consulted on materials and manufacturing processes for the submersible”. But a statement to Insider added:

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

See, this is one area I see as REALLY deceptive. Because NASA, Boeing, and UoW all have reputations. People associate, in particular, NASA and Boeing with a long pedigree of engineering and design that includes RIGOROUS testing and modelling and working out the kinks. Just putting 'in collaboration with NASA' makes my brain go, oh, wow, it's legit. You're putting the pedigree of NASA, the pedigree of Boeing, behind your craft like banners of endorsement. And people trust that branding. They trust universities, too. I know absolutely nothing about UoW's engineering and physics pedigrees, but I bet they're impressive enough to people who know science for OceanGate to namedrop them.

So yeah, when OceanGate says, "Trust me", what they're saying is, "Well, they trust us, are you going to question NASA? Because they helped us build this," and as a person who flunked most of science in high school - though I love it - because my learning disability means I can't do maths beyond a primary school level which means I can't do equations, I would be awed and go, "gosh, no, I love NASA, they've done so many amazing things." And I think many people WITHOUT learning disabilities would be equally awed. The CEO is an aerospace engineer, who, in collaboration with NASA, Boeing and UoW, built this wonderful, innovative machine to go to the bottom of the world, and you can go in it - safer than crossing the street - to see the most famous shipwreck in the world from only feet away, making you only one of a handful who have seen it that way since it sank. Just sign here, please...

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

A man who signed up to be on board the Titan said he pulled out because it didn’t seem like a ‘professional diving operation’

Chris Brown told CNN that he asked for his deposit back in 2018 for potentially the same submersible trip to the Titanic that is now missing.

www.yahoo.com

Chris Brown, an explorer who has met some of those on the submersible, told CNN that he took "no pleasure" in knowing he escaped a potentially fatal journey.

Brown said he signed up in 2017 to visit the Titanic in the Titan but asked for his deposit back the next year.
Brown asked for his deposit back after he assessed that "there seemed to be a lot of risks that were outside of my control."

"I didn't like the way that they were being approached by the company," he said. For example, he said OceanGate missed its targets for reaching depths at set times.

The explorer Chris Brown spoke to CNN about the missing Titan submersible on June 21.CNN/Abaca Press/Reuters

 

[ilovewings]

IMO, OceanGate purposefully misled the public into thinking their vessels are safer than they actually are. That’s the biggest problem I have with it

I read that waiver of liability that somebody posted and am surprised that it clearly states
The vehicle is experimental, has not been certified and is made of carbon fiber.

 

[MsMarple]

Um, I definitely posted a link to Univ of Washington's YT channel the first day of this showing their collab with OceanGate. There are numerous videos.

Here’s another announcement. It’s much longer and again references Cyclops 1 not Titan but it’s clear there were discussions about developing a submersible capable of diving much deeper.

I don’t think UW was connected to Titan but the article has information on the early days of OceanGate and Stockton Rush that’s quite interesting.

Innovative deep sea manned submarine

The UW Applied Physics Lab is teaming up with a local submersible company to build an innovative five-person submarine that would travel to almost 2 miles below the ocean’s surface.

www.ocean.washington.edu

 

[fred&edna]

Mike Reiss says he would not go back if these guys don’t make it back safely “fool me once shame on you”

He trusted in Stockton Rush he says in the video interview.

In contrast to the interviewers who look so sad and serious he’s laughing and smiling saying there’s utter calm if they’re stuck down there because he was calm. He wasn’t stuck!

Mike Reiss seems a perfect target for a huckster looking to separate money from a clueless tourist, imo

The company was founded in 2009 by Stockton Rush and Guillermo Söhnlein.[2][3] In 2017, the founder stated that providing high-end tours was a gateway to more profitable business.[4]

OceanGate - Wikipedia.

all imo

Michael Reiss has lived over 60 years, he studied at Harvard and he's had a successful career. Before this was deemed a fatal excursion he would have done it again.

Call him a foolish target if ya' want... he made his own choices and will continue to do so. I bet he read the same waiver as everyone else.

 

[Dpdan]

Is there any advantage or disadvantage to either side in potential legal claims having to be made in the Bahamas?

 

[Gardenista]

Here’s another announcement. It’s much longer and again references Cyclops 1 not Titan but it’s clear there were discussions about developing a submersible capable of diving much deeper.

I don’t think UW was connected to Titan but the article has information on the early days of OceanGate and Stockton Rush that’s quite interesting.

Innovative deep sea manned submarine

The UW Applied Physics Lab is teaming up with a local submersible company to build an innovative five-person submarine that would travel to almost 2 miles below the ocean’s surface.

www.ocean.washington.edu

It's interesting at the beginning it gives a description of what's clearly the Titan. Maybe they realized it was too ambitious, scaled back and the result was the Cyclops?

 

[anneg]

I'm not up to date on this thread, so I apologize if this was posted before:

James Cameron Says He Knew About Sub Implosion Days Before Any of Us

CNNJames Cameron, the director of 1997’s Titanic, said in an interview on Thursday that he had correctly guessed the fate of the Titan submersible less than 24 hours after it disappeared on Sunday—then watched the “futile” search unfold, “hoping against hope that I was wrong.”Cameron, a prolific...

www.yahoo.com

James Cameron, the director of 1997’s Titanic, said in an interview on Thursday that he had correctly guessed the fate of the Titan submersible less than 24 hours after it disappeared on Sunday—then watched the “futile” search unfold, “hoping against hope that I was wrong.” ....

By Monday morning, though, he was in contact with his colleagues in what he called “the deep submergence community.”
Learning from them that both communications and tracking had been lost simultaneously, Cameron said he’d begun to suspect an implosion, “a shockwave of events so powerful that it actually took out” tracking, a secondary system with its own fail-safes....

He told BBC News that the next few days “felt like a prolonged and nightmarish charade where people are running around talking about banging noises and talking about oxygen and all this other stuff.”

“I knew that sub was sitting exactly underneath its last known depth and position,” he said. “That’s exactly where they found it.” ....

...On CNN, Cameron added he believes the passengers on the sub “had some warning, that they heard some acoustic signature of the hull beginning to delaminate.” ....

 

[MsMarple]

where does the info about a distress signal come from? And how would Cameron know if ascent weights were dropped?

That’s what I’ve been asking. I don’t understand how he knows this. All I can imagine is that he believes the hull sensors sounded early enough to give the passengers some time to try and surface.

There was a rumor about Titan sending a distress signal but apparently it wasn’t proven, based on a post upthread.

Here’s Cameron’s quote:

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure, and that its inside sensors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.

"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

James Cameron says the Titan passengers probably knew the submersible was in trouble

The <em>Titanic</em> director has made 33 dives to the shipwreck and visited ocean depths in a submersible he built himself. He compares OceanGate to the Titanic in that both ignored safety warnings.

www.wbur.org

Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

The problem, IMO, isn’t the inherent danger of going on an underwater excursion. It’s the fact that OceanGate didn’t have the proper equipment to safely complete such an excursion I posted a little ways back that I hadn’t realized how many manned dives (in submersibles, I mean) had been...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The thing is, Stockton Rush quite literally went down with his own ship. We can question what was written in the publicity materials and emails, but he did ultimately trust his own life to the safety of his "innovations". Knowingly risking the lives of others is one thing; knowingly risking his own is a level of commitment I wouldn't have!

I do wonder how much of what he told potential customers was a deliberate lie, and how much was due to his own tunnel-vision.

 

[10ofRods]

That’s what I’ve been asking. I don’t understand how he knows this. All I can imagine is that he believes the hull sensors sounded early enough to give the passengers some time to try and surface.

There was a rumor about Titan sending a distress signal but apparently it wasn’t proven, based on a post upthread.

Here’s Cameron’s quote:

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure, and that its inside sensors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.

"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

James Cameron says the Titan passengers probably knew the submersible was in trouble

The <em>Titanic</em> director has made 33 dives to the shipwreck and visited ocean depths in a submersible he built himself. He compares OceanGate to the Titanic in that both ignored safety warnings.

www.wbur.org

Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

The problem, IMO, isn’t the inherent danger of going on an underwater excursion. It’s the fact that OceanGate didn’t have the proper equipment to safely complete such an excursion I posted a little ways back that I hadn’t realized how many manned dives (in submersibles, I mean) had been...

www.websleuths.com

The sensors in the hull are being misunderstood by Cameron, IMO. The guy who used to work for OceanGate has been interviewed about it. The sensors were designed to measure "stress" in the hull milliseconds before failure. They did not give advance warning. They were supposed to let Rush know that the hull might be starting to fail (they could not warn of imminent and catastrophic failure of the craft; they were just a substitute for having regular NDT of the hull, as suggested by the engineer who quit).

And that was a problem. We may never know if this was cumulative stress or not.

Who inside the community could know they had dropped their weights and were coming up? Who had voice communication with the Titan? This is a huge news story, if true. There's absolutely no evidence of it - it was, as Cameron says, a "guess." Many people have guesses about this and a lot of people thought it was an implosion. But why Cameron thinks they had dropped weights needs better explanation than him getting on the phone with "members of the community,"

IMO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

where does the info about a distress signal come from? And how would Cameron know if ascent weights were dropped?

My google-fu, which used to be better because google used to be better, cannot turn up a primary source on this. An expert at university of Southampton said he had the info second hand.

Titanic submarine search: Family of missing British billionaire ‘have great faith and trust in rescuers’

Rescuers are in a race against time to find Mr Harding and four other passengers on board the 6.7 metres (22ft) long OceanGate Expeditions vessel

www.irishexaminer.com

I’m on mobile, search that page for “distress” to get the quote.

As for Cameron, I do believe that he may have inside info re the last few seconds of operation, but I also understand why he’s not exactly an authoritative source.

 

[fred&edna]

It’s hard to put myself in their places because I am too much of a chicken to do something as extreme as going in a submarine, yet I have been zip-lining and rode rollercoasters; there definitely is a big difference in the level of fearlessness required. But I can easily see how something like this might get by them when the are dealing with a large corporation that is continually reassuring them that the trip will be safe. They aren’t behind the scenes literally working on things, so everything they hear about OceanGate is going to be secondhand. And they more than likely spent quite a lot of time talking to OceanGate planning this trip, with OceanGate calming any fears they may have had.

The problem, IMO, isn’t the inherent danger of going on an underwater excursion. It’s the fact that OceanGate didn’t have the proper equipment to safely complete such an excursion, yet reassured the public that it was perfectly safe. They didn’t outwardly acknowledge that there were potential safety problems, instead framing their lack of willingness to undergo a safety inspection as “innovative” and not related to the actual safety of the ship.

This wasn’t just some random guy with a submarine. OceanGate presented themselves as a legitimate and reputable company to the public.

I obviously don’t know at this point but I I suspect we’ll be hearing some more stuff pretty soon that may not make OceanGate look that great.

MOO

Companies represent themselves as reputable ALL the time. If I was going on an excursion 12,000 ft below sea level in an experimental vessel... I'd do some research about everyone and everything involved... especially after reading the waiver! Wouldn't most of us?? I mean, seriously... take a look at that vessel... we've all looked at photos and talked about how frightening it appeared, we've all commented on the game controller guiding it. Does it look like a safe and a harmless little dive excursion to most of us?? Reading the posts... no, I don't think so. This was an experimental excursion that came with a waiver stating ENORMOUS risks to all.

If any "passengers" (non-science related) had done additional research would they still have made the journey???

 

[Cool Cats]

Explorer. Host of #ExpeditionUnknown

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671548959423356929

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671561050280566787

 

[10ofRods]

The thing is, Stockton Rush quite literally went down with his own ship. We can question what was written in the publicity materials and emails, but he did ultimately trust his own life to the safety of his "innovations". Knowingly risking the lives of others is one thing; knowingly risking his own is a level of commitment I wouldn't have!

I do wonder how much of what he told potential customers was a deliberate lie, and how much was due to his own tunnel-vision.

I have a friend (more like a brother to me, actually) who has decided that since he cannot do other risky things due to problems with his vision (he was flying planes when he was not able to correct his vision and could barely see). So he lost his pilot's license. Therefore, he started building his own experimental craft out of kits. He would launch from certain mountain sides near where we grew up. His girlfriend would track him in her car. He could see well enough to do this, but has had some hard landings, naturally (he can see better up close, so he knows when he's near the ground).

He does not take passengers, obviously. But he's willing in the first place to risk his life, as were my two relatives who died doing...unrecommended things (father and son, almost a decade apart).

It's entirely possible that Rush believed his own hype, as people often do. They make really good sales people, this type of person.

IMO. (So he wouldn't be lying to people if he believed what he said, which he likely did). I just feel very badly for the 19 year old who didn't, IMO, have enough life experience to assess the risk (and his father probably falls into that group of falling for the endorsements and the professional quality of the website, as people do).

 

[crhedBngr]

BBM
If the weights can be located and mapped, it might be possible to determine from their location whether they were released in a controlled manner, or if they were simply scattered about in the implosion. MOO

I'm hoping we can get more information on all of this, including current locations of the weights.

JMVHO.

 

[Gardenista]

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

 

[ilovewings]

I have a friend (more like a brother to me, actually) who has decided that since he cannot do other risky things due to problems with his vision (he was flying planes when he was not able to correct his vision and could barely see). So he lost his pilot's license. Therefore, he started building his own experimental craft out of kits. He would launch from certain mountain sides near where we grew up. His girlfriend would track him in her car. He could see well enough to do this, but has had some hard landings, naturally (he can see better up close, so he knows when he's near the ground).

He does not take passengers, obviously. But he's willing in the first place to risk his life, as were my two relatives who died doing...unrecommended things (father and son, almost a decade apart).

It's entirely possible that Rush believed his own hype, as people often do. They make really good sales people, this type of person.

IMO. (So he wouldn't be lying to people if he believed what he said, which he likely did). I just feel very badly for the 19 year old who didn't, IMO, have enough life experience to assess the risk (and his father probably falls into that group of falling for the endorsements and the professional quality of the website, as people do).

reading this made me sigh heavily and and shake my head-- this is arrogance on steroids

 

[crhedBngr]

where does the info about a distress signal come from? And how would Cameron know if ascent weights were dropped?

RBBM

There currently is one source, Oceanologist Dr Simon Boxall, of the University of Southampton, who heard it second hand.

Per the below-linked article from the Irish Times:

Oceanologist Dr Simon Boxall, of the University of Southampton, said a distress signal from the submersible was sent out.

He told the PA news agency: “This is second-hand knowledge but my understanding is that they have received a signal from the submarine.

Titanic submarine search: Family of missing British billionaire ‘have great faith and trust in rescuers’

As to Mr. Cameron, I'm not sure from where he is getting his information.

JMVHO.

 

[crhedBngr]

I'm not up to date on this thread, so I apologize if this was posted before:

James Cameron Says He Knew About Sub Implosion Days Before Any of Us

CNNJames Cameron, the director of 1997’s Titanic, said in an interview on Thursday that he had correctly guessed the fate of the Titan submersible less than 24 hours after it disappeared on Sunday—then watched the “futile” search unfold, “hoping against hope that I was wrong.”Cameron, a prolific...

www.yahoo.com

James Cameron, the director of 1997’s Titanic, said in an interview on Thursday that he had correctly guessed the fate of the Titan submersible less than 24 hours after it disappeared on Sunday—then watched the “futile” search unfold, “hoping against hope that I was wrong.” ....

By Monday morning, though, he was in contact with his colleagues in what he called “the deep submergence community.”
Learning from them that both communications and tracking had been lost simultaneously, Cameron said he’d begun to suspect an implosion, “a shockwave of events so powerful that it actually took out” tracking, a secondary system with its own fail-safes....

He told BBC News that the next few days “felt like a prolonged and nightmarish charade where people are running around talking about banging noises and talking about oxygen and all this other stuff.”

“I knew that sub was sitting exactly underneath its last known depth and position,” he said. “That’s exactly where they found it.” ....

...On CNN, Cameron added he believes the passengers on the sub “had some warning, that they heard some acoustic signature of the hull beginning to delaminate.” ....

RBBM

So, who are his "colleagues" in the submergence community?

JMVHO.