Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[LinasK]

The Titan was a ticking time bomb and nobody knew it. very sad.

Apparently Josh Gates and James Cameron knew better...

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

There is one operator of submersibles who goes down to the Titanic still, with passengers, and he has been on quite a few of the MSM shows this past week. Deeply saddened by the Titan loss of lives, and also deeply concerned about the fact that hte Titan was not certified as his submersible(s) are. In fact, this owner/operator took his 12 year old son with him on his certified submersible and said that his son is in the Guinness book of Wolrd Records as the youngest person to go down in a submersible dive to the Titanic.

I don't have his name, but will see if I can find one of his interviews with MSM during this past week. He strongly believes in certification and doing things the right way (testing, etc.).

Thank you for that, I must have missed his interviews.

I'm guessing his submersible follows the tried and tested design and only carries 2-3 people at one time.

 

[fred&edna]

Interesting legal info here:

Thomas Schoenbaum, a University of Washington law professor and author of the book “Admiralty and Maritime Law,” said such documents may be upheld in court if they are worded well.

At the same time, OceanGate could still face repercussions under the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, Schoenbaum said. But it may depend on which arm of OceanGate owned the Titan submersible.

Rush, the late OceanGate CEO, told AP in 2021 that it was an American company. But he said OceanGate Expeditions, which led dives to the Titanic, was based in the Bahamas.

Schoenbaum said the Bahamas subsidiary has the potential to circumvent U.S. law, but courts have at times “pierced the corporate veil” and OceanGate could be found liable.

OceanGate Expeditions, which led dives to the Titanic, was based in the Bahamas.

The countries where lawsuits may be filed could also depend on contracts signed by passengers and crew.

“I would be very surprised, in a high-risk operation like this, if the contract did not address which law applies and where any claim can be filed,” said George Rutherglen, a professor of admiralty law at the University of Virginia.

And more at link

Tourist sub's implosion draws attention to murky regulations of deep-sea expeditions

The fatal implosion of the Titan submersible has drawn attention to the murkily regulated...

www.beaumontenterprise.com

 

[Cool Cats]

Titan tragedy: Canada launches investigation; CEO of sub company ‘dismissed safety fears’ – as it happened

Canadian transport watchdog to launch safety investigation; Stockton Rush reportedly emailed deep-sea expert saying concerns were ‘baseless cries’

www.theguardian.com

TSB launches investigation into a marine occurrence involving the Canadian-flagged vessel Polar Prince and the submersible Titan - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

TSB launches investigation into a marine occurrence involving the Canadian-flagged vessel Polar Prince and the submersible Titan

www.bst-tsb.gc.ca

St John's resident places flowers in tribute to five people killed when submersible imploded.

 

[citizen_sleuth]

Interesting legal info here:

Thomas Schoenbaum, a University of Washington law professor and author of the book “Admiralty and Maritime Law,” said such documents may be upheld in court if they are worded well.

At the same time, OceanGate could still face repercussions under the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, Schoenbaum said. But it may depend on which arm of OceanGate owned the Titan submersible.

Rush, the late OceanGate CEO, told AP in 2021 that it was an American company. But he said OceanGate Expeditions, which led dives to the Titanic, was based in the Bahamas.

Schoenbaum said the Bahamas subsidiary has the potential to circumvent U.S. law, but courts have at times “pierced the corporate veil” and OceanGate could be found liable.

OceanGate Expeditions, which led dives to the Titanic, was based in the Bahamas.

The countries where lawsuits may be filed could also depend on contracts signed by passengers and crew.

“I would be very surprised, in a high-risk operation like this, if the contract did not address which law applies and where any claim can be filed,” said George Rutherglen, a professor of admiralty law at the University of Virginia.

And more at link

Tourist sub's implosion draws attention to murky regulations of deep-sea expeditions

The fatal implosion of the Titan submersible has drawn attention to the murkily regulated...

www.beaumontenterprise.com

Since the very beginning I’ve thought this company was beyond sketchy and was clearly trying to circumvent all regulations — the fact that they are registered in the Bahamas (but evidently not the US) despite being a US-based company and not actually doing any business in the Bahamas speaks volumes about how they’ve insulated themselves from accountability (legal, regulatory, or otherwise) from day one. It’s disgraceful and appalling. MOO.

 

[fred&edna]

Another experience on the Titan...

 

[fred&edna]

Since the very beginning I’ve thought this company was beyond sketchy and was clearly trying to circumvent all regulations — the fact that they are registered in the Bahamas (but evidently not the US) despite being a US-based company and not actually doing any business in the Bahamas speaks volumes about how they’ve insulated themselves from accountability (legal, regulatory, or otherwise) from day one. It’s disgraceful and appalling. MOO.

"Tongue of the Ocean" trips were mentioned/offered on the OG website. But, I have no idea if they actually took any excursions.

 

[ifindedout]

I hope OceanGate Expeditions was set up as an LLC so that Rush's widow isn't harmed by any lawsuit and that their personal assets remain untouched for her sake.

I do not see LLC in their description on Wiki, only Inc.

OceanGate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ilovewings]

Seems like plenty of people in the industry knew it. All those who would’ve liked to go and could afford to go, for various reasons did not go.

A few have spoken up already, there will be others, and even more who won’t denounce OceanGate publicly out of loyalty.

I should have rephrased: I meant to say some people who wanted to be passengers or had been passengers on this vehicle didn't know it was a ticking time bomb---

 

[JennieM]

Titanic director James Cameron reveals Titan sub's 'Achilles heel'

There were several 'potential failure points' in the submersible - and a warning system probably alerted the five crew who perished moments before the vessel imploded, Cameron said.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Boxer]

It would be more like a giant hammer, the water coming in. At that depth.

Like falling off a tall building and hitting concrete - except faster. Like being hit by a train going full speed - but likely faster.

IMO.

6000psi
A car tire is 30psi

 

[BeachSky]

This vessel was always a game of Russian Roulette. They could have imploded on the first dive, or the twentieth, but it was always going to do it. But they just kept coming back up, and so they'd spin the cylinder of that revolver and go down again with another crop of 'citizen scientists'. Unfortunately, you can only play chicken with the deep sea so many times and live to surface.

MOO

What’s really scary is if they had never found the debris . IOW if it drifted out to an unfindable area. Imploded there.
The story would be a sad mystery. Probably a -pause- but not an end to OG. I mean then it could be pilot error, passenger error, deep sea environmental problems,etc. But not the construct.
Search called off. Begin again?

All JMO

 

[Boxer]

View attachment 430786

Titanic director James Cameron reveals Titan sub's 'Achilles heel'

There were several 'potential failure points' in the submersible - and a warning system probably alerted the five crew who perished moments before the vessel imploded, Cameron said.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Car used to have dash oil lights that lit up to let you know a few seconds before your engine froze.

 

[Puzzles8]

Interesting bit from the Daily Mail.

OceanGate, the company that owned and operated the submersible that imploded on a dive to the Titanic wreck, received $447,000 in government loans under the Paycheck Protection Program, records show.
The government loan was issued in April 2020, during the first round of the emergency pandemic program, and was used to cover OceanGate's payroll costs during COVID-19 shutdowns, according to records published by ProPublica.
.....
In October 2020, Rush said that the company had spent much of the business pause during the pandemic fabricating a new hull for the Titan, after deep-water tests raised concerns that it wasn't sturdy enough for repeated cycles of pressurization.

OceanGate took out nearly $450,000 in PPP loans during pandemic

The government loan was issued in April 2020, during the first round of the emergency pandemic program, and was used to cover OceanGate's payroll costs during COVID-19 shutdowns.

www.dailymail.co.uk

JMO

 

[JennieM]

OceanGate even protected against 'negligence' by company

'I hereby assume full responsibility for the risk of bodily injury, disability, death, and property damage due to the negligence of [OceanGate],' the document states.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The three-page document makes eight references to 'death' and also asks the signatory to take 'full responsibility' for the risk of death - even if the company was negligent.

This liability agreement is such an uncomfortable read.

 

[fred&edna]

Don't companies and their subsidiaries love registering businesses in the Bahamas.. as tax haven?? I have no idea... and maybe this doesn't apply in this case.

 

[JennieM]

OceanGate Expeditions faced hurdles in executing its excursions to the Titanic. Here’s what else we know about the company​

By Curt Devine, Isabelle Chapman and Dakin Andone, CNN

[...]

Company faced hurdles executing expeditions​

OceanGate faced a series of mechanical problems and inclement weather conditions that forced the cancellation or delays of trips in recent years, according to court records.

The scuttled excursions led to a pair of lawsuits in which some high-paying customers sought to recoup the cost of trips they said they didn’t take. The complaints alleged the company overstated its ability to reach the Titanic wreckage.

A London-based travel company, Henry Cookson Adventures Ltd., accused OceanGate of not having a “seaworthy vessel” when it entered an agreement in 2016 to take up to nine passengers to the Titanic in 2018. The travel company sought to recover roughly $850,000 it paid OceanGate, according to a civil suit filed in 2021. OceanGate did not respond to the claims in court and could not be reached for comment about them.

A post on OceanGate’s website in 2018 stated “delays caused by weather and lightning” prevented the company from completing a series of test dives, but the Henry Cookson Adventures’ lawsuit questioned that description.

“The claim of a lightning strike has not been verified and the true reason may be…because the submersible vessel was unable to be certified at the time for safe operations,” the plaintiff alleged. The case was dismissed last July by the travel company, Cookson Adventures, whose spokesperson declined comment on the litigation and said the company decided not to go ahead with any projects involving OceanGate.

More recently, a Florida couple alleged in a lawsuit this year they were unable to get a refund after their planned Titanic expedition in 2018 with OceanGate was repeatedly postponed. The online docket for the case shows no response to the lawsuit.

Some expeditions were delayed after OceanGate was forced to rebuild the Titan’s hull because it showed “cyclic fatigue” and wouldn’t be able to travel deep enough to reach the Titanic’s wreckage, according to a 2020 article by GeekWire, which interviewed the company’s CEO.

In another high-profile cancellation, OceanGate last year took CBS News’ David Pogue for a dive on its submersible but called off the trip due to an equipment malfunction after descending just 37 feet, Pogue said in the broadcast. In a later dive, the vessel lost contact with its ship and couldn’t find the wreckage. “We were lost for two-and-a-half-hours,” said a passenger who spoke with CBS News.

The company has completed a number of dives to the bottom of the North Atlantic. At least 28 people visited the Titanic with OceanGate last year, according to a November court filing from an adviser to the company.

But on one of those dives, the submersible encountered a battery issue and had to be “manually attached to its lifting platform,” which led to “sustained modest damage to its external components,” according to that filing. OceanGate canceled a subsequent mission “for repairs and operational enhancements,” but reached the wreck on others, the filing stated. The company also completed a series of Titanic-wreckage dives in 2021, according to its website.

[...]

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/oceangate-expeditions-submersible-titanic/index.html

 

[arielilane]

We didn’t get the ending we wanted. But as we prepared for & processed the news, #WFLANow had a steady voice calmly explain the complexities of deep sea exploration. This is a Mark Martin appreciation post. He was scheduled for 1 hour. He gave us FIVE on our 11-hour stream.

I asked Mark if there was anything he wanted to plug. A book. A podcast. Even a social media account to follow. Nope. He said the only reason he came on was to provide reliable info. That’s it. Hours on stream, just because he wanted to combat misinformation.

Then, due to immense demand through emails/DMs to me, I invited him back and he did another THREE hours with me Friday. This is to say thank you to Mark Martin. I’d tag you Mark, but you’d rather be on your motorcycle than on Twitter. And that sir, is what it’s all about.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672392281813315587

https://twitter.com/WFLAJB

 

[Snail-Overlord]

Serious question because I have no knowledge about this kind of stuff. But would a document releasing someone from liability due to negligence actually hold up in court?

I’ve never seen or heard of anything like that. (Of course, like most people, I don’t read every waiver I ever sign from top to bottom)

Seems very slimy to me to put something like that in a waiver. MOO

 

[Sundog]

Transportation Safety Board of Canada to investigate Polar Prince role in Titan implosion

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada will investigate a Canadian support ship's role in the catastrophic implosion of the Titan submersible.

toronto.citynews.ca

TSB to investigate the role of the Polar Prince.

It makes sense that the investigation would include the support cargo ship from which Titan was launched. Interviews with crew members, etc. That would be a thorough investigation. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Polar Prince crew members are culpable of anything but they may have information that can help put some of the pieces together.