Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[ch_13]

An article about yet another expert who told Rush the Titan was flawed, only to have his warnings fall on deaf ears.

A desperate email from Stockton Rush's friend showed how resigned he was to the fact that the OceanGate CEO was spurred on, rather than deterred, by criticism of his sub

Emails obtained by Insider show that Rush's friend warned the OceanGate CEO "there comes a time logic has to overrule impatience."

www.insider.com

A few interesting bits from the article:

• The expert, Karl Stanley, told Rush that because of his ego warnings from the DSV community are having the opposite effect, writing to him that "because I see that approach as only making someone as determined as you MORE likely to go ahead with dives."
• He originally told Rush that the Titan should do fifty test dives before taking passengers, but Rush was only going to do seven. Stanley now believes Rush did a "shockingly small" number of tests.
• Stanley says that Rush was lying about electrical issues from a lightning strike causing the cancellation of the 2019 dive season, adding "Once you realize he could make up such lies, you start to question everything."

 

[mister happy]

Seems Stockton Rush was similar to the infamous Elizabeth Holmes.

 

[PrairieWind]

Yeah same. I do find it hard to have much sympathy for the others for a variety of reasons - different for each of them (for example, PH Nargeolet I do feel sad about, but he himself had lived a full life and knew the dangers well and was prepared to die down there), but I have loads of sympathy for young Suleman and his lost potential, and of course for his mum.

I can't help but feel like Stockton Rush basically got away with manslaughter, at least. JMO. You can give people all the waivers in the world to sign, it doesn't remove your ethical and moral obligation to make things as safe as possible (and I know at least where I live, having people sign a waiver doesn't actually do anything to protect you against claims of negligence anyway, though it may mitigate some claims)

It may depend on where you are and what the law is, but here waivers of liability can certainly prevent recovery for simple negligence. That is their purpose. But the person signing the waiver has to be aware of the risks. So it would depend on what Rush and OceanGate told them.

On a side note, I find the idea that the son wanted to make a video of him solving a Rubik's cube with the Titanic in the background to be pretty disrespectful.

 

[PrairieWind]

Seems Stockton Rush was similar to the infamous Elizabeth Holmes.

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Holmes was a straight up con artist actively defrauding people. Stockton Rush was actually building a sub and taking people to the Titanic (even going along himself). He was just cutting corners to do it.

 

[10ofRods]

It may depend on where you are and what the law is, but here waivers of liability can certainly prevent recovery for simple negligence. That is their purpose. But the person signing the waiver has to be aware of the risks. So it would depend on what Rush and OceanGate told them.

On a side note, I find the idea that the son wanted to make a video of him solving a Rubik's cube with the Titanic in the background to be pretty disrespectful.

I thought so too (about the cube). I'm trying to be understanding and figure that the kid was probably really anxious and his Rubik's cube was his safety item. OTOH, it tells me something about the tone of the expedition party and about the young man's sense of propriety. I find it hard that such a young person would have a thorough understanding of what he was getting into.

I've been really REALLY surprised by the number of young people who didn't realize the weight of the ocean at such depths. They are writing about their own surprise on many forums and in my classroom discussions. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as it's not a topic that comes up often (although the surfers certainly know and join in with their harrowing tales).

 

[BUF]

An article about yet another expert who told Rush the Titan was flawed, only to have his warnings fall on deaf ears.

A desperate email from Stockton Rush's friend showed how resigned he was to the fact that the OceanGate CEO was spurred on, rather than deterred, by criticism of his sub

Emails obtained by Insider show that Rush's friend warned the OceanGate CEO "there comes a time logic has to overrule impatience."

www.insider.com

A few interesting bits from the article:

• The expert, Karl Stanley, told Rush that because of his ego warnings from the DSV community are having the opposite effect, writing to him that "because I see that approach as only making someone as determined as you MORE likely to go ahead with dives."
• He originally told Rush that the Titan should do fifty test dives before taking passengers, but Rush was only going to do seven. Stanley now believes Rush did a "shockingly small" number of tests.
• Stanley says that Rush was lying about electrical issues from a lightning strike causing the cancellation of the 2019 dive season, adding "Once you realize he could make up such lies, you start to question everything."

This email chain happened four years ago … four years ago Lloyd’s Register also declined to certify the Titan.

 

[Charlot123]

Why is extreme ‘frontier travel’ booming despite the risks?

Not only do risky activities make people feel euphoric, they also convey status. But should there be limits on what tourists can do?

theconversation.com

Why are we so obsessed with extreme forms of tourism?​

Risky activities release chemicals in the brain that can be addictive. Research suggests engaging in risky tourism activities, such as scaling a high mountain, can bring about feelings of accomplishment and euphoria. Travellers report feeling alive and experiencing a sense of transformation.

Some are also attracted to the pristine, untouched and remote aspects of the locations that they visit. Furthermore, the element of fantasy associated with imagining certain places or stories, like the movie Titanic, can be alluring.

Besides physical frontiers, there is also the thrill people get at pushing the human body to its limits and facing one’s fears. Base-jumping, skydiving, bungee jumping and polar plunges are common examples of this.

In a slightly more mundane way, even tasting “scary food” pushes tourists outside of their comfort zone and helps them feel alive.

Still others make extreme tourist journeys to follow in the footsteps of their heroes, such as those who travel to Antarctica to pay homage to explorer Ernest Shackleton.

Extreme and risky activities not only make participants feel euphoric, but they also convey status. When bucket lists are ticked off and experiences shared on social media, this brings bragging rights. Research suggests many travellers seek recognition for undertaking the first, longest or most extreme experiences possible.

But frontier tourism is clearly not for all. It is usually only accessible to a privileged few, as the tragic circumstances of the Titan highlight. Passengers onboard the vessel reportedly paid US$250,000 for the voyage.

This is interesting, too. As frontiers tourism becomes mainstream, it might damage the places’ ecosystems. More than 100,000 tourists will head to Antarctica this summer. Should we worry about damage to the ice and its ecosystems?

 

[Charlot123]

I thought so too (about the cube). I'm trying to be understanding and figure that the kid was probably really anxious and his Rubik's cube was his safety item. OTOH, it tells me something about the tone of the expedition party and about the young man's sense of propriety. I find it hard that such a young person would have a thorough understanding of what he was getting into.

I've been really REALLY surprised by the number of young people who didn't realize the weight of the ocean at such depths. They are writing about their own surprise on many forums and in my classroom discussions. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as it's not a topic that comes up often (although the surfers certainly know and join in with their harrowing tales).

That is just the question of education. Not all kids study physics in high school these days. And maybe they should. Yesterday I told a very smart 8-year old about the submerge’s tragedy, and in a second he guessed, “they were crushed, at such depth”. But, that kid reads all the time. If you personally are not interested in underwater traveling, you might not realize what the problems are.

As to the cube, the Titanic happened such a long time ago. Unless people are into it, they may not realize the tragedy. You really have to be a little bit obsessed.

 

[Boxer]

This is interesting, too. As frontiers tourism becomes mainstream, it might damage the places’ ecosystems. More than 100,000 tourists will head to Antarctica this summer. Should we worry about damage to the ice and its ecosystems?

Yellowstone national park was created because tourists were raiding the place and breaking off everything they could chip away.
The US could do that internally. International solutions probably harder.

 

[Boxer]

The Titan is bit like the Earth. A bubble in a massive space that does not support human life.

 

[bestill]

Is it serendipitous that Stockton's wife is related to victims of the Titanic, or did his love of sea exploration and the Titanic bring them together or was it premeditated? Very curious about that. Regardless (imo) the Titanic has done enough damage to her world, I hope that she will be able to navigate through all of this.

 

[MsMarple]

This is interesting, too. As frontiers tourism becomes mainstream, it might damage the places’ ecosystems. More than 100,000 tourists will head to Antarctica this summer. Should we worry about damage to the ice and its ecosystems?

IMO we absolutely should worry. We’ve already seen what people have done to Mt. Everest; the human waste alone has contaminated the watershed, exposing locals to diseases.

But the climbers all return to their home countries and fresh water. And call themselves explorers.

Trash and Overcrowding at the Top of the World

With more and more people visiting it each year, Mount Everest has grown increasingly polluted. This has led to the contamination of the local watershed, which threatens the health of local people.

education.nationalgeographic.org

I read that James Cameron dropped two 500 pound weights in order to ascend from the Mariana Trench. Imagine how many sacrificial weights will eventually litter the Titanic Wreck.

All this talk of people willing to spend money on traveling to “pristine” destinations ignores the detritus and human waste some will leave behind. I’m all for legitimate exploration and scientific research and I respect casual tourists who are sensitive to the ecosystem. But I wish there were harsher punishments for those who aren’t. MOO

 

[Cryptic]

Are their other entities offering trips down to Titanic? If so, who, what do they charge, and what are their submersibles like?

My very general understanding is that Ocean Gate was the only company offering anything remotely like commercial services to the Titanic.

Evidently, other trips are charters of privately owned ultra deep diving submersibles. But as these are apparently individual transactions and not a somewhat regular commercial service, I don't think there are published prices. Likewise, seating is restricted (Sphere shaped) to 1-2 seats, plus the pilot.

As a side note, Titan's unusual sausage shaped design was also against conventional wisdom that uses spheres. But.... it was needed to boost the number of seats / passengers

 

[ch_13]

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Holmes was a straight up con artist actively defrauding people. Stockton Rush was actually building a sub and taking people to the Titanic (even going along himself). He was just cutting corners to do it.

At least Holmes never got anyone killed.

To me, there are some striking similarities between the two:

• They both subscribed to the ethos of modern Silicon Valley: "move fast and break things" and "fake it till you make it". Ethics aside, those principles are completely inappropriate when people's lives are at stake.
• They both were amateurs who did not have the requisite experience to be a leader in their industries. But they allowed their egos to blind them to reality, pushing pipe dreams while dismissing the well-founded skepticism of the experts.
• They both had considerable charisma which they used to obfuscate the truth and manipulate others who believed in their "vision".
• They both were willing to bend the truth to serve their own ends. We know that Holmes is in a class by herself and told some prodigious lies to her board and prospective investors. But Rush certainly lied by omission, told whoppers to potential customers ("safer than crossing the street") and perhaps lied about the sub's condition and problems (as evidenced by the Insider article I shared earlier). The investigation is only getting started and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Rush was also quite the accomplished liar.
• They both had pricey legal talent enmeshed in their company in perhaps inappropriate ways (David Boies for Theranos and David Concannon for OceanGate). And both companies have used the legal system to silence their critics.

 

[deadfoot13]

All this talk of people willing to spend money on traveling to “pristine” destinations ignores the detritus and human waste some will leave behind. I’m all for legitimate exploration and scientific research and I respect casual tourists who are sensitive to the ecosystem. But I wish there were harsher punishments for those who aren’t. MOO

RSBM

I was horrified watching a documentary not long ago about the attempts to clean up the enormous amount of human waste left behind on Everest along with the trash. Apparently it's quite acceptable to literally crap all over something you "conquer".

I fully support an arrangement whereby anything you bring in is documented, and if you don't bring out the same items you'll be levied a crippling fine, heavy emphasis on crippling. There should be no mercy for this kind of behavior, and financial ruin is likely the only penalty that would make a difference to these people. I don't understand why there isn't a zero tolerance policy already in place.

MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have to say the general lack of empathy towards the loss of life of the victims or their grieving family members by the media and SM has surprised me, instead it’s leaning toward blaming everyone.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/titan-sumbersible-anger-schadenfreude-1.6889506

Here's why people are being so mean about the Titan going down​

“They had it coming. They deserved it. Who's stupid enough to pay $250,000 for a ride in a tin can operated by a video game controller? Why should we be footing the bill for the rescue?

These sentiments flooded social media as countless people sounded off — and even said much, much worse — about the missing Titan submersible even before its fate and that of the five people trapped inside was known. And they didn't stop even after news emerged that the vessel had imploded and the victims' families began grieving.

When a news story has all the hallmarks of a Hollywood thriller — billionaire characters, a mysterious adventure gone wrong a massive search as the clock ticks down to zero oxygen — it is difficult to look away. Some say the tidal wave of cynical sentiment and bad jokes in social media that accompanied the coverage, and still persists, is schadenfreude, or pleasure people get by celebrating others' misfortune. Other experts say it's driven by wealth inequality, or that the response ultimately reflects a lack of civil discourse……..”

 

[10ofRods]

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Holmes was a straight up con artist actively defrauding people. Stockton Rush was actually building a sub and taking people to the Titanic (even going along himself). He was just cutting corners to do it.

Do you actually know the story of her early life, her research in Singapore and her vetting her ideas to Stanford professors? Just as with Rush, she was told her idea wouldn't work, and just like Rush, she thought she knew enough to go against experts.

She truly believed, after working in serious research and receiving praise for that work (including some work on COVID-1, which must have made her think she was really doing world class research). She truly believed that a drop of blood could provide way more information - and that she had a way of doing it without needles.

I'm not sure at what point reality pounded itself into Holmes's head - nor do I know that moment ever occurred for Rush, either. Holmes got the Dean of the School of Engineering at Stanford to give her backing and endorsement.

...she succeeded in getting her advisor and dean at the School of Engineering, Channing Robertson, to back her idea.[14]

Elizabeth Holmes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, early on, Holmes got positive feedback from people she surely thought were experts. Unfortunately, of course, the issues were biological (a medical researcher told her she was wrong) and not engineering related.

She got the US Secretary of State to sit on her board (just as Rush found people to put on his board). I do not believe she thought her invention would never work (it hadn't been produced and tested yet) when she convinced Walgreen's to help fund her. Walgreen's of course relied on the endorsements from the Secretary of State and from Stanford professors and deans.

It was during this long process of trying to raise funds that more experts started to whistleblow. I think she still believed in her idea, even then.

IMO.

 

[Sundog]

Missing Titanic sub: Youngest woman to reach Titanic wreckage says she would do it again despite risks

A Tampa woman, who is the youngest female to ever see the Titanic wreckage in person says she would do it all over again even as the search continues for the missing OceanGate submersible.

www.fox13news.com

 

[Sundog]

Are their other entities offering trips down to Titanic? If so, who, what do they charge, and what are their submersibles like?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2023/06/20/submersible-tourism-titanic-tour-cost-depth/

The Washington Post has an article about submersible tourism, but seems that most of these tours don't go as deep as the location of the Titanic.

I am trying to find the interview with the owner of the submersible tour company that does take people down to the Titanic site, I saw an interview with him the day they announced that the Titan had imploded. Will keep looking when I have time, but this article in the Post is a start.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Some say the tidal wave of cynical sentiment and bad jokes in social media that accompanied the coverage, and still persists, is schadenfreude, or pleasure people get by celebrating others' misfortune. Other experts say it's driven by wealth inequality, or that the response ultimately reflects a lack of civil discourse……..”

I think wealth inequality is a big part of it. The gap between the richest and poorest has only gotten wider, and we’re constantly seeing news of billionaire bad actors doing dumb or extremely harmful things. Combined with the pandemic (which worsened wealth inequality, doubled grocery prices while providing record profits to the giant food corps, AND made people more … generally hostile and less empathetic), the Titan situation was just an unfortunate flashpoint for a lot of frustration.

I don’t think the same reaction would have occurred if this happened even five years ago. There would be some nasty internet trolls, but it wouldn’t be quite so … widespread.

Edit: also, TikTok. Sigh.

JMO.