Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

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Interested_But_Confused said:
I agree about trace remains. But having said that, until this news was announced I was certain they wouldn't find any remains at all. Now, who knows. Perhaps everything experts thought they knew (and that I thought I knew based on what experts have said) will turn out to have been wrong.

I'm genuinely in shock because I never expected this. And I'm so happy the families might have something to say goodbye to.
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Let’s wait and see what they have…..im not hopeful after an implosion of that magnitude.
 
BUF said:
If you go to 26:13 in this video you get a better look at that front cap where passengers got in (where the window is). It is one of the pieces that was brought up. In the video it also shows how they were bolted in … which just getting into it would have freaked me out, but then knowing you were bolted in makes it even worse.

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I saw the video where he goes inside the submersible. They drill the front part shut. That made me cringe. I have never seen a submersible with a hatch that is bolted shut. Usually, a hatch is used to get in and out if there is an emergency.
 
JDG said:
Let’s wait and see what they have…..im not hopeful after an implosion of that magnitude.
Click to expand...

There's a pretty infamous picture of someone whose remains survived a deepwater implosion. In that case, I believe the family was relieved that something was identified. Wasn't at this depth though (about 3000 feet, IIRC).

Even if it's just DNA, I guess, or bone fragments, that may be of some comfort to the family and friends. If it's as gruesome as in the case I mentioned just above, though, it will be anything but comforting to know how the person died. I'm trying to be hopeful for the family and I would hate to be on that retrieval team. Brave CG and others.
 
Interested_But_Confused said:
Wow, I'm stunned. Everything I've ever heard, or that experts have ever said, suggested this shouldn't be possible. Human remains should be liquefied mush after an implosion like this; but then, maybe that is exactly what has been found.

Having said that, I don't think there has ever been an implosion at that depth with the wreckage found and recovered so quickly. Perhaps the "common knowledge" about what would happen to a human body was always wrong, and this tragedy will help us learn something new.
Click to expand...

Exactly! That's what I was thinking. Perhaps, even, there was something about one part of the Titan that was more protective.

After the initial implosion, the ocean has displaced all air and squished everything with its tremendous pressure.

However if, like the Titanic itself and some of its objects, the body (or its components) come to rest on the ocean floor, if they are not already crushed by the prior rapid event, they would then be...at 6000 PSI and somewhat stably pinned against the ocean floor - until that amazing technology was able to bring both some remains and some material back up.

Mildly graphic forensic body analysis

Don't get me wrong - I'm thinking boney parts and teeth, obviously. Teeth are a good candidate, as they can wedge into parts of the Titan and be found. /SPOILER]

To my knowledge, never before used in a retrieval operation at this depth. The fact that the equipment functioned as intended at these depths is game-changing for sea exploration - and rescue. And it was so fast.

At any rate, one theory of this kind of immense force being applied to bodies would be similar to planes crashing into Earth at 1000 mph (remains have been recovered from test pilots). Of course, all kinds of other scenarios - but indeed, something should be learned from this tragedy.
 
Four families are waiting anxiously now for news on the presumed human remains. For some it may be important for personal and/or religious reasons to be able to have a proper land burial of their loved one's remains, however partial. For some, the loss at sea and burial at the foot of the titanic may also be considered as a proper burial for their loved ones remains. It is deeply personal to the individual family members, and I hope that each one of them is able to move forward with the plans that are most comforting and significant to them.

JMO.
 
Maybe bits of bone, maybe teeth fragments, all smashed to smithereens, all co-mingled. That's my speculation. And I think they only were retrievable because they were embedded in the vessel itself.

And maybe it will make some family member happy, but it's not what people think of when they think of having remains to bury. IMO it's going to be a small amount and not anything resembling a human to anyone but a forensic anthropologist.

MOO
 
Apologies if this was posted upstream, but there seems to have been a voyage data recorder on board the Titan.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/29/us/titan-submersible-investigation-thursday/index.html

TSB investigators have collected all documents and conducted preliminary interviews with those aboard the Polar Prince, the agency said. They have also sent the vessel’s voyage data recorder, which stores audio from the ship’s bridge, to an Ottawa laboratory for analysis.
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JMVHO.
 
A detailed, yet non-mathy and not overly long, description of defects that can occur in composite material such as carbon fiber:
www.wevolver.com

How to Identify the Defects and Damages in Composite Materials and Structures?

The creation of structural properties during the manufacturing process is the hallmark of the composites process which brings in manufacturing defects that could not be foreseen during the design phase of the structure. It forces the production engineer to ask the question of discard or repair?
www.wevolver.com
Click to expand...
 

Faulty window​

Citing the viewing window on the sub, Graham-Jones explained that it was not certified to go down reach the depths of the Titanic wreckage.

He said: "I think the guy who ran this was actually making big mistakes, and was overconfident in his calculations.

"Cracks would have formed.

"They might not have been seen at first, but they start to become a little bit bigger each time before becoming a critical crack and failing."

Electrical catastrophe​

Pipes and parts of the vessel that led outside could have begun to leak.

This may have caused corrosion of some of the electronics controlling the submersible.

He said: "This could have been an electrical catastrophe. It could have been corrosion, it could have been a fire.

"Any leakage of water coming through to the electrics could lead to failure as well.

"Some of the pipes and parts that lead outside could have begun to leak. If you have a wire going outside, then those wires going through land could actually start to leak. They could have corroded."

If there was a very minor leak, the passengers may have been aware of it - though the most likely case was instant implosion, due to the sonic bang heard by ships searching.

The process of discovering a cause for the horrific incident will take a great deal of time as experts comb through the salvaged wreck, but Dr Graham-Jones said the photos released yesterday of the wreckage are identifiable.

The expert said he could see casings for piping - along with the pipes - a "floor structure", and electrical wiring.

Tiny cracks and where they could be located​

Dr Graham-Jones explained following the salvage of the wreck, investigators will begin to look for a cause of disaster in locations where cracks are usually found.

Typically, he said, this could be at joints of the vessel and where the greatest flexing is occurring.

But certain patterns of cracks on the vessel and their locations can signify what exactly went wrong - and when.

Dr Graham-Jones said: "The crack could be brittle, or ductile, and related to fatigue and de-lamination.

"By scanning under an electron microscope, you can see the fatigue and confirm the speed and direction of the cracks."

Tiny grooves along Titan's surface​

Striations in the surface could also could also tell experts how much time was between the first crack's formation and critical failure of the submarine.

Striations refer to tiny grooves or cracks that run in parallel to each other.

Dr Graham-Jones said: "Once a fatigue crack has initiated, it grows a small amount with each loading cycle, typically producing striations on some parts of fracture surfaces.

"Each striation shows the distance between each stress cycle and time to critical failure."

Was there excessive heat onboard the sub?​

Investigators looking at the mangled metal debris will also search for signs of excessive heating, corrosion and buckling, he said.

Dr Graham-Jones explained: "Has there been excessive heating, or corrosion or buckling? Distortion of joints and fittings?"

But an issue investigators could face is differentiating between problems that were already on the submarine prior to its launch, and defects which formed on the vessel after implosion.

Were there any defects from before sub went down?​

Dr Graham-Jones said: "There are three timelines: before the incident, during the incident, and after the incident."

Despite the confusion which investigators may sort through while looking at the salvaged wreck, the carbon fibre pieces should hold the answer, he said.

He explained any pressure bulkheads, such as the poly-carbonate windows or titanium and carbon fibre sections on the sub could signify the cause of disaster.

These could have held microscopic cracks, which - when under high pressure - may have splintered and caused the implosion.

Was there any wiring along the pressure bulkhead?​

Wires going through the pressure bulkhead hull could also hold the answer to why the craft failed.

Wiring onboard the vessel could have made the sub more susceptible to pressure damage if the wires were already corroded from a leak.

Dr Graham Jones said: "It is critical to make sure they try and collect carefully so that no further damage is caused to collected parts.

"From visual and magnified views, components’ crack paths can be recorded.

"Typically, a map of all these crack paths this can be fixed to a few initial locations. From these initial locations possible failure causes can be suggested."

The search and rescue operation for Titan - spanning 10,000 square miles - was wound down after debris was found last Thursday.

The US Coast Guard said two debris fields found 1,600ft from the Titanic wreckage, which is 12,500ft beneath the ocean, included the ten-ton Titan’s nose cone and front and back ends of its pressure hull.

A deep-sea robot sub dropped onto the seabed by Horizon Arctic found the debris.

US Coast Guard Rear Admiral John Mauger said the find was "consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber".

And tonight, the coastguard confirmed suspected human remains had been found.

A spokesperson said: "United States medical professionals will conduct a formal analysis of presumed human remains that have been carefully recovered within the wreckage at the site of the incident."


www.thesun.co.uk

I'm a submarine expert - 7 clues Titanic sub's mangled wreckage will reveal

A SUBMARINE expert has revealed seven clues the mangled wreckage from the doomed Titanic sub will reveal about the moment disaster struck. Dr Jasper Graham-Jones told The Sun many factors could be …
www.thesun.co.uk www.thesun.co.uk
 
What is an implosion? What happens with the debris of the Titan submersible? And more questions answered

The first five major fragments of the Titan which had been located in the debris field consisted of the vessel's tail cone and two sections of the pressure hull, the front-end bell and the aft-end bell.

...

The [Odysseus 6K] ROV did at least four dives at the Titan rescue site in order to map and document the area and assist in the discovery of debris.

...

Analysing the recovered debris could reveal important clues about what happened to the Titan, and there could be electronic data recorded by the submersible's instruments, Mr Hartsfield said.


So, no carbon fibre mentioned. The two large pressure hull pieces recovered are the titanium endcaps.

Plenty more to read, I just chose some key quotes I thought of interest for this post.

MOO
 
'Presumed' human remains recovered inside debris from imploded Titan submersible as parts returned to shore

US medical professionals also "will conduct a formal analysis of presumed human remains that have been carefully recovered within the wreckage at the site of the incident," the Coast Guard statement added.

The nature and scope of the remains were not specified.


The use of the word 'within' implies to me that whatever they found, it was embedded or encapsulated somehow in pieces of the debris they've found, not found externally or independent of those pieces. That's directly from the Coast Guard statement, so it's not a journalist that chose that word.

MOO
 
iamshadow21 said:
The use of the word 'within' implies to me that whatever they found, it was embedded or encapsulated somehow in pieces of the debris they've found, not found externally or independent of those pieces. That's directly from the Coast Guard statement, so it's not a journalist that chose that word.
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Yeah I would have presumed that anyway, I don’t think it would have survived otherwise
 
Honeybirdette said:
Yeah I would have presumed that anyway, I don’t think it would have survived otherwise
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree. I think some people out there think that perhaps there would be something like, say, an arm on the ocean floor that they could recover, but that's not the kind of situation we're dealing with, from everything I've read about implosion at this depth.

MOO
 
10ofRods said:
Exactly! That's what I was thinking. Perhaps, even, there was something about one part of the Titan that was more protective.

After the initial implosion, the ocean has displaced all air and squished everything with its tremendous pressure.

However if, like the Titanic itself and some of its objects, the body (or its components) come to rest on the ocean floor, if they are not already crushed by the prior rapid event, they would then be...at 6000 PSI and somewhat stably pinned against the ocean floor - until that amazing technology was able to bring both some remains and some material back up.

Mildly graphic forensic body analysis

Don't get me wrong - I'm thinking boney parts and teeth, obviously. Teeth are a good candidate, as they can wedge into parts of the Titan and be found. /SPOILER]

To my knowledge, never before used in a retrieval operation at this depth. The fact that the equipment functioned as intended at these depths is game-changing for sea exploration - and rescue. And it was so fast.

At any rate, one theory of this kind of immense force being applied to bodies would be similar to planes crashing into Earth at 1000 mph (remains have been recovered from test pilots). Of course, all kinds of other scenarios - but indeed, something should be learned from this tragedy.
Click to expand...

I agree. There were five relatively large men on board Titan. 800-1000lbs of human body doesn't vanish completely, but in an earlier post I compared the effects of the implosion to putting meat and bone in a blender. What I expected to be left would be so pulverized that it would be scattered by the current and quickly consumed by ocean fauna.

I'm not hopeful that anything more than a few traces have been found, but at the same time... I just don't know anymore, because the chances of finding anything at all seemed almost impossible. The team who managed to salvage the wreck and possibly bring back remains of the passengers have done phenomenal work.

There's little doubt of what happened but many families would find it impossible to accept without something tangible. If nothing else, DNA proof might give the families some closure.
 
Sundog said:
Four families are waiting anxiously now for news on the presumed human remains. For some it may be important for personal and/or religious reasons to be able to have a proper land burial of their loved one's remains, however partial. For some, the loss at sea and burial at the foot of the titanic may also be considered as a proper burial for their loved ones remains. It is deeply personal to the individual family members, and I hope that each one of them is able to move forward with the plans that are most comforting and significant to them.

JMO.
Click to expand...

This is beautifully stated, thank you.
 
"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their descent weights and they were coming up to surface to try and manage the emergency."

It) felt like a prolonged and nightmarish charade where people are running around talking about banging noises and talking about oxygen and all this other stuff.

"I immediately got on the phone with some of my contacts in the deep submersible community. Within about an hour I had the following facts. They were on descent. They were at 3,500 metres, heading for the bottom at 3,800 metres


www.mirror.co.uk

Titan crew 'conscious' of cracks and tried to reach surface, says James Cameron

Titanic director and submersible expert James Cameron believes the Titan five would likely have tried to get back on surface land before the submarine implosion took their lives
www.mirror.co.uk


It matches what Cameron said early on.
 
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