Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[ch_13]

Yeah, I think one of the most likely failure points - speaking as a complete nonscientist - is going to be the seams, where the titanium caps met the carbon fibre tube. I think they look fairly undamaged because they just popped off when the carbon fibre failed, rather than getting distorted and shredded up. The stuff we're seeing all seems, besides the endcaps, to be stuff that was basically stuck on the outside... the tail, the outer shell. Not things that were inside the zone that was a different pressure. So maybe they were all popped off and thrown clear.

The carbon fibre hull, the electronics, the people... they were at ground zero. Nowhere to go.

Very much my opinion only

You may be right. Here's a video of them attaching the titanium ring to the carbon fiber hull. (The end cap would then be bolted to the ring.)

It's striking how this all appears to be done by just eyeballing it. It wasn't a dust-free, temperature & humidity controlled environment and the epoxy looks like it was spread unevenly.

I should note that this video was taken in 2018 and they apparently repaired or rebuilt the hull in 2020, but it's not yet clear exactly what that entailed.

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1674110443428667392

 

[Mirabel091]

I notice on photos of the end cap they appear to be lifting it via a rope through the hole for the porthole window. That was suggested as another weak point, wasn't it?

I wonder if they can tell if the window came off in one piece or if it shattered from what they have there. I have some doubts that they will find the window itself in those conditions if it is not attached. (Ok, it seems it would have been unlikely to be in one piece anyway. I wasn't sure.)

Titanic tourist sub photos show wreckage being brought ashore

Pieces of the submersible are seen for the first time after being recovered from the Atlantic.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Gardenista]

Raw video

 

[iamshadow21]

I notice on photos of the end cap they appear to be lifting it via a rope through the hole for the porthole window. That was suggested as another weak point, wasn't it?

Titanic tourist sub photos show wreckage being brought ashore

Pieces of the submersible are seen for the first time after being recovered from the Atlantic.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yeah, even if it wasn't the failure point, I expect the forces involved in the implosion would have turned the Perspex to powder. It wasn't rated to those depths, nowhere near, anyway, and being part of the pressure event, I had no doubt that it was going to be missing if they found the endcaps otherwise intact.

MOO

 

[bestill]

How difficult and painful this must be for families to watch.

To me seeing the large pieces that have been recovered makes it more painful, just adds to the questions I already have. So dang sad.

 

[bestill]

Raw video

I wonder if someone will capture stills and label each piece so we know what they are?

 

[Wallendo]

It is important who did the Titanic Ventures gain the underlying salvage rights from? The company that owned Titanic eventually merged with another one. Theoretically speaking, the ownership of Titanic was British/US (talk transnational corporations, ultimately, JP Morgan owned Titanic).

So, essentially, are the remains British/US/both?

If the Titanic sank at international waters, is it no one's?

Does Titanic Historical Society have a say?

Do the descendants of the Titanic victims have any rights?

If Nargeolet personally sold artifacts, I won't be surprised nor shocked as he was merely following in the footsteps of many others. This is commonplace in archeology. (You can buy a Greek vase online, you just have to buy from a list of certified buyers. But how are these artifacts sourced out? Check Ebay, anything ancient. Many of these items are real. Where do they come from, though?)

The museums have the right to sell parts of their collections, too. To buy something else.

I would like to know given that Reagan had signed the act proclaiming the Titanic to
be a memorial, how did Titanic Ventures gained the rights? Surely not from Reagan. From whom?

This is a little bit concerning, legally. At least three huge businessmen perished on the Titanic. (One of NYC best museums bears the name of one of them.)

Another one chose to die to save some unknown women and children.

Now, who had the right to forward the right to Titanic Ventures? I bet not their descendants.

I don't mind rich people buying antiquities provided they make museums open to public. Think Getty's museum and Villa.

But this story is...something else?

This is a long read but should have the information you want:

R.M.S Titanic - Frequently Asked Questions

General Agreement Concerning the Shipwrecked Vessel R.M.S. Titanic and Section 113 of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2017 Status and History of R.M.S. Titanic R.M.S. Titanic Maritime Memorial Act of 1986 (Titanic Memorial Act) NOAA's Protection of R.M.S. Titanic Pursuant to the...

www.noaa.gov

As for private property on the ship:
The property and personal effects at the wreck site may be subject to claims of private ownership but would also be subject to the maritime law of salvage and a right for a reward for its salvage or recovery.

 

[CharlesRedding]

I read this twice and still I am a bit confused as to what race has anything to do with this. Someone please give me some insight as I genuinely don't understand?

Titanic tour CEO didn’t hire ‘50-year-old white guys’ because they weren’t ‘inspirational’

“Anyone can drive the sub” with a $30 video game controller, Titanic tour guide and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once said.

nypost.com

 

[kccorona]

I read this twice and still I am a bit confused as to what race has anything to do with this. Someone please give me some insight as I genuinely don't understand?

Titanic tour CEO didn’t hire ‘50-year-old white guys’ because they weren’t ‘inspirational’

“Anyone can drive the sub” with a $30 video game controller, Titanic tour guide and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once said.

nypost.com

I of course can only guess at the intended implication, but I think this is a relatively common concept for innovators. I would guess he meant something along the lines of let’s get some ideas and input from new and diverse (in terms of age, race, gender) individuals, rather than relying on the ideas of the same demographic that has long dominated fields of engineering, tech, science, etc.
Of course just my opinion and experience- speaking as a female in a STEM field, married to a white male also in a STEM career, both of us in workplaces largely filled with white males.

 

[iamshadow21]

I of course can only guess at the intended implication, but I think this is a relatively common concept for innovators. I would guess he meant something along the lines of let’s get some ideas and input from new and diverse (in terms of age, race, gender) individuals, rather than relying on the ideas of the same demographic that has long dominated fields of engineering, tech, science, etc.
Of course just my opinion and experience- speaking as a female in a STEM field, married to a white male also in a STEM career, both of us in workplaces largely filled with white males.

<modsnip> Rush doesn't seem to have brooked anyone questioning him. I doubt that he gathered a diverse young team because he wanted a communal creative process. Rush seems more a 'my way or the highway' style of boss.

MOO

 

[deadfoot13]

I read this twice and still I am a bit confused as to what race has anything to do with this. Someone please give me some insight as I genuinely don't understand?

Titanic tour CEO didn’t hire ‘50-year-old white guys’ because they weren’t ‘inspirational’

“Anyone can drive the sub” with a $30 video game controller, Titanic tour guide and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once said.

nypost.com

It has nothing to do with race. Its use is alluding to the stereotype of middle-aged men being complacent and conservative in their manner of thinking. The context is that he wanted individuals who were innovative thinkers and not afraid to take risks, not people who were conformist or cautious in their manner.

MOO.

ETA: punctuation correction.

 

[kccorona]

<modsnip> Rush doesn't seem to have brooked anyone questioning him. I doubt that he gathered a diverse young team because he wanted a communal creative process. Rush seems more a 'my way or the highway' style of boss.

MOO

Great points. Definitely follows in line with what we know about Rush, especially from the numerous accounts of other “50yo white men” who did challenge his ideas or raise concerns with his concepts.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Yeah, I think one of the most likely failure points - speaking as a complete nonscientist - is going to be the seams, where the titanium caps met the carbon fibre tube. I think they look fairly undamaged because they just popped off when the carbon fibre failed, rather than getting distorted and shredded up. The stuff we're seeing all seems, besides the endcaps, to be stuff that was basically stuck on the outside... the tail, the outer shell. Not things that were inside the zone that was a different pressure. So maybe they were all popped off and thrown clear.

The carbon fibre hull, the electronics, the people... they were at ground zero. Nowhere to go.

Very much my opinion only

I think you're likely to be exactly right, and that will have been pretty much what happened. Everything external to the carbon fibre tube appears to have fallen away with minimal damage.

I notice on photos of the end cap they appear to be lifting it via a rope through the hole for the porthole window. That was suggested as another weak point, wasn't it?

I wonder if they can tell if the window came off in one piece or if it shattered from what they have there. I have some doubts that they will find the window itself in those conditions if it is not attached. (Ok, it seems it would have been unlikely to be in one piece anyway. I wasn't sure.)

Titanic tourist sub photos show wreckage being brought ashore

Pieces of the submersible are seen for the first time after being recovered from the Atlantic.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is only my best guess, but I would assume the rating of the porthole had more to do with the strength of the frame and bolt attachments than the strength of the acrylic window itself. Acrylic is remarkably strong, especially at 7 inches thick. If the porthole is no longer attached to the endcap I think it's likely the bolts sheared off rather than the window breaking.

 

[BUF]

If you go to 26:13 in this video you get a better look at that front cap where passengers got in (where the window is). It is one of the pieces that was brought up. In the video it also shows how they were bolted in … which just getting into it would have freaked me out, but then knowing you were bolted in makes it even worse.

 

[PrairieWind]

I notice on photos of the end cap they appear to be lifting it via a rope through the hole for the porthole window. That was suggested as another weak point, wasn't it?

I wonder if they can tell if the window came off in one piece or if it shattered from what they have there. I have some doubts that they will find the window itself in those conditions if it is not attached. (Ok, it seems it would have been unlikely to be in one piece anyway. I wasn't sure.)

Titanic tourist sub photos show wreckage being brought ashore

Pieces of the submersible are seen for the first time after being recovered from the Atlantic.

www.bbc.co.uk

My understanding was that the window assembly was not rated for any where near these depths. It had worked up to now however. The fact that the window is clearly not in the frame of the titanium sphere is interesting. That would be a potential weak point. I would think though that if the window failed we might see more damage to the titanium sphere, but i don't know.

 

[PrairieWind]

I read this twice and still I am a bit confused as to what race has anything to do with this. Someone please give me some insight as I genuinely don't understand?

Titanic tour CEO didn’t hire ‘50-year-old white guys’ because they weren’t ‘inspirational’

“Anyone can drive the sub” with a $30 video game controller, Titanic tour guide and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once said.

nypost.com

I wonder if he was making these statements to be "woke compatible" in order to be qualified for certain investors.

 

[duckcat]

If you go to 26:13 in this video you get a better look at that front cap where passengers got in (where the window is). It is one of the pieces that was brought up. In the video it also shows how they were bolted in … which just getting into it would have freaked me out, but then knowing you were bolted in makes it even worse.

The discussion around the 13 minute mark regarding the issues with electronics is eye-opening. I have been wondering whether there was an issue with firing the thrusters, causing a too rapid descent and then catastrophic implosion due to the speed and pressure change. I have no doubt that the issues surrounding the bonding and carbon fiber hull were bound to erupt at some point anyways with normal operations, but it just seems like there were multiple points of failure. An electronics failure being the catalyst seems like a much bigger and preventable oversight.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

My understanding was that the window assembly was not rated for any where near these depths. It had worked up to now however. The fact that the window is clearly not in the frame of the titanium sphere is interesting. That would be a potential weak point. I would think though that if the window failed we might see more damage to the titanium sphere, but i don't know.

Based on what I've read, the porthole was only rated to 1500m because Rush wasn't willing to pay to have it tested for deeper water. Whether it's testing for pressure, voltage, or just about anything, more complex and expensive testing is required the higher you want the rating to be.

We may never know if the porthole was actually strong enough to withstand the pressure at 4000m. It may well have been. But it never had the tests that would have proven it one way or the other.

 

[duckcat]

I wonder if he was making these statements to be "woke compatible" in order to be qualified for certain investors.

His statement about this has really irked me. I’m a visual designer, but one of my first jobs was for an industrial design office led by an old guy with the exact same sentiment. All it means is: cheap labor who will not challenge me and who can be thrown under the bus when the time comes. For the minor blips or deadlines misses he can chalk it up to his young and inexperienced employees and grovel about his service to the community, employing young and underrepresented demographics. OceanGate, (headquartered in a state with 0 income tax for Rush and his wife btw) probably got a nice tax incentive to go along with it. Investors really actually don’t care about demographics, they just need to see the $$$.