Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

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Yes, I'll be shocked if there aren't lawsuits filed, maybe even criminal charges. From the three photos I posted earlier, of the big group shots of Missions 2, 3 and 4. I'm guessing the woman next to Stockton in all those photos is his wife, Wendy. Interesting that she's not listed as an officer of the company or on the BOD, but I think her title was Communications Director, per her LinkedIn page.

Certainly she had knowledge of the safety reports from Lochridge and the following lawsuit. Maybe she should have had a duty of care to step in and do something at that point. I found the lawsuit document online and it's pretty easy reading for someone even without an advanced degree in science. I'm so curious if Wendy actually went down on the sub or if she preferred to stay on the boat? Did she think it was safe?

I'm guessing there will be a lawsuit and all their internal communications, such as emails will be subpoenaed to see who knew what and if they in fact thought it was too dangerous to dive the Titan.

DocumentCloud

On page 5, Lochridge admits he "mooned" some OceanGate staff in jest! lol Guess he had an interesting sense of humor!
 
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JDG said:

Court protection for OceanGate?
Click to expand...

I posted an article earlier that explains this in more detail, it's related to an 1851 maritime law that protected the owners of the Titanic in court from lawsuits after the Titanic sank. Maritime law experts are wondering if the same law could apply here in relation to the submersible, Titan, imploding in international waters.

Here is the link to the article which expands on the quote below and how the law might be applied in this situatin to limit liability for OceanGate in relation to any lawsuits brought forward -

www.independent.co.uk

An 1851 maritime law protected Titanic owners in court. Could OceanGate use it too?

The owners of Titanic sought to limit liability following the ship’s sinking by petitioning under 1851 legislation. The owners of the submersible lost on its dive to visit that famed ship’s wreckage may do the same thing, legal experts tell Sheila Flynn
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

Experts tell The Independent that one 172-year-old piece of legislation could prove pivotal for the company: the Limitation of Liability Act of 1851.

“It is an interesting situation because of where it happened in international waters – there's a lot of complex issues of choice of law and jurisdiction about where any disputes may take place, what companies or what entity and government authorities will investigate,” Tulane University adjunct maritime law professor Michael Harowski, who teaches a course at the renowned institution’s law school on limitation liability, tells The Independent.

“It’ll be fascinating to see how it plays out, because actually, going back to the original Titanic disaster, that raised a lot of the same concerns and issues as to liability – and, in fact, the owners of the Titanic in the United States did seek protection under the limitation of liability.”
 
Sundog said:
I posted an article earlier that explains this in more detail, it's related to an 1851 maritime law that protected the owners of the Titanic in court from lawsuits after the Titanic sank. Maritime law experts are wondering if the same law could apply here in relation to the submersible, Titan, imploding in international waters.

Here is the link to the article which expands on the quote below and how the law might be applied in this situatin to limit liability for OceanGate in relation to any lawsuits brought forward -

www.independent.co.uk

An 1851 maritime law protected Titanic owners in court. Could OceanGate use it too?

The owners of Titanic sought to limit liability following the ship’s sinking by petitioning under 1851 legislation. The owners of the submersible lost on its dive to visit that famed ship’s wreckage may do the same thing, legal experts tell Sheila Flynn
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

Experts tell The Independent that one 172-year-old piece of legislation could prove pivotal for the company: the Limitation of Liability Act of 1851.

“It is an interesting situation because of where it happened in international waters – there's a lot of complex issues of choice of law and jurisdiction about where any disputes may take place, what companies or what entity and government authorities will investigate,” Tulane University adjunct maritime law professor Michael Harowski, who teaches a course at the renowned institution’s law school on limitation liability, tells The Independent.

“It’ll be fascinating to see how it plays out, because actually, going back to the original Titanic disaster, that raised a lot of the same concerns and issues as to liability – and, in fact, the owners of the Titanic in the United States did seek protection under the limitation of liability.”
Click to expand...
Interesting. I agree it will be very complex. I also think OceanGate will have little to no assets to even recover for the families.

But I think the families of Hamish Harding and the the very wealthy father/son have practically limitless assets and lawyers at their fingertips and will pursue lawsuits to seek justice for their loved ones and to try to assign blame in efforts to preventing a tragedy like this in the future. For them, it won't be about money, it will be about justice. And I won't be surprised, if they start some sort of Foundation in their loved ones' honor, related to safety in deep sea exploration.

All I know is I wouldn't want a billionaire pursuing me legally.......case or no case, they could drag a person into courts for years, costing lots of legal fees.

If Wendy or other employees knew this was dangerous and allowed the dives to continue so they could earn profits, then they deserve to spend the last of their assets on attorneys, and end up disgraced and penniless.
 
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alsleuther said:
Interesting. I agree it will be very complex. I also think OceanGate will have little to no assets to even recover for the families.

But I think the families of Hamish Harding and the the very wealthy father/son have practically limitless assets and lawyers at their fingertips and will pursue lawsuits to seek justice for their loved ones and to try to assign blame in efforts to preventing a tragedy like this in the future.

If Wendy or other employees knew this was dangerous and allowed the dives to continue so they could earn profits, then they deserve to spend the last of their assets on attorneys, and end up penniless.
Click to expand...

I almost wonder if the opposite is true. The fact that the victims are so rich, is it even worthwhile to pursue a lawsuit? It will take many years of painful legal wrangling and maybe they'll get $5 or $10 million in a wrongful death suit. It would be the equivalent of a regular person getting a settlement of $1,000.

If they do sue, it will probably be only to get justice for their loved ones instead of any monetary gain. But the principal wrongdoers, Rush and Nargeolet, are dead, and OceanGate is unlikely to have much in the way of assets. Perhaps they can pierce the corporate veil and go after the BoD and Wendy Rush, but will suing the ancillaries really make the families feel like justice was served?
 
alsleuther said:
If Wendy or other employees knew this was dangerous and allowed the dives to continue so they could earn profits, then they deserve to spend the last of their assets on attorneys, and end up disgraced and penniless.
Click to expand...

I don't wish disgrace and pennilessness on anyone, and see Mrs. Rush and her children as victims as well as the other families. Coming from a wealthy family, I hope she has assets that are outside of OceanGate (pre-marital assets) and that they have managed to set up marital assets in a way that they are protected from before they established OceanGate, in the same way an LLC would be set up.

I hope that each of the victims' family members deals with this tragedy in whatever way brings them peace, and that includes Stockton Rush's family. Maybe some of the victims' families will become advocates for regulations regarding deep dives to the Titanic and other extreme expeditions. Some may want to file a civil lawsuit against OceanGate.

I have great compassion for each of the victims' families, including the family of Stockton Rush, and for the loved ones of PH Nargoelet, Hamish Harding, and the Dawood family.
 
Charlot123 said:
.


Well, there probably will be many lawsuits.

I only wonder whether Lockridge, who essentially did his job well, is entitled to any compensation for the time, money and energy spent trying to protect and save people who he yet didn’t know and who’d one day be underwater?

If there is any real hero of the story, it is David Lockridge. I understand that he refuses to comment, I hope that one day, he will.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is, he's probably feeling devastated that he didn't push harder and more emphatically.

These types of situations create cascades of victims and he is very much one.
 
Sundog said:
I don't wish disgrace and pennilessness on anyone, and see Mrs. Rush and her children as victims as well as the other families. Coming from a wealthy family, I hope she has assets that are outside of OceanGate (pre-marital assets) and that they have managed to set up marital assets in a way that they are protected from before they established OceanGate, in the same way an LLC would be set up.

I hope that each of the victims' family members deals with this tragedy in whatever way brings them peace, and that includes Stockton Rush's family. Maybe some of the victims' families will become advocates for regulations regarding deep dives to the Titanic and other extreme expeditions. Some may want to file a civil lawsuit against OceanGate.

I have great compassion for each of the victims' families, including the family of Stockton Rush, and for the loved ones of PH Nargoelet, Hamish Harding, and the Dawood family.
Click to expand...

<modsnip - off topic>

We need some of the families to become advocates for transparency and several layers of safety. My condolences to all of them.

But first, we, as the country, have to apologize to David Lockridge. It is us bringing him in, on an O visa, to put through such wringer. I hope all levels, whoever reported Lockridge to Rush, whoever participated in the lawsuit (my state! I don’t believe Everett is related to Rush, at all, but the court that made decision, is!). All organizations that didn’t respond, too...

Also: I sometimes read that Rush’s grandiosity was due to being born in a privileged family. I don’t think so, in fact, have reasons to believe it was not this. I think it was genetics. However, world is full of mad inventors trying to cross-breed planes with blimps, and usually they end up you-know-where. The fact that Rush was allowed to experiment and sell tickets might be due to some connections. It is probably not criminal but I hope everyone involved makes a conclusion.
 
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Watching the promotional videos and seeing the group pictures of each group involved in a single Mission, you can tell this was a tight knit group of people that spent days at a time together, living and breathing, underwater exploration and Titan talk. Their entire life while on the boat was working on the Titan.

Just think about all the mishaps we have read about from guests on the boat, passengers and outsiders - electrical failures, the platform sinking under a fishing line, the propellers installed backwards, communication breakdown, etc. Imagine what the actual employees at OceanGate saw - that times ten, I am sure! And I'm sure they knew all the details of Lochridge and his safety concerns. If you work closely in an office and especially on a boat with 30 people and Rush fires one of them on the spot and kicks him off the boat, everyone is talking about what happened.

Ignorance is simply not an excuse in this situation. This company, and its executives and investors were making a lot of money off of these $250K tickets and I want to know the extent of their knowledge about the safety of the sub. I just don't buy that Stockton and PH were the only ones responsible, and now that they are gone, we should all just move forward.
 
ch_13 said:
I almost wonder if the opposite is true. The fact that the victims are so rich, is it even worthwhile to pursue a lawsuit? It will take many years of painful legal wrangling and maybe they'll get $5 or $10 million in a wrongful death suit. It would be the equivalent of a regular person getting a settlement of $1,000.

If they do sue, it will probably be only to get justice for their loved ones instead of any monetary gain. But the principal wrongdoers, Rush and Nargeolet, are dead, and OceanGate is unlikely to have much in the way of assets. Perhaps they can pierce the corporate veil and go after the BoD and Wendy Rush, but will suing the ancillaries really make the families feel like justice was served?
Click to expand...

I don’t know how rich they really are. Everyone assumed Stockton Rush was rich. Now, it seems, not that rich at all.

There is one reported “billionaire” on board. We might find out that Covid hit his stocks, who knows?

In short, they had the money to spend on that trip, but it was their dream trip.

I also don’t see why Dawood’s charitable foundations and the people they help should suffer<modsnip> Just to remind, one of Dawood’s charities has King Charles III involved.
 
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I'd love to see the dive records for the Titan. That right there would tell us, who besides SR and PH thought it was safe and would perhaps indicate who didn't! Did Wendy Rush ever pilot the sub? If it was super easy, with the game controller, did he let the $15/hour interns pilot the sub?

In 2018, Stockton asked the OceanGate Finance Director to b/c the head pilot for the sub! She said she didn't trust him and found a new job immediately! Of all the employees there, SR couldn't find someone besides the finance gal who was interested in piloting the sub? I suspect others weren't interested in taking on the job either.

Maybe SR didn't want to be the head pilot either, but couldn't find a single other person to take on the job......and the lure of $250K/ticket was too enticing for him to pass on.

www.hindustantimes.com

‘It freaked me out’: OceanGate's ex-finance director with accounting background was asked to become chief pilot

The former director of finance and administration for OceanGate quit her job as soon as she found a new role at a different company
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com

Soon after the firing of David, Stockton asked the finance director to fill in for the pilot. "It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting," she told the New Yorker, adding that she "did not trust" Rush. She quit her job as soon as she found a new role at a different company.
 
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Actually, I guess this answers part of my earlier question.

Scott Griffith was the head sub pilot for many years to present. Below he says he took clients to the Titanic 5 times!


  • Director Of Logistics and Quality AssuranceDirector Of Logistics and Quality Assurance
    Mar 2020 - Present · 3 yrs 5 mosMar 2020 - Present · 3 yrs 5 mosEverettEverett
      • Responsible for planning and execution of all expeditions. Experienced interfacing with governing bodies, partners, universities, institutions, scientists, subject matter experts, vendors and collaborating with engineers, technicians, and operations folks to achieve client objectives. Negotiate and manage all expeditionary vendor contracts. Create and manage expeditionary planning and risk assessment documents. Orchestrate logistics for equipment and personnel. Create and manage expedition budgets. Safely executed several subsea expeditions during COVID-19 Pandemic. As director of quality assurance I oversee our Configuration Review Board for all subsea assets: collaborating with engineers, technicians, and operators over changes or upgrades to subsea vehicle systems.Responsible for planning and execution of all expeditions. Experienced interfacing with governing bodies, partners, universities, institutions, scientists, subject matter experts, vendors and collaborating with engineers, technicians, and operations folks to achieve client objectives. Negotiate and manage all expeditionary vendor contracts. Create and manage expeditionary planning and risk assessment documents. Orchestrate logistics for equipment and personnel. Create and manage expedition budgets. Safely executed several subsea expeditions during COVID-19 Pandemic. As director of quality assurance I oversee our Configuration Review Board for all subsea assets: collaborating with engineers, technicians, and operators over changes or upgrades to subsea vehicle systems.…see more

  • Senior Submersible PilotSenior Submersible Pilot
    Feb 2015 - Present · 8 yrs 6 mosFeb 2015 - Present · 8 yrs 6 mos
      • Safely solo piloted deep submersibles on numerous expeditions. Solo pilot rated in 3 different submersibles. Participated in training additional submersible pilots from ground school to certification. In 2022, I piloted 5 dives to the Titanic wreck. Titanic dives took subject matter experts and clients nearly 2.5 miles below surface of ocean to observe and document the world's most famous shipwreck.
 
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Charlot123 said:
<modsnip - off topic>

We need some of the families to become advocates for transparency and several layers of safety. My condolences to all of them.

But first, we, as the country, have to apologize to David Lockridge. It is us bringing him in, on an O visa, to put through such wringer. I hope all levels, whoever reported Lockridge to Rush, whoever participated in the lawsuit (my state! I don’t believe Everett is related to Rush, at all, but the court that made decision, is!). All organizations that didn’t respond, too...

Also: I sometimes read that Rush’s grandiosity was due to being born in a privileged family. I don’t think so, in fact, have reasons to believe it was not this. I think it was genetics. However, world is full of mad inventors trying to cross-breed planes with blimps, and usually they end up you-know-where. The fact that Rush was allowed to experiment and sell tickets might be due to some connections. It is probably not criminal but I hope everyone involved makes a conclusion.
Click to expand...
I need to look at the lawsuit. Anyone seen the complaint? Rush's other Ocean Gate entities were all Washington companies, LLCs and corps.

I'm sorry Charlot, i wasn't following your argument on Lockridge and the visa issue. Fill me in.
 
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I just finished watching James Cameron's movie on his submersible The DeepSea Challenger, in which he successfully dove by himself to the bottom of the Marianas Trench and back. Much deeper than the Titanic. If only Rush would have listened to him...There are ways to safely explore.
 
PrairieWind said:
I'm sorry Charlot, i wasn't following your argument on Lockridge and the visa issue. Fill me in.
Click to expand...

I’m not the person you’re asking, but I think they’re referring to the New Yorker article that (going from memory) said that Rush hired Lochridge, helped him move from (Scotland?) to the US (hence the Visa comment), then fired him when Lochridge wouldn’t sign off on the safety of the OceanGate vessels. Lochridge tried to go through official channels such as OSHA and the Coast Guard with his concerns, and Rush then sued him and threatened to get him deported.

I might be off on a few details, anyone else please feel free to correct me (or check the New Yorker article).

I don’t know if Lochridge was able to, or wanted to stay in the US.
 
alsleuther said:
Watching the promotional videos and seeing the group pictures of each group involved in a single Mission, you can tell this was a tight knit group of people that spent days at a time together, living and breathing, underwater exploration and Titan talk. Their entire life while on the boat was working on the Titan.

Just think about all the mishaps we have read about from guests on the boat, passengers and outsiders - electrical failures, the platform sinking under a fishing line, the propellers installed backwards, communication breakdown, etc. Imagine what the actual employees at OceanGate saw - that times ten, I am sure! And I'm sure they knew all the details of Lochridge and his safety concerns. If you work closely in an office and especially on a boat with 30 people and Rush fires one of them on the spot and kicks him off the boat, everyone is talking about what happened.

Ignorance is simply not an excuse in this situation. This company, and its executives and investors were making a lot of money off of these $250K tickets and I want to know the extent of their knowledge about the safety of the sub. I just don't buy that Stockton and PH were the only ones responsible, and now that they are gone, we should all just move forward.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much money anyone (SR, exec, investors) actually made from OG. I thought the company (and/or SR) was likely losing money. Not sure where I came to that conclusion... maybe it's my own reasoning as OG didn't actually take that many excursions each year, the number of "mission specialists" who paid $250K was minimal (the Titan was not a large capacity vessel). jmo
 
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