Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[PrairieWind]

Yeah, I’m on the same page here. I understand the “don’t speak ill of the dead” portion of victim blaming, but when I game it out in my head I’m wondering who would be financially or possibly criminally liable (if Rush hadn’t structured things so carefully to evade laws) … if it weren’t for the fact that they’re dead. If they’d stayed on dry land for that particular “expedition”.

Unless Nargeolet was being paid by OceanGate to endorse it and/or was actually aware of the sub's structural shortcomings, I fail to see how he could be criminally or civility liable had he lived. He simply owned no legal duty to anyone regarding the submersible.

 

[ch_13]

I don't know how much the artifacts would be worth (no one does, IMO) but yes, it seems really unsubstantiated that PN was a billionaire (but it's definitely in some MSM articles).

Let's just say he was living pretty well. And the missing artifacts (5000 of them) are almost certainly sold at auction. Premier ought not to have gone bankrupt had they handled their mission properly, IMO. Something is fishy in Denmark regarding that bankruptcy and the liquidation at auction of these artifacts.

The artifacts were not given to museums. I am sorry I wasn't clear. Premier sold 200 artifacts to museums - at very high prices, IMO. And I think you're off a little on the valuation before that big auction.

Titanic artifacts valued at $200M head for auction

5,500 pieces of history linked to the 1912 tragedy will be sold as one huge collection, and interest will be high

www.cbsnews.com

This article says $200 million valuation - so if they actually sold for a 10th of that, someone, somewhere made a lot of money.

PN had been fairly quiet about his role in all of this (and btw, he was certainly careful about crafting his public image - most people think he was a grieving widower, whose wife had died of breast cancer, and who told people that dying deep below the ocean's surface was "quick" and that he didn't fear it, all leading to the view that this was a man who assessed risk in, perhaps, a different way than others might).

In fact, he had remarried. Her name is Anne Sarraz-Bournet. I believe he may have had a child with her, but for sure he was the step-dad to her children (and father to two children with his first wife).

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, Known as ‘Mr. Titanic,’ Dies at 77 (Published 2023)

One of the five people aboard the Titan submersible when it imploded, he died near the Titanic wreckage that he had visited dozens of times.

www.nytimes.com

MSM has been reporting his net worth at $1.5 billion, although I have no idea how they confirm that.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet Net Worth: How 'Mr. Titanic' Makes Money

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the passengers who died on the Titan, which went missing in June. Find out his net worth, how he made money.

www.intouchweekly.com

It is indeed hard to fathom how he got that rich by piloting a salvage submersible, writing one book, and doing consulting for a few years. He's either not that rich or something is going on. He had moved out of his NY home and taken up legal residency in Puerto Rico fairly recently. He lived in Connecticut before NY and PR, for quite a length of time.

But then, articles are reporting his age differently from piece to piece (71 vs. 77; wikipedia has him at 77 and I believe that's correct - someone mistyped it and it got repeated).

However, it's hard to believe the man lived on an ordinary salary. The impression that he's super rich is still out there. I wish we knew the truth.

IMO.

And in other news, news outlets have discovered a Princetonian Article from 1983, desribing Rush's drunk driving arrest - and his driving past a lowered railroad crossing barrier that was flashing lights.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once crashed his car into a train and was charged with drunk driving while at Princeton: report

Princeton's student newspaper, The Daily Princetonian, said that Rush was involved in a "series of arrests" when he was a student.

news.yahoo.com

It's being shared in international media as we speak.

IMO.

While the auction house may have predicted a $200 million sale price of the artifacts, it was not a realistic figure. They actually only went for $20 million.

The Basch Report: Hedge funds buy Titanic artifacts for $19.5 million | Jax Daily Record

Bankrupt Premier Exhibitions valued items at $218 million, but no other bidders emerged and judge let sale go through.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com

And, I've been looking, but I can see no indication from a mainstream media source that the 5,500 artifacts were lost or stolen. As far as I can see they are still owned by the hedge fund buyers, who manage them under the Premier Exhibitions / RMS Titanic, Inc banner and use them for traveling exhibitions.

Titanic Collection Stays Afloat Despite Bankrupt Parent Company

A collection of 5,500 artifacts from the doomed ocean liner has found a buyer, after a planned auction at Troutman Sanders' Atlanta offices was canceled for lack of qualified bidders.

www.yahoo.com

As for P.H. Nargeolet, I see that Intouchweekly links to a site called fresherslive.com which claims the $1.5 billion net worth. I've never heard of them, they don't try to substantiate it in any way and the article reads like it was written by an AI, so it's hard to give that number any credence.

 

[Charlot123]

Unless Nargeolet was being paid by OceanGate to endorse it and/or was actually aware of the sub's structural shortcomings, I fail to see how he could be criminally or civility liable had he lived. He simply owned no legal duty to anyone regarding the submersible.

Agree. Legally, it doesn't seem plausible.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't know how much the artifacts would be worth (no one does, IMO) but yes, it seems really unsubstantiated that PN was a billionaire (but it's definitely in some MSM articles).

Let's just say he was living pretty well. And the missing artifacts (5000 of them) are almost certainly sold at auction. Premier ought not to have gone bankrupt had they handled their mission properly, IMO. Something is fishy in Denmark regarding that bankruptcy and the liquidation at auction of these artifacts.

The artifacts were not given to museums. I am sorry I wasn't clear. Premier sold 200 artifacts to museums - at very high prices, IMO. And I think you're off a little on the valuation before that big auction.

Titanic artifacts valued at $200M head for auction

5,500 pieces of history linked to the 1912 tragedy will be sold as one huge collection, and interest will be high

www.cbsnews.com

This article says $200 million valuation - so if they actually sold for a 10th of that, someone, somewhere made a lot of money.

PN had been fairly quiet about his role in all of this (and btw, he was certainly careful about crafting his public image - most people think he was a grieving widower, whose wife had died of breast cancer, and who told people that dying deep below the ocean's surface was "quick" and that he didn't fear it, all leading to the view that this was a man who assessed risk in, perhaps, a different way than others might).

In fact, he had remarried. Her name is Anne Sarraz-Bournet. I believe he may have had a child with her, but for sure he was the step-dad to her children (and father to two children with his first wife).

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, Known as ‘Mr. Titanic,’ Dies at 77 (Published 2023)

One of the five people aboard the Titan submersible when it imploded, he died near the Titanic wreckage that he had visited dozens of times.

www.nytimes.com

MSM has been reporting his net worth at $1.5 billion, although I have no idea how they confirm that.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet Net Worth: How 'Mr. Titanic' Makes Money

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the passengers who died on the Titan, which went missing in June. Find out his net worth, how he made money.

www.intouchweekly.com

It is indeed hard to fathom how he got that rich by piloting a salvage submersible, writing one book, and doing consulting for a few years. He's either not that rich or something is going on. He had moved out of his NY home and taken up legal residency in Puerto Rico fairly recently. He lived in Connecticut before NY and PR, for quite a length of time.

But then, articles are reporting his age differently from piece to piece (71 vs. 77; wikipedia has him at 77 and I believe that's correct - someone mistyped it and it got repeated).

However, it's hard to believe the man lived on an ordinary salary. The impression that he's super rich is still out there. I wish we knew the truth.

IMO.

And in other news, news outlets have discovered a Princetonian Article from 1983, desribing Rush's drunk driving arrest - and his driving past a lowered railroad crossing barrier that was flashing lights.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once crashed his car into a train and was charged with drunk driving while at Princeton: report

Princeton's student newspaper, The Daily Princetonian, said that Rush was involved in a "series of arrests" when he was a student.

news.yahoo.com

It's being shared in international media as we speak.

IMO.

It is a very complicated situation. If Titanic is lying in international waters, it is no one's.

I read the the article you linked about the auction and paid attention to a locket being auctioned.

This raises tons of ethical questions. The locket is not cheap. So while the descendant of the victim might be thinking that their great-great's jewelry forever belongs to the sea, someone is selling the locket to a private collector.

At the same time, if no one bothered to organize the retrievals, all of these artifacts could be slowly corroding on the ocean floor. It is an unsafe job, as P-H's destiny demonstrates.

Looking at it from another angle, lockets often had hair kept in them. If the locket is so well-preserved, maybe the contents did not perish either? Any contents that could be retrieved definitely belong to the deceased person's family.

Lastly, who benefited from the money raised at the auction?

What would any passengers of the 1st class who were so altruistic that they valued their lives less than those of poor women and children say about the money raised? I am positive they wouldn't mind their things being sold but would probably prefer the proceedings to be given to something charitable.

Ethics is an interesting area. It trails the progress in a subtle way and usually, fires way post factum.. It is not legality-based, but judging by the results of some discussions, the conclusions made decades later might stigmatize and taint so many names. Personal, organizations, auction houses.

 

[arielilane]

"OceanGate has suspended all exploration and commercial operations." Notice is now on the top of their website.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677004226919006224

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin

 

[10ofRods]

While the auction house may have predicted a $200 million sale price of the artifacts, it was not a realistic figure. They actually only went for $20 million.

The Basch Report: Hedge funds buy Titanic artifacts for $19.5 million | Jax Daily Record

Bankrupt Premier Exhibitions valued items at $218 million, but no other bidders emerged and judge let sale go through.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com

And, I've been looking, but I can see no indication from a mainstream media source that the 5,500 artifacts were lost or stolen. As far as I can see they are still owned by the hedge fund buyers, who manage them under the Premier Exhibitions / RMS Titanic, Inc banner and use them for traveling exhibitions.

Titanic Collection Stays Afloat Despite Bankrupt Parent Company

A collection of 5,500 artifacts from the doomed ocean liner has found a buyer, after a planned auction at Troutman Sanders' Atlanta offices was canceled for lack of qualified bidders.

www.yahoo.com

As for P.H. Nargeolet, I see that Intouchweekly links to a site called fresherslive.com which claims the $1.5 billion net worth. I've never heard of them, they don't try to substantiate it in any way and the article reads like it was written by an AI, so it's hard to give that number any credence.

It is hard to give that number any credibility. I also find it hard to believe that 5200 artifacts are in traveling exhibitions (about which I find nothing current). The last time it traveled, it took 300 artifacts, so we still have 5000 artifacts unaccounted for (as is typical when archaeology gives way to private corporations taking grave goods).

However, PN is reported in MSM as being worth that much - possibly entirely due to InTouchWeekly. A quick search, though, shows that at least 10 other net worth estimators give the same amount - so I guess today's journalists just go with that. These calculators usually rely on tax returns. Perhaps he has a lot of stock in something. Still sounds unreasonably high - for a man who has only had a salaried job. He has written a book, but it isn't selling that well (came out in 2022). Yahoo News, at least, states that the figure is unconfirmed - but repeats it here:

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, a.k.a. Mr. Titanic, Leaves Behind a Legacy: Inside His Net Worth After His Death

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the five people aboard OceanGate Expeditions’ submarine, the Titan, which made headlines when it disappeared on June 18. Unfortunately, all five passengers died when the sub imploded just hours after it embarked on its voyage to view the remains of the RMS...

www.yahoo.com

So, either the claim that there were 5500 artifacts found by Premier/PN is untrue and grossly exaggerated or 5000 of the artifacts are entirely unavailable for view or for study.

I think "managing" these artifacts has meant a lot of selling of them. We know that many of them exist (or existed) because they went up for auction. I sure wouldn't want my hedge fund depending on market value of selling off Titanic artifacts one by one - but my own real question is, where are those artifacts?

Titanic expert on sub helped collect haul of artifacts from wreck

French explorer PH Nargeolet who made his life's work visiting the Titanic wreck had more than 5,000 artifacts from the doomed ship.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This article shows some of the items from the museum/traveling exhibit. I am not the only person concerned about the remaining 5000 objects. Some people are calling it "pillaging" and it's a bit shocking it was ever allowed to transpire in this way. My hinky meter is going off. Perhaps I'm still stunned by the scheme set up by Stockton Rush and endorsed (via being a guide/expert) by PN. He says his work is about "education" but I'm not seeing the connection. I'd love to be able to read articles on what they found and the state of preservation of the objects.

Breaking news! I just located about 200 more of those 5500 objects:

About 250 are at the Luxor Hotel in Vegas, in a permanent exhibit:

Titanic Exhibit & Museum At The Luxor, Las Vegas In 2024

The Titanic Artifact Exhibition at the Luxor is one of the largest in the world. Plan your visit to this hauntingly historical tribute to the Titanic Museum Las Vegas.

vegasfoodandfun.com

There are apparently a few more of these small museums. They charge quite a bit for entry. Basic adult ticket is $32. That doesn't scream "it's for education" to me. But I do wonder under what arrangement the Luxor Hotel got those items (they've set aside 25,000 square feet for the Titanic Exhibition - now occupying areas where they used to have reproductions of Egyptian artifacts, as far as I can tell. I can find no record of the financial arrangements by which this exhibit came to Vegas. I assume that since a huge part of one floor of the Luxor is devoted to it, they invested quite a bit.

IMO.

 

[fred&edna]

I think Nargeolet worked (at some point) with a museum in Paris regarding some preservation of Titanic artifacts... I'll have to find a link. This is definitely educational, imo.

But, in the mean time there's this happening in Paris:

Titanic: passengers revealed in XXL exhibition at Paris Expo Porte de Versailles - Invitations


The exhibition may seem familiar to you: in 2013, 10 years ago, the same program was already presented at Porte de Versailles. In an immersive, educational tour featuring over 260 objects, you'll discover the stories of over 200 passengers, relics and authentic objects recovered after the shipwreck, as well as a life-size replica of the liner's grand staircase.

 

[ch_13]

Snipping a couple of items for focus.

It is hard to give that number any credibility. I also find it hard to believe that 5200 artifacts are in traveling exhibitions (about which I find nothing current). The last time it traveled, it took 300 artifacts, so we still have 5000 artifacts unaccounted for (as is typical when archaeology gives way to private corporations taking grave goods).

Even regular museums only exhibit a small portion of their collection. It doesn't surprise me that only 10% or 15% is on display at any given time.

Especially when you consider that not every artifact would be that interesting. Many are likely dupes...a couple of teacups from the Titanic may be worth seeing, but no exhibit would want 50 of them. And other artifacts are probably just random bits and bobs - cloth scraps, wood fragments, iron pieces, etc.

The thing is that the Titanic wreck is managed by the NOAA and overseen by a Federal court. There's a covenant in place to safeguard the wreck and any recovered artifacts: Covenants and Conditions. The covenant has very specific requirements on how the artifacts must be treated, who can handle them, where they can be exhibited, conditions in which they must be stored, etc. RMS Titanic, Inc. has to make regular reports to the court on its management of the artifacts and the NOAA can conduct inspections at any time. So the idea that they could have just gone missing without anyone being the wiser just doesn't seem credible.

However, PN is reported in MSM as being worth that much - possibly entirely due to InTouchWeekly. A quick search, though, shows that at least 10 other net worth estimators give the same amount - so I guess today's journalists just go with that. These calculators usually rely on tax returns. Perhaps he has a lot of stock in something. Still sounds unreasonably high - for a man who has only had a salaried job. He has written a book, but it isn't selling that well (came out in 2022). Yahoo News, at least, states that the figure is unconfirmed - but repeats it here:

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, a.k.a. Mr. Titanic, Leaves Behind a Legacy: Inside His Net Worth After His Death

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the five people aboard OceanGate Expeditions’ submarine, the Titan, which made headlines when it disappeared on June 18. Unfortunately, all five passengers died when the sub imploded just hours after it embarked on its voyage to view the remains of the RMS...

www.yahoo.com

Tax returns are not public in the U.S. and I doubt they are in France either. If your wealth comes from a public company your net worth can be calculated from the stock you own, for example Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway or Bezos of Amazon. If Nargeolet did own substantial stock that would also be public info and would almost certainly have been reported somewhere.

Outside of public investments, there's no way to know most people's net worths. For the most part, the estimator websites are just making these numbers up out of whole cloth and I'm positive that's what they're doing in PHN's case.

To put things in perspective, if you earned $1 per second and never spent any of it, it would take about 12 days to become a millionaire. It would take almost 32 years to become a billionaire. I think we hear so much about tech billionaires, crypto billionaires, hedge fund billionaires that it's easy to lose sight of just how much money that is. The only way to become a billionaire (outside of inheriting it) is to have an investment that increases in value exponentially. Selling Titanic relics just would never get you anywhere close.

 

[fred&edna]

Maybe it was Cherbourg I was thinking about?

Home - La Cité de la Mer

www.citedelamer.com

Very interesting:

Paul-Henri Nargeolet - La Cité de la Mer

www.citedelamer.com

 

[10ofRods]

All of these exhibits are expensive to visit (compared to public museum offerings).

In the United States and Canada, all artifacts have to go to a university and be overseen by an educational institution. While exhibitions may still cost money, the money charged does not exceed the cost of maintaining the exhibit space (and no artifacts are ever sold).

There were dozens of pieces of fine jewelry (some say over 100) recovered. I wonder where they are.

The Cherbourg Museum's publicity says it is one of two Titanic Museums. It charges just a little bit less than the Vegas one.

By educational, I meant "open to actual students of the subject and available for research." Obviously, even a wax museum is educational, especially for kids and teens. But that's not what I think is appropriate or good for the Titanic artifacts. And I do not believe Premier's statement that they "contacted the families of the survivors." A few, maybe, but certainly not all. I'm disappointed in both the US and the UK for allowing this (with their unusual agreement about this grave site).

I guess the Titanic will be even more famous now. The Museum in Cherbourg looks amazing, with all those video displays and interactive things (the French really do this well - although I have no idea how many different individuals from many nations might have been involved). They did the interactive video thing for the Conciergerie and I was skeptical, but it was actually exceptionally well done. It's a bit sad to think that people aren't as interested in maritime artifacts (or the early 20th century) as they are in the tragic part of the story.

PN wasn't the only person authorized to dive and study artifacts from the Titanic. In May of this year, a group from the Channel Islands (Guernsey - same group, I believe, that flew in aid for the search for the Titan) found the rumoured Megalodon necklace:

'Megalodon-tooth' necklace found in Titanic debris

A gold necklace 'made with a megalodon tooth' has been found among the debris field surrounding the wreck of the RMS Titanic

divemagazine.com

They did not take it, however. That requires permission from either UK or US, although the "debris field" area is apparently open for taking artifacts. The Magellan people (Guernsey) are contacting the descendants of the owner of the necklace and looks like they'll apply to recover - and return it - if possible.

IMO.

 

[Tricia]

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[fred&edna]

In the United States and Canada, all artifacts have to go to a university and be overseen by an educational institution. While exhibitions may still cost money, the money charged does not exceed the cost of maintaining the exhibit space (and no artifacts are ever sold).

RSBM

All artifacts? All Titanic artifacts? Historical artifacts? I wasn't aware of this... educate me, please. I need to learn more.

 

[musicaljoke]

RSBM

All artifacts? All Titanic artifacts? Historical artifacts? I wasn't aware of this... educate me, please. I need to learn more.

The Heritage Conservation Act explicitly confirms the Province’s ownership of all archaeological, palaeontological and burial site heritage objects... Any such objects determined to be of aboriginal origin are specifically ‘held in trust’ on behalf of First Nations people and their communities.

Heritage Conservation Act - Tourism, Heritage and Culture

Heritage Conservation Act - Tourism, Heritage and Culture - New Brunswick

www2.gnb.ca

 

[BeachSky]

It is hard to give that number any credibility. I also find it hard to believe that 5200 artifacts are in traveling exhibitions (about which I find nothing current). The last time it traveled, it took 300 artifacts, so we still have 5000 artifacts unaccounted for (as is typical when archaeology gives way to private corporations taking grave goods).

However, PN is reported in MSM as being worth that much - possibly entirely due to InTouchWeekly. A quick search, though, shows that at least 10 other net worth estimators give the same amount - so I guess today's journalists just go with that. These calculators usually rely on tax returns. Perhaps he has a lot of stock in something. Still sounds unreasonably high - for a man who has only had a salaried job. He has written a book, but it isn't selling that well (came out in 2022). Yahoo News, at least, states that the figure is unconfirmed - but repeats it here:

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, a.k.a. Mr. Titanic, Leaves Behind a Legacy: Inside His Net Worth After His Death

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the five people aboard OceanGate Expeditions’ submarine, the Titan, which made headlines when it disappeared on June 18. Unfortunately, all five passengers died when the sub imploded just hours after it embarked on its voyage to view the remains of the RMS...

www.yahoo.com

So, either the claim that there were 5500 artifacts found by Premier/PN is untrue and grossly exaggerated or 5000 of the artifacts are entirely unavailable for view or for study.

I think "managing" these artifacts has meant a lot of selling of them. We know that many of them exist (or existed) because they went up for auction. I sure wouldn't want my hedge fund depending on market value of selling off Titanic artifacts one by one - but my own real question is, where are those artifacts?

Titanic expert on sub helped collect haul of artifacts from wreck

French explorer PH Nargeolet who made his life's work visiting the Titanic wreck had more than 5,000 artifacts from the doomed ship.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This article shows some of the items from the museum/traveling exhibit. I am not the only person concerned about the remaining 5000 objects. Some people are calling it "pillaging" and it's a bit shocking it was ever allowed to transpire in this way. My hinky meter is going off. Perhaps I'm still stunned by the scheme set up by Stockton Rush and endorsed (via being a guide/expert) by PN. He says his work is about "education" but I'm not seeing the connection. I'd love to be able to read articles on what they found and the state of preservation of the objects.

Breaking news! I just located about 200 more of those 5500 objects:

About 250 are at the Luxor Hotel in Vegas, in a permanent exhibit:

Titanic Exhibit & Museum At The Luxor, Las Vegas In 2024

The Titanic Artifact Exhibition at the Luxor is one of the largest in the world. Plan your visit to this hauntingly historical tribute to the Titanic Museum Las Vegas.

vegasfoodandfun.com

There are apparently a few more of these small museums. They charge quite a bit for entry. Basic adult ticket is $32. That doesn't scream "it's for education" to me. But I do wonder under what arrangement the Luxor Hotel got those items (they've set aside 25,000 square feet for the Titanic Exhibition - now occupying areas where they used to have reproductions of Egyptian artifacts, as far as I can tell. I can find no record of the financial arrangements by which this exhibit came to Vegas. I assume that since a huge part of one floor of the Luxor is devoted to it, they invested quite a bit.

IMO.

I saw it in Fort Worth.
When I got invited I was not sure I wanted to go. We were there couple of hours. You board the ship, you are on the journey. The sounds, the air , even movement. One thing I remember was a stack of the Titantic dish plates in a see thru display case along with the photo of them as found at the bottom of the ocean. A stack, after sinking- not broken.
I hope the things I saw were true artifacts.
IMO it was respectfull & insightful.

Titanic Exhibit at Fort Worth Museum of Science & History~ Fort Worth, TX - R We There Yet Mom?

Spread the love I have been obsessed with all things [Continue Reading]

rwethereyetmom.com

 

[fred&edna]

The Heritage Conservation Act explicitly confirms the Province’s ownership of all archaeological, palaeontological and burial site heritage objects... Any such objects determined to be of aboriginal origin are specifically ‘held in trust’ on behalf of First Nations people and their communities.

Heritage Conservation Act - Tourism, Heritage and Culture

Heritage Conservation Act - Tourism, Heritage and Culture - New Brunswick

www2.gnb.ca

Thank you! It's always good to learn! Is there a US version??

 

[ilovewings]

All the warnings OceanGate boss ignored before Titan sub implosion

Stockton Rush, who bragged about 'breaking rules' and idolised maverick Star Trek protagonist Captain Kirk, died alongside four others when his sub imploded on a trip to the Titanic wreck.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Alot of information in this article we already know about: the Titan was an accident waiting to happen and Stockton Rush's ego would not allow him to consider safety over what he called "innovation"

I question though, why there was no oversight agency that could have just stopped him from continuing with this submersible that everyone in the industry knew was very dangerous and potentially catastrophic. That was a huge failing in the industry itself.

There was no agency that could say you cannot continue to operate unless and until you do this this and that to comply with safety protocols. That is totally unacceptable.

They can't put a plane in the air without standards being met- how was he allowed to carry out these journeys on this submersible that everybody in the industry knew did not
come close to comporting with safety standards.

 

[helenff]

There must be a fair few exhibits around the world. I've been to the Titanic exhibition at the Maritime Museum in Liverpool a couple of times over the decades and they have a lot. A very moving exhibition.

 

[10ofRods]

Snipping a couple of items for focus.



Even regular museums only exhibit a small portion of their collection. It doesn't surprise me that only 10% or 15% is on display at any given time.

Especially when you consider that not every artifact would be that interesting. Many are likely dupes...a couple of teacups from the Titanic may be worth seeing, but no exhibit would want 50 of them. And other artifacts are probably just random bits and bobs - cloth scraps, wood fragments, iron pieces, etc.

The thing is that the Titanic wreck is managed by the NOAA and overseen by a Federal court. There's a covenant in place to safeguard the wreck and any recovered artifacts: Covenants and Conditions. The covenant has very specific requirements on how the artifacts must be treated, who can handle them, where they can be exhibited, conditions in which they must be stored, etc. RMS Titanic, Inc. has to make regular reports to the court on its management of the artifacts and the NOAA can conduct inspections at any time. So the idea that they could have just gone missing without anyone being the wiser just doesn't seem credible.



Tax returns are not public in the U.S. and I doubt they are in France either. If your wealth comes from a public company your net worth can be calculated from the stock you own, for example Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway or Bezos of Amazon. If Nargeolet did own substantial stock that would also be public info and would almost certainly have been reported somewhere.

Outside of public investments, there's no way to know most people's net worths. For the most part, the estimator websites are just making these numbers up out of whole cloth and I'm positive that's what they're doing in PHN's case.

To put things in perspective, if you earned $1 per second and never spent any of it, it would take about 12 days to become a millionaire. It would take almost 32 years to become a billionaire. I think we hear so much about tech billionaires, crypto billionaires, hedge fund billionaires that it's easy to lose sight of just how much money that is. The only way to become a billionaire (outside of inheriting it) is to have an investment that increases in value exponentially. Selling Titanic relics just would never get you anywhere close.

The debris field is *not* managed by NOAA. That's the problem. There's a large area in between the segments of the actual ship, which is where this retrieval is being done. And the management of the Titanic site is not just NOAA - it's jointly between US and UK, and the way the agreement is set up, *either* of them can say yes to an activity within the actual wreck site (and I believe a lot of the items retrieved - of which about 700 are on display somewhere per the museums I found yesterday came from the Titanic wreck site itself - who is going to be able to know?).

I've seen people's tax returns online (have no clue how they got there) and in criminal cases (one of them on WS). Now that I'm thinking about, I'm guessing that the returns I've seen were produced in court in matters unrelated to the criminal case - so yeah, no tax returns for PN and therefore he's unlikely to be a billionaire.

His real estate holdings can't possibly add up to that (and it's pretty easy to find his property records). I now agree completely with you - they made them up out of whole cloth. It's also possible that some of these fake net worth calculations are part of individual strategies for inflating their importance/economic worth. PN was not even a co-owner of Premier, if I'm understanding correctly. I can't find any evidence of the valuation of Premier, but again, I didn't try too hard.

I am guessing you are right about all those pseudo-billionaires and I will definitely revise all such MSM mentions of net worth. And yes, selling Titanic artifacts wouldn't get one close - but it did allow him to buy some pricy property here and there (he had recently sold his property in the US, I believe and moved into a much less expensive property in Puerto Rico - probably as a retirement strategy).

I don't think Ocean Gate paid their expert guides very much. Probably didn't pay them at all - just found people who wanted free trips to the Titanic and who were experts. Then again, Ocean Gate may have given a fee to all of their experts in return for using their names in advertising and PR. No idea.

IMO. Thanks for schooling me!

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you! It's always good to learn! Is there a US version??

Absolutely! It's called NAGPRA. It resulted in a famous case (Kennewick Man) whose initial DNA studies showed him closer to Asians and Polynesians, thereby exempting his bones from NAGPRA. However, it led to many lawsuits and entire tribal groups in Washington State providing DNA samples (they had not been studied before) and experts eventually concluded that at least one of the tribes requesting his bones were descendants of him (the Colville tribe).

But that didn't end it - because it was possible that several other tribes could be more similar (using contemporary DNA). Kennewick man was almost 10,000 years old. Several experts concluded that he was closer to the Metís "tribe" - who had not tried to claim him! (That's my dad's group - as established by his DNA, he didn't claim any membership in any group except American, which is how a lot of Metís feel and they don't have a tribal location, reservation or process by which to request legal action).

As a result, Kennewick Man remained in the hands of scientists until 2016, when the House and the Senate passed a special bill meant specifically to address his case. They gave him to a Coalition of Columbia Basin tribes (who had joined together legally to request this).

He has been reburied according to tribal traditions, jointly engaging in the ritual. He was buried by 5 registered tribes with participation from other smaller Native groups.

Kennewick Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fred&edna]

Absolutely! It's called NAGPRA. It resulted in a famous case (Kennewick Man) whose initial DNA studies showed him closer to Asians and Polynesians, thereby exempting his bones from NAGPRA. However, it led to many lawsuits and entire tribal groups in Washington State providing DNA samples (they had not been studied before) and experts eventually concluded that at least one of the tribes requesting his bones were descendants of him (the Colville tribe).

But that didn't end it - because it was possible that several other tribes could be more similar (using contemporary DNA). Kennewick man was almost 10,000 years old. Several experts concluded that he was closer to the Metís "tribe" - who had not tried to claim him! (That's my dad's group - as established by his DNA, he didn't claim any membership in any group except American, which is how a lot of Metís feel and they don't have a tribal location, reservation or process by which to request legal action).

As a result, Kennewick Man remained in the hands of scientists until 2016, when the House and the Senate passed a special bill meant specifically to address his case. They gave him to a Coalition of Columbia Basin tribes (who had joined together legally to request this).

He has been reburied according to tribal traditions, jointly engaging in the ritual. He was buried by 5 registered tribes with participation from other smaller Native groups.

Kennewick Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you! I wasn't reading previous posts in detail.... I now realize the discussion was regarding burial sites, related artifacts, etc. I'm up to speed now.