Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[d0lphin]

There must be a fair few exhibits around the world. I've been to the Titanic exhibition at the Maritime Museum in Liverpool a couple of times over the decades and they have a lot. A very moving exhibition.

We went there on the anniversary of the sinking, actually we hadn't realised and had just gone on the spur of the moment on our way back home from a short break. It was particularly moving as there were special events on.
I've also been to the Titanic exhibition in Orlando, when it was on International Drive which was excellent. At the beginning of the tour they gave you the name of a passenger and at the end you found out whether you would have lived or died
I've also been to the Titanic museum in Belfast.
I don't even have a particular interest in the Titanic and I've done all of these things so I can appreciate that people who are obsessed with the Titanic doing whatever they can afford to do to see it.

 

[Charlot123]

Absolutely! It's called NAGPRA. It resulted in a famous case (Kennewick Man) whose initial DNA studies showed him closer to Asians and Polynesians, thereby exempting his bones from NAGPRA. However, it led to many lawsuits and entire tribal groups in Washington State providing DNA samples (they had not been studied before) and experts eventually concluded that at least one of the tribes requesting his bones were descendants of him (the Colville tribe).

But that didn't end it - because it was possible that several other tribes could be more similar (using contemporary DNA). Kennewick man was almost 10,000 years old. Several experts concluded that he was closer to the Metís "tribe" - who had not tried to claim him! (That's my dad's group - as established by his DNA, he didn't claim any membership in any group except American, which is how a lot of Metís feel and they don't have a tribal location, reservation or process by which to request legal action).

As a result, Kennewick Man remained in the hands of scientists until 2016, when the House and the Senate passed a special bill meant specifically to address his case. They gave him to a Coalition of Columbia Basin tribes (who had joined together legally to request this).

He has been reburied according to tribal traditions, jointly engaging in the ritual. He was buried by 5 registered tribes with participation from other smaller Native groups.

Kennewick Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very interesting. I don’t remember if they have his DNA in Gedmatch. Many of my relatives have a certain percentage of Inuit DNA, but my dad’s “Asian” percentage is so unusual that I wonder if his remote ancestors were from Ainu. When I went to NZ, they had a great exhibition of Māori portraits made for free by a British artist in the beginning of the XX century. He wanted to keep the types. One looked exactly like my great-grandfather and another, like my dad in old age. I even made photos to compare. (But I am digressing. If we ever have a thread about ancient connection, happy to post these portraits.)

 

[Charlot123]

The debris field is *not* managed by NOAA. That's the problem. There's a large area in between the segments of the actual ship, which is where this retrieval is being done. And the management of the Titanic site is not just NOAA - it's jointly between US and UK, and the way the agreement is set up, *either* of them can say yes to an activity within the actual wreck site (and I believe a lot of the items retrieved - of which about 700 are on display somewhere per the museums I found yesterday came from the Titanic wreck site itself - who is going to be able to know?).

I've seen people's tax returns online (have no clue how they got there) and in criminal cases (one of them on WS). Now that I'm thinking about, I'm guessing that the returns I've seen were produced in court in matters unrelated to the criminal case - so yeah, no tax returns for PN and therefore he's unlikely to be a billionaire.

His real estate holdings can't possibly add up to that (and it's pretty easy to find his property records). I now agree completely with you - they made them up out of whole cloth. It's also possible that some of these fake net worth calculations are part of individual strategies for inflating their importance/economic worth. PN was not even a co-owner of Premier, if I'm understanding correctly. I can't find any evidence of the valuation of Premier, but again, I didn't try too hard.

I am guessing you are right about all those pseudo-billionaires and I will definitely revise all such MSM mentions of net worth. And yes, selling Titanic artifacts wouldn't get one close - but it did allow him to buy some pricy property here and there (he had recently sold his property in the US, I believe and moved into a much less expensive property in Puerto Rico - probably as a retirement strategy).

I don't think Ocean Gate paid their expert guides very much. Probably didn't pay them at all - just found people who wanted free trips to the Titanic and who were experts. Then again, Ocean Gate may have given a fee to all of their experts in return for using their names in advertising and PR. No idea.

IMO. Thanks for schooling me!

I am not sure he is a billionaire. His deceased wife was a well-known and beloved anchorwoman; sometimes wise investments help. I don’t believe he became a billionaire from Titanic exploits, though. Nor am I sure that P-H was solely money-driven, either. JMO - he simply couldn’t walk away from his life-long high-adrenaline existence into regular life. I feel that he didn’t want to die in his bed. But whatever his role was, morally he can’t share the blame with SR. Personally, I feel that SR was less narcissistic and more in the tenets of an uncaught mental illness, but it is just my suspicion. Can one avoid his predicament if he is born a certain way? Too sad that other people died with them.

 

[Arkay]

There must be a fair few exhibits around the world. I've been to the Titanic exhibition at the Maritime Museum in Liverpool a couple of times over the decades and they have a lot. A very moving exhibition.

Sorry to be repetitive, as I know I’ve mentioned this several times already!

The Maritime Museum in Halifax, Nova Scotia has artifacts from the Titanic. IMO it’s the most authentic museum, because that is where debris from Titanic washed up. Also, as the natural landing point for debris, the Canadian authorities were also able to collect the flotsam that floated on the surface where Titanic sank. Not far from where the submersible went down.

The collection there is heartbreaking. It does not have the multitude of artifacts that were later collected by treasure hunters after Titanic was located. This is not a for-profit venture, just the locale that was enmeshed with Titanic. My niece was at the age where she was very into the movie, so we went to that museum.

As a maritime museum, it has many other shipwreck and marine exhibits, but the Titanic exhibit is the main draw. To me the deck chairs and baby shoes were the most wrenching.

 

[HMSHood]

Carbon fiber submarine test with a scale model.

 

[HMSHood]

Double post.

 

[10ofRods]

RSBM

All artifacts? All Titanic artifacts? Historical artifacts? I wasn't aware of this... educate me, please. I need to learn more.

It isn't exactly clear. You can't know if something is a protected artifact unless you use scholarly methods to decide it.

So, technically, if anything can be construed as potentially pre-Columbian OR part of a grave, it's an artifact. Various laws apply. If you found a body in your back yard, you'd probably call the police. The local Coroner and Medical Examiner wouldn't be able to say its age. It would need further study. This happens more than I would have thought. If you found a stone tool or implement, same thing.

If it turned out to be a more modern burial (or a homicide) then the objects would not be classified as artifacts.

A friend of mine (who is an archaeologist) excavated her own grandmother's grave (alongside the Oregon Trail). She filed the required paperwork herself and had no problems. She did not rebury her grandmother for quite a long time (she asked a bio anthropologist to help her research the woman's actual cause of death, etc, etc). But she was legally in possession of those bones - you can't just find human bones (or pre-Columbian artifacts and keep them).

People do keep bones and artifacts all the time. If found on private land, they are technically under the ownership of the private land owner, except for bones. I suppose that the debris field of the Titanic falls under this category, in some sense (who owns the bottom of the ocean? all of us?

The Titanic site itself obviously is protected. Nothing can be taken (except from the debris field) by anyone except through approval by either US or UK authorities.

Supposedly, the 5500 artifacts from the Titanic came from the debris field. I can't remember when the official protection of the site began. It's possible that PN was there before that protection was put in place - indeed, I would think that this scavenging of the Titanic site by private companies should be a reason for increased protection). It gained protection in 2001. Only the half-mile debris field in between the two parts of the Titanic remained unprotected and supposedly, that's where all the stuff came from. As you can tell, I am skeptical but whatever.

Some of this "debris" is very valuable (precious jewels, for example).

Unfortunately, no way of knowing whether private submarines and submersibles follow the law properly, though.

 

[Charlot123]

It isn't exactly clear. You can't know if something is a protected artifact unless you use scholarly methods to decide it.

So, technically, if anything can be construed as potentially pre-Columbian OR part of a grave, it's an artifact. Various laws apply. If you found a body in your back yard, you'd probably call the police. The local Coroner and Medical Examiner wouldn't be able to say its age. It would need further study. This happens more than I would have thought. If you found a stone tool or implement, same thing.

If it turned out to be a more modern burial (or a homicide) then the objects would not be classified as artifacts.

A friend of mine (who is an archaeologist) excavated her own grandmother's grave (alongside the Oregon Trail). She filed the required paperwork herself and had no problems. She did not rebury her grandmother for quite a long time (she asked a bio anthropologist to help her research the woman's actual cause of death, etc, etc). But she was legally in possession of those bones - you can't just find human bones (or pre-Columbian artifacts and keep them).

People do keep bones and artifacts all the time. If found on private land, they are technically under the ownership of the private land owner, except for bones. I suppose that the debris field of the Titanic falls under this category, in some sense (who owns the bottom of the ocean? all of us?

The Titanic site itself obviously is protected. Nothing can be taken (except from the debris field) by anyone except through approval by either US or UK authorities.

Supposedly, the 5500 artifacts from the Titanic came from the debris field. I can't remember when the official protection of the site began. It's possible that PN was there before that protection was put in place - indeed, I would think that this scavenging of the Titanic site by private companies should be a reason for increased protection). It gained protection in 2001. Only the half-mile debris field in between the two parts of the Titanic remained unprotected and supposedly, that's where all the stuff came from. As you can tell, I am skeptical but whatever.

Some of this "debris" is very valuable (precious jewels, for example).

Unfortunately, no way of knowing whether private submarines and submersibles follow the law properly, though.

I think a lot of questions have to be answered by the auction houses who auctioned the Titanic artifacts. Anyone can bring in a rusty piece of metal and say it is from Titanic. But jewelry has a provenance. These were likely rich passengers. Who could afford photos showing their ancestors wearing this jewelty; perhaps, these photos still are in possession of their families. This is where the question lies. The auction houses had to prove the provenance of the expensive objects they auction. After this, question emerges: did they inform the heirs? (All heirs, not one?)

I think the rules are the same as for the hoardes. You have to declare that you found a hoarde, or a treasure, and get a certain percent for reimbursement. But you can't just take it.

 

[Charlot123]

Titanic artifacts valued at $200M head for auction

5,500 pieces of history linked to the 1912 tragedy will be sold as one huge collection, and interest will be high

www.cbsnews.com

My question is, who organized the auction? Usually one hires auction houses to do it. Also, Daoping Bao mentioned in the article, perhaps, should answer some questions.

 

[Charlot123]

Here: the auction of 2012.
Bracelet engraved "Amy". Only two passengers with such a name.
Were attempts made to look for their relatives?

10 Most Expensive Titanic Memorabilia Sold at Auction

One of the greatest tragedies to occur at sea happened on April 15th in 1912: the sinking of esteemed luxury passenger liner the RMS Titanic. The Titanic was one of the most magnificent ships of its t

www.therichest.com

ETA: mentioned here is the name of one auction house, Lion Heart Autographs

A Look at the Titanic Artifacts Going to Auction This Week

The items come from the so-called “Money Boat,” whose passengers were accused of bribing crew members not to save others.

www.nationalgeographic.com

This is what they sell. Ostensibly these items were saved by the passengers. But is what are the rules if someone merely brings an item scavenged from the ocean floor?

Titanic's Last Lunch Menu Sold for $88,000 At Auction

It was rescued by a first-class passenger

time.com

 

[fred&edna]

Titanic & Maritime Memorabilia - Buy & Sell at Auction | Henry Aldridge Auctioneers

World leaders in the valuation & sale of Titanic Liner memorabilia. We hold the record for the most valuable item of Titanic memorabilia sold at auction.

www.henryaldridge.com

Henry Aldridge & Son Ltd are the World's leaders in the sale of Titanic Liner memorabilia. Described by Stanley Lehrer the owner of the worlds largest collection Titanic Memorabilia as the "Leading source of high end ocean liner collectibles in the world". We hold the world record for the most valuable item of Titanic memorabilia sold at auction, £1.1 million for the Wallace Hartley Violin, the most valuable item of paperwork relating to the Titanic, a 32ft long Titanic enquiry plan at £220,000 and the most valuable collection of memorabilia relating to a Titanic crewman at over £350,000. Our expertise has been utilised by leading media outlets globally and the worlds largest museums. We hold two dedicated auctions a year with bound printed catalogues that collectors value as much for research as for the auctions themselves. We also have extensive experience handling material from other liners such as RMS Olympic, RMS Britannic, RMS Lusitania, RMS Queen Mary, RMS Empress of Ireland and the White Star Line and Cunard and are happy to handle single items to major collections either in the UK or globally.

 

[fred&edna]

The is report is dated November 2022

Titanic memorabilia to be auctioned

A postal clerk's pocket watch, first-class menu and first-class passenger list are listed for sale.

www.bbc.com

Brandy flask

First-Class Titanic Passenger, Helen Churchill Candee, traveled alone on the Titanic but quickly made friends. One of them, Edward Kent, escorted her to the lifeboats after Titanic hit the iceberg.
She handed him a treasured heirloom and a unique silver brandy flask, saying, "You stand a better chance of living than I do." In fact, she survived and he did not. The personal mementos she entrusted to him did.
They were found in his jacket pocket when his body was pulled from the sea. They remained in the Candee family until her granddaughter put the brandy flask up for auction at the Henry Aldridge & Son Auction House in England.

Rare Titanic artifacts will be on display in Pigeon Forge until April 10

A pendant and a silver brandy flask belonged to a woman who survived the sinking of the ocean liner will be on display.

www.wbir.com

 

[LinasK]

Titan sub only reached the depth of the Titanic on 13 out of 90 dives, says the waiver OceanGate passengers had to sign

OceanGate indicated in the liability waiver how many times the submersible dived the 3,800 meters below the Atlantic where the Titanic lies.

www.businessinsider.in

 

[fred&edna]

Aldridge & Sons auctioned this (I posted previously)

Wooden cross made from Titanic oak to be auctioned

The piece was made by Samuel Smith who took part in the body-recovery mission in April 1912.

www.bbc.com

 

[Charlot123]

Bankrupt Titanic exhibitor sets biggest sale of ship relics

The story of the doomed luxury liner RMS Titanic proved so alluring that divers were searching for the wreck seven decades after it sank to the bottom of the Atlantic

www.fredericknewspost.com

In the absence of laws regulating such sales, lots of items that has ownership probably ended in the hands of private collectors.

Example: captain Edward Smith's personal items found on Titanic yield premium prices. Captain Smith's direct line is gone. But he had a half-brother on mom's side, Captain Hancock, who left descendants. How come this is not considered before they auction Capt. Smith's personal things?

The future of OceanGate will probably be decided in courts.

But both personal tragedy of the passengers and many questions raised about the provenance of Titanic artifacts call for better laws regulating these issues.

 

[Charlot123]

I was the one who called Nargeolet and Rush 'wrongdoers', but it was in the context of a hypothetical civil trial against them had they lived.

Nargeolet told the passengers that the sub was safe, even though he himself was warned otherwise by the DSV community. The very presence of 'Mr. Titanic' (as he was called) on the dives reassured the passengers that the missions were being done in a professional manner.

He may not have been criminally culpable, but I think his words and actions will be a focus of any civil lawsuit.

There is legality and ethics. I once followed a long discussion on the Internet. Namely, how ethical was it to use the results of medical studies performed very unethically and long ago, for significant advancement of modern medicine? I was surprised how many participants deemed it unethical.

Same is here, I think. Legally, P-H is neither involved nor culpable. Ethics is another thing. But unless we want ethics to step in in all cases and wipe off everything good people had made in their lives, we need clear-cut laws.

 

[BeachSky]

According to this submarine expert
there was an electrical failure…

The 48 seconds ‘of horror’ aboard the Titan

According to a submarine expert, the Titan likely had an electrical failure and lost stability, which caused it to drop to the bottom of the ocean.

en.as.com

“The starting point is that the submarine is descending without any incident and in a horizontal plane until it reaches… about 1,700 meters (5,500 feet). At that point there is an electrical failure. It is left without an engine and without propulsion. That’s when it lost communication with the Polar Price,” Martín told Nius.
“The Titan changes position and falls like an arrow vertically, because the 400 kilos (880 pounds) of passengers that were at the porthole unbalance the submarine. Everyone rushes and crowds on top of each other. Imagine the horror, the fear and the agony. It had to be like a horror movie,” continues the expert, who believes that everything happened between 48 and 71 seconds of free fall.

During that time, according to Martin, the passengers were aware of the gravity of the situation.

“In that period of time they are realizing everything. And what’s more, in complete darkness. It’s difficult to get an idea of what they experienced in those moments. After those 48 seconds, or one minute, the implosion and instantaneous sudden death occur,” says the expert.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

According to this submarine expert
there was an electrical failure…

The 48 seconds ‘of horror’ aboard the Titan

According to a submarine expert, the Titan likely had an electrical failure and lost stability, which caused it to drop to the bottom of the ocean.

en.as.com

“The starting point is that the submarine is descending without any incident and in a horizontal plane until it reaches… about 1,700 meters (5,500 feet). At that point there is an electrical failure. It is left without an engine and without propulsion. That’s when it lost communication with the Polar Price,” Martín told Nius.
“The Titan changes position and falls like an arrow vertically, because the 400 kilos (880 pounds) of passengers that were at the porthole unbalance the submarine. Everyone rushes and crowds on top of each other. Imagine the horror, the fear and the agony. It had to be like a horror movie,” continues the expert, who believes that everything happened between 48 and 71 seconds of free fall.

During that time, according to Martin, the passengers were aware of the gravity of the situation.

“In that period of time they are realizing everything. And what’s more, in complete darkness. It’s difficult to get an idea of what they experienced in those moments. After those 48 seconds, or one minute, the implosion and instantaneous sudden death occur,” says the expert.

Interesting. But I think I'll wait for the investigations to conclude.

 

[MsMarple]

Interesting. But I think I'll wait for the investigations to conclude.

Yeah there are a number of theories floating around about what happened but right now no one yet knows what actually happened, including Mr. Martin. James Cameron has a different theory as do Navy experts.

It’s difficult waiting for reports- we haven’t received a preliminary report yet and in the meantime even the uninvolved experts don’t agree.

It’s sad that so many things could have gone wrong to destroy the Titan that there are multiple theories, all based on the woefully inadequate construction of the submersible. Electrical, the non hard wired controller, the fatigued hull, the non certified view port; its more like what didn’t go wrong IMO.

 

[LadyL]

According to this submarine expert
there was an electrical failure…

The 48 seconds ‘of horror’ aboard the Titan

According to a submarine expert, the Titan likely had an electrical failure and lost stability, which caused it to drop to the bottom of the ocean.

en.as.com

“The starting point is that the submarine is descending without any incident and in a horizontal plane until it reaches… about 1,700 meters (5,500 feet). At that point there is an electrical failure. It is left without an engine and without propulsion. That’s when it lost communication with the Polar Price,” Martín told Nius.
“The Titan changes position and falls like an arrow vertically, because the 400 kilos (880 pounds) of passengers that were at the porthole unbalance the submarine. Everyone rushes and crowds on top of each other. Imagine the horror, the fear and the agony. It had to be like a horror movie,” continues the expert, who believes that everything happened between 48 and 71 seconds of free fall.

During that time, according to Martin, the passengers were aware of the gravity of the situation.

“In that period of time they are realizing everything. And what’s more, in complete darkness. It’s difficult to get an idea of what they experienced in those moments. After those 48 seconds, or one minute, the implosion and instantaneous sudden death occur,” says the expert.

I really hope not.