Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023

[citizen_sleuth]

RSBM

I don't think that classifying passengers as mission specialists/crew members necessarily has anything to do with safety standards, it is likely a way to communicate that passengers are engaged in the mission at some level, however basic. The submersible pilot, Paul-Henry Nargeoles, who was piloting the mission would have been in charge and very attuned to safety issues, IMO. He is a former diver for the French navy.

I did some digging into the regulations governing submersibles and from what I was able to find, there are multiple different classifications of submersibles specified by the Coast Guard, each with varying levels of regulation.

The Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 (59 FR 792) introduced more stringent regulations of passenger vessels. Under the Act, a passenger is defined as follows (BBM):

(A) means an individual carried on the vessel except
(i) the owner or an individual representative of the owner or, in the case of a vessel under charter, an individual charterer or individual representative of the charterer;
(ii) the master; or
(iii) a member of the crew engaged in the business of the vessel who has not contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services

In this case, I think OceanGate is using subsection (iii) as a 'loophole' to allow them to classify Titan as an Uninspected Passenger Vessel (UPV) rather than a Small Passenger Vessel (SPV). Because the "mission specialists" take turns operating the equipment on board Titan, they are "engaged in the business of the vessel" and thus satisfy the first part of the passenger exemption under subsection (iii).

The second half of subsection (iii) specifies that to be considered a crew member, the person must not have "contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services." Since the "mission specialists" paid for the opportunity to go on the expedition, at first glance it appears they would not qualify for the crew member exception. However, the Act also amended the definition of "consideration" to allow for individuals to contribute to the operating costs of the vessel without being considered passengers:

(5a) ‘consideration’ means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

I suspect that OceanGate considers the $250,000 price tag to be a "mission specialist" as a "voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage" rather than a payment (which would make them passengers for hire and thus subject to SPV regulations), so given the fact that the "mission specialists" perform tasks while on board and are not "paying," they can operate Titan as a UPV and thus not subject to federal regulation. MOO.

 

[JerseyGirl]

#HeyJB will stay live until 5pm eastern:

#BREAKING: Missing Titanic Submersible Update in Coast Guard Press Conference | #HeyJB Live

Rescuers in a remote area of the Atlantic Ocean raced against time early Tuesday to find a missing submersible carrying five people on a mission to document ...

www.youtube.com

 

[Emi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671220132658511875

 

[heartandsoul]

I think that is a good question.
I was just thinking that it would be helpful if they did.

Thank you. I usually follow aviation incidents so it was on my mind!

Upthread there was a link to a first-person account reporting that on a dive during the previous year, the mother ship and the sub lost communication for FIVE HOURS. (The person was not in the sub during the incident; they were aboard the mother ship.)

After that terrifying incident, apparently OceanGate still didn't install a redundant communication system or a transponder; I'd speculate (MOO!) that they wouldn't bother with a black box.

Were they able to monitor the subs operating systems in real time? Had they lost communication again, the same as the previous five-hour communication gap when they "lost" the sub in the past?

It’s absolutely shocking to me the details coming out about previous issues.

 

[iamshadow21]

I did some digging into the regulations governing submersibles and from what I was able to find, there are multiple different classifications of submersibles specified by the Coast Guard, each with varying levels of regulation.

The Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 (59 FR 792) introduced more stringent regulations of passenger vessels. Under the Act, a passenger is defined as follows (BBM):

(A) means an individual carried on the vessel except
(i) the owner or an individual representative of the owner or, in the case of a vessel under charter, an individual charterer or individual representative of the charterer;
(ii) the master; or
(iii) a member of the crew engaged in the business of the vessel who has not contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services

In this case, I think OceanGate is using subsection (iii) as a 'loophole' to allow them to classify Titan as an Uninspected Passenger Vessel (UPV) rather than a Small Passenger Vessel (SPV). Because the "mission specialists" take turns operating the equipment on board Titan, they are "engaged in the business of the vessel" and thus satisfy the first part of the passenger exemption under subsection (iii).

The second half of subsection (iii) specifies that to be considered a crew member, the person must not have "contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services." Since the "mission specialists" paid for the opportunity to go on the expedition, at first glance it appears they would not qualify for the crew member exception. However, the Act also amended the definition of "consideration" to allow for individuals to contribute to the operating costs of the vessel without being considered passengers:

(5a) ‘consideration’ means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

I suspect that OceanGate considers the $250,000 price tag to be a "mission specialist" as a "voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage" rather than a payment (which would make them passengers for hire and thus subject to SPV regulations), so given the fact that the "mission specialists" perform tasks while on board and are not "paying," they can operate Titan as a UPV and thus not subject to federal regulation. MOO.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense I've been expecting would be behind their designation of paying passengers as 'mission specialists' - to circumvent safety laws. Allegedly, in my opinion only, etc.

MOO

 

[DFWNF]

I pray they are ok.

 

[Puzzles8]

Maybe a dumb and irrelevant (if it’s imploded) question, but do subs like Titan have a black box?

Based on the fact they were using a game controller to pilot the submersible, I would not hold my breath that there was a black box onboard.
Not a dumb question!

JMO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

According to a Navy spokesperson, the maritime force is deploying the Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System -- along with experts in the field -- to hopefully find OceanGate Expeditions' lost Titan vessel and strategize how to bring it to the surface.

The Navy's machinery is a lift system that's designed to provide "reliable deep ocean lifting capacity for the recovery of large, bulky, and heavy undersea objects such as aircraft or small vessels."

The Navy adds the experts and system should arrive in the area as soon as Tuesday night.

The sub's been running out of emergency oxygen, with about 40 hours left as of Tuesday afternoon. Former Coast Guard Captain Andrew Norris joined us on "TMZ Live" Tuesday, telling us why those onboard won't just need one miracle to get home safely ... they'll need a boatload of them.

U.S. Navy Sends Deep Ocean Lifting System in Hopes of Retrieving Titanic Submarine

The U.S. Navy is getting ahead of the game in the search for the Titanic sub that's gone missing ... sending a deep ocean lifting system in the hopes the vessel is found and can be retrieved.

www.tmz.com

 

[Mama-dukes]

If there was any kind of leak, any flaw, as far as I know, at the depths they were going to, the entire thing would implode - collapse in on itself like an empty drink can. It would be very quick.

The pressure outside the vessel is far far greater than that on the inside. So any weak point or rupture, and the physics are, that disparity wants to equalise. And the higher pressure outside is vastly stronger than the lower pressure inside.

I am not a scientist, physics was my worst subject, but that's my very amateur understanding of the situation.

MOO

Ok thank you for responding back

 

[Puzzles8]

I once visited a museum that featured a real submarine you could go inside. I felt uncomfortable being inside, even above water. And I was inside by myself, just imagining what it would be like to be in close proximity to other passengers.

I bet it was at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It's still there. The museum has a German U Boat that was captured at the very end of WWII.

U-505 Submarine

Experience the real U-505, the only German submarine in the United States.

www.msichicago.org

To get to the sub, you take an elevator going down giving the illusion you are going under water.

To anyone visiting Chicago, the Museum of Science and Industry is the most interesting Museum I have ever been to.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The Coast Guard said there were one pilot and four “mission specialists” aboard. “Mission specialists” are people who pay to come along on OceanGate’s expeditions. They take turns operating sonar equipment and performing other tasks in the five-person submersible. (per NewsNation)

I find it very odd that the company classifies paying customers as mission specialists/crew members rather than passengers. Does anyone know why this is? MOO but I wonder if the safety standards for passenger vessels are more stringent than for research vessels and by having the paying passengers "take turns" operating equipment, the company is able to still classify it a "research" vessel (while still collecting money from passengers).

Your post makes me wonder if taking turns with the controls may have been a factor in what happened here.

I’ve also wondered about the possible shift in weight of the sub. That issue caused a ship to go down here in NS. A rogue wave hit the ship, the cargo shifted and the current brought them under.

The currents brought the ship further than expected. The search area had to be increased.

 

[Dpdan]

The cost of this operation must be phenomenal, $250K a ride absolutely pales in comparison.

This article is about the rescue of a sea kayaker:

Cost of Marin kayaker’s ocean rescue? $42,000. Who pays the bill?

Critics of kayaker Cyril Derreumaux argue that his trip was an act of folly that...

www.sfchronicle.com

“If people are choosing to do those longer adventurous or semi-dangerous treks, please reach out to us to help you plan that trip,” Kroll said. “As much as the Coast Guard is there to rescue people, we’d rather not have to. Keeping people out of danger is our goal.”

What happens when a boater needs a rescue far away from shore? Once a small craft travels beyond 100 miles from shore, helicopter fuel capacity becomes a limiting factor, and air rescues can become too difficult.

“It’s kind of the point of no return,” Kroll said. “Once you get 100 miles or so offshore, there are only a handful of assets we have to help you.”

 

[texaslb218]

I bet it was at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It's still there. The museum has a German U Boat that was captured at the very end of WWII.

U-505 Submarine

Experience the real U-505, the only German submarine in the United States.

www.msichicago.org

To get to the sub, you take an elevator going down giving the illusion you are going under water.

To anyone visiting Chicago, the Museum of Science and Industry is the most interesting Museum I have ever been to.

JMO

Seawolf park in Galveston has a mounted WWII sub that you can go through. It was so tight that I could only stay about 2 minutes and had to "run" out. I couldn't breath. I just can't imagine being trapped in such a situation.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

If there was any kind of leak, any flaw, as far as I know, at the depths they were going to, the entire thing would implode - collapse in on itself like an empty drink can. It would be very quick.

The pressure outside the vessel is far far greater than that on the inside. So any weak point or rupture, and the physics are, that disparity wants to equalise. And the higher pressure outside is vastly stronger than the lower pressure inside.

I am not a scientist, physics was my worst subject, but that's my very amateur understanding of the situation.

MOO

You’re helping me understand this, thank you.

Seawolf park in Galveston has a mounted WWII sub that you can go through. It was so tight that I could only stay about 2 minutes and had to "run" out. I couldn't breath. I just can't imagine being trapped in such a situation.

I’ve seriously had to remind myself to breathe while watching this disaster unfold.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I did some digging into the regulations governing submersibles and from what I was able to find, there are multiple different classifications of submersibles specified by the Coast Guard, each with varying levels of regulation.

The Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 (59 FR 792) introduced more stringent regulations of passenger vessels. Under the Act, a passenger is defined as follows (BBM):

(A) means an individual carried on the vessel except
(i) the owner or an individual representative of the owner or, in the case of a vessel under charter, an individual charterer or individual representative of the charterer;
(ii) the master; or
(iii) a member of the crew engaged in the business of the vessel who has not contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services

In this case, I think OceanGate is using subsection (iii) as a 'loophole' to allow them to classify Titan as an Uninspected Passenger Vessel (UPV) rather than a Small Passenger Vessel (SPV). Because the "mission specialists" take turns operating the equipment on board Titan, they are "engaged in the business of the vessel" and thus satisfy the first part of the passenger exemption under subsection (iii).

The second half of subsection (iii) specifies that to be considered a crew member, the person must not have "contributed consideration for carriage and who is paid for on board services." Since the "mission specialists" paid for the opportunity to go on the expedition, at first glance it appears they would not qualify for the crew member exception. However, the Act also amended the definition of "consideration" to allow for individuals to contribute to the operating costs of the vessel without being considered passengers:

(5a) ‘consideration’ means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

I suspect that OceanGate considers the $250,000 price tag to be a "mission specialist" as a "voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage" rather than a payment (which would make them passengers for hire and thus subject to SPV regulations), so given the fact that the "mission specialists" perform tasks while on board and are not "paying," they can operate Titan as a UPV and thus not subject to federal regulation. MOO.

Gee, I wonder what could go wrong?

 

[Puzzles8]

Yes, there was what looked like a bowl and a plastic container for urine and a privacy screen. But inside the vessel the space is the size of a minivan. I’d personally be holding it or wearing depends. But if they’re alive they’re past that point of being shy.

They have limited food and water.

Hopefully if they’re alive they’re keeping calm and breathing easy so that they don’t use up too much oxygen.

You bring up a good point. I never even thought about the lack of water or food onboard. Start to finish this dive was supposed to be approx. eight hour dive, so I doubt they brought along many supplies.

JMO

 

[MsMarple]

Here’s an excellent graphic explaining the effects of different depths under water:

This Mind-Blowing Illustration Shows How Deep The Ocean Is, And It Will Terrify You

The ocean covers more than 70% of the Earth's surface, yet we don't often realize just how truly deep and mysterious it is. National Ocean Service reports that around 95% of the ocean is unexplored, meaning that we really have no idea what lies deep down beneath the surface. Likely inspired by...

www.boredpanda.com

 

[LunaticFringe]

Seawolf park in Galveston has a mounted WWII sub that you can go through. It was so tight that I could only stay about 2 minutes and had to "run" out. I couldn't breath. I just can't imagine being trapped in such a situation.

I hear you.I'd go up in an alien space ship before I'd get into something the size of a mini austin to go underwater.That's just horrific to me.Bless all their hearts.

 

[IceIce9]

The cost of this operation must be phenomenal, $250K a ride absolutely pales in comparison.

This article is about the rescue of a sea kayaker:

Cost of Marin kayaker’s ocean rescue? $42,000. Who pays the bill?

Critics of kayaker Cyril Derreumaux argue that his trip was an act of folly that...

www.sfchronicle.com

“If people are choosing to do those longer adventurous or semi-dangerous treks, please reach out to us to help you plan that trip,” Kroll said. “As much as the Coast Guard is there to rescue people, we’d rather not have to. Keeping people out of danger is our goal.”

What happens when a boater needs a rescue far away from shore? Once a small craft travels beyond 100 miles from shore, helicopter fuel capacity becomes a limiting factor, and air rescues can become too difficult.

“It’s kind of the point of no return,” Kroll said. “Once you get 100 miles or so offshore, there are only a handful of assets we have to help you.”

I went on a Grand Canyon trek with several friends and we had to sign authorization to pay for our rescue costs in the event we would become ill or injured, or expenses for body recovery in the event of death.

I know that Everest climbers need to make a decision and sign a document whether to leave their body on the mountain or have recovery expenses paid by family in the event of death.

 

[IceIce9]

You bring up a good point. I never even thought about the lack of water or food onboard. Start to finish this dive was supposed to be approx. eight hour dive, so I doubt they brought along many supplies.

JMO

One of the first articles I read said they didn’t have food or water but that of course wasn’t the biggest concern.