TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[Veidt]

I'm still reading. I've noticed that my questions about Thanksgiving and motels were brought up by other people as well, around page 10 or so, and were answered.

I believe some good points were brought up and I think that if it was someone travelling on the Thanksgiving weekend, it was someone who was en route to somewhere else and stopped in Nashville, probably someone who left earlier under the excuse of going back home for work and then decided to make a long stop in Nashville. I also find this plausible:

To me, Thanksgiving weekend points to a local person rather than an out-of-town visitor. If I am visiting family from out of town, my presence is going to be missed if I am gone for a full day.

But, if I am local, and my family is out of town visiting somebody else, I am free the whole weekend to do as I please....

BBM.

Maybe someone who could plausibly lie or have a good reason not to go away with family and stay back in town. Or maybe someone who lived in town with friends or a live-in girlfriend or boyfriend, who then left for Thanksgiving and the perp didn't have anyone paying attention to where he was going and when.

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People have also mentioned a few times that Kathy may have taken a shortcut through the yards of nearby houses as people would have known her. Were local houses searched? Could any of the people who lived near her house have done it?

It's been mentioned a few times that Kathy wouldn't have gotten into a car with someone she didn't know well and that she may have even turned out a ride from someone who saw her walking outside alone (do we know what time that happened, by the way?).

This means that I think it would be unlikely to go into the house of a random stranger. I guess it's possible he could have pretended to be angry that she was trespassing or something, and then used that to throw her off-guard, but that seems less likely so I won't get into that unless anyone thinks that's an important possibility.

So if it was someone in a nearby house, I think it's more likely that it was someone Kathy knew reasonably well. Maybe he greeted her and made small talk and abducted her when nobody was around, or lured her inside the house or somewhere on the property under an excuse. Remember that someone who would do such a thing would be someone good at keeping up a facade, so most likely, he was someone nobody had any reason to be wary of and probably someone Kathy trusted.

Just an idea.

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Do we know for a fact that she had a dollar when she was found AND her mother also gave her a dollar when she left the house? Because to me that would indicate that she never made it to the KK and to the rink.

Unless someone at the KK had given her food or a beverage for free but that would have been suspicious (if it was the perp, he would avoid doing so, IMO) OR if it was an innocent person, the waiter would remember having given free food to the missing girl everyone was searching for.

So I think it's a pretty strong indicator she didn't make it to the KK or the RR.

As to the bus, I think it could have been free? I don't know, but it seems like a business running a service like a bus to pick up and drop off costumers would run it for free, to promote business. Kind of as saying, costumers don't even have to pay for their own transportation, it's free! And so on.

I think it wouldn't make sense for the bus to stop at the house of every kid like someone suggested. That would be more complicated and not very practical. I think it's more likely that the bus would have stopped at key locations in the area.

In the town where I grew up, there were a few private buses associated with businesses, like extracurricular activity clubs and day trips for old people. They usually stopped at key points like near schools or churches, even businesses they had an agreement with or which were very well-known locally, places which can be used as reference points to local residents. Could the KK be such a location?

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The weird thing is.. apparently, the police can't figure out which friends Kathy was meeting. Now, Kathy was a good girl and would have given her mother some specific names. I'm sure they were kids Nora knew. So, why couldn't the police just find these kids and ask them if they ever saw Kathy that night? Something is not right there and I do not understand what it may be.

Snipped respectfully.

Could it be that Kathy didn't know in advance which friends she was meeting exactly? Maybe it was well-known fact that local kids would be going to the rink at that hour since it wasn't a school day. So maybe both she and her mother figured she'd just run into kids she knew once she got to the rink.

Another thing I've thought is that since it was over a holiday, maybe they assumed some of Kathy's friends out be out of town, but she'd still run into at least a few or maybe even other children she knew from school but which weren't part of her main circle of friends.

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As per usual, this is all my own opinion and not authoritative statements.

 

[Veidt]

Sorry for the double post - I didn't want to make one gigantic post.

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I have a question, mainly for December, why are/were you looking at SS knives specifically? This isn't an attack, I'm just wondering.

Those usually fetch pretty high prices at auctions I believe, unless they're replicas.

If you're talking about the shape of the blade being consistent with the almond-shaped marks, there are also other knives that also have a similar blade shape. Just search for 'double blade knife' or something similar. Some of the images that will likely come up have fancier decorative blades that don't have an almond shape but look at the more practical designs that are intended for everyday use. IMO aside from the fact that the knives you're looking at have the SS logo, the blade marks they'd leave could be much the same as any other knife of this type.


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WARNING, This post contains information someone might not want to know. Read at your own risk. Post is not graphic in nature.

The reason I think Kathy might have been menanced with a knife is it would cause her body to produce adrenaline. Some people get small amounts of blood from their terrified victim and drink that blood because it is like taking a drug. Kathy was young and healthy. Her body, chemically, would produce anything it needed. If someone terrifed her that she would die (and it was a legit threat since she did die), her body would produce chemicals that someone might get from small, non-lethal cuts.

(Snipped. My reply may also be graphic in nature.)

I don't think that's actually true... I've searched for it and all I could find were websites about aliens and then unrelated results about health problems.

I don't think that small, non-lethal cuts would have produced enough blood for that if that was the perp's intention IMO. The only non-lethal amount that I can see being feasible for that would probably be much higher like the kind you can recover from but it's very severe and even takes days or even a transfusion.

Not to mention, I don't think that adrenaline is in its 'original' state when it's in the blood so it would be more dilluted. Otherwise, everyone who went hunting or raised their own livestock for food would always seem like they were on drugs.

It seems more feasible to me that if those were indeed cuts made intentionally, that they were made by the perp trying to threaten her.

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(This part may be graphic also.)

Something I've thought about the almond-shaped marks. Were they filled in or more of an outline? If it's the latter it makes me think of chains. Most of them are more oval however, I've seen a few smaller ones that are more almond-shaped than neatly oval. If they were solid shapes, then it could also be buttons used on a piece of clothing, or decorative studs from maybe a belt? I don't mean the studs you see on belts nowadays that are much higher but the ones that are only slightly more raised than the fabric itself.

This in addition to what people have said of collars which he could have improvised as a way of keeping her from running away.

I have a question, would knife-marks be considered almond-shaped as mentioned above? The first thing that came to mind when I read 'almond-shaped marks' was not the tip of a knife, but something that made that shape on both ends.

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I also wonder if the reason why they dropped the charges against Adcox is that he was wrong about some detail they were keeping to themselves. I've heard, both on WS and from reading, that sometimes LE keeps details about the crime scenes to themselves, so they can check and see if sources and perps are for real because it's the sort of insider info that never make it to the media.

Maybe he confessed when talking to the 'known felon' and then to the little boy to try and sound intimidating but when he was questioned, or when what the known felon or the boy reported back he said, didn't match up to what they had on file.

Maybe they believed he was innocent or maybe they knew he wasn't innocent but that he wasn't the main perp they were also hoping to find. Like maybe he helped the main perp, or he knew the main perp and heard some details from him, but then he got some of the insider info wrong in majorly important points that the main perp would know.

I wonder if he could also be taking the fall for someone he knew and was friends with, maybe someone who owed him a favor. What if the main perp once caught could be easily linked to the crime scene or at least the perp and Adcox thought so? So then Adcox, knowing it'll take a while for LE to find something on which to presecute him, throws them off by pretending he was the main and only perp and then when they're getting closer to that he pretends to be entirely innocent.

Just a thought.

As usual everything is :twocents:, :moo:, etc.

 

[nerosleuth]

Thank you, I think I understand now. So Thanksgiving week is the week on which Thanksgiving falls, or is it Thursday to Thursday?

Thanksgiving Week is the week which Thanksgiving Day fall on Thursday.

There's another thing I'd like to point out. I don't know enough about legal records, much less US ones, to know this. However where I live, you don't have to own the space where you run a business. I don't know if I'm explaining this right, but for example, let's say I wanted to start a book shop and call it Books. I'd own Books but I could just rent a place for Books. Like when people own a company and rent an office, or when the adults of a family rent a house. I don't know if such a thing would come up in property deeds but I guess it would. I also think that the roller rink location would probably be owned by the owner of the business itself.

The property tax records would only tell you who (either an individual or a company) owns the property.

For example, if I owned an office building, the property tax record would only say that I am the owner of the land and building for that property. It would not say who the tenants of my office building are.

 

[Veidt]

Thanksgiving Week is the week which Thanksgiving Day fall on Thursday.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.

The property tax records would only tell you who (either an individual or a company) owns the property.

For example, if I owned an office building, the property tax record would only say that I am the owner of the land and building for that property. It would not say who the tenants of my office building are.

Thanks. Is there a way tenants could be checked, like some other kind of archive?

For the businesses, I assume it would be easier to confirm if the owner of the place was also the owner of the business operating in it - I would guess there's some kind of registry for businesses so it would be a matter of checking if it's the same person. I think both would be important as someone who merely owned the building could still have some ties to the business or the area in general.

It's probably harder for residental buildings, I assume.

 

[Searchin']

Just wanted to say to all the Websleuthers, "Merry Christmas y'all"!

also...

December, I hope you are getting better and can join us again real soon. We miss you.

 

[Backwoods]

Just wanted to say to all the Websleuthers, "Merry Christmas y'all"!

also...

December, I hope you are getting better and can join us again real soon. We miss you.

Merry Christmas back at you, Searchin'!

And bbm: I second that!

 

[Veidt]

I hope everyone's holidays were good too... I haven't been able to be online often due to health issues as well so I understand December. But December, I hope you do come back soon, we do miss you!

 

[Tulessa]

December hasn't been active since November. I'm getting worried! Update us sweetheart!!

 

[MrsTigglesworth]

Thinking of Kathy... And you, December. I hope all is ok.

 

[scriptgirl]

why would they have to break her legs to get her in a coffin?

 

[bessie]

why would they have to break her legs to get her in a coffin?

I don't believe her legs were actually "broken", meaning the bones. Most likely the joints were frozen, and it was the rigor mortis which had to be "broken".

 

[bessie]

Thinking of Kathy, and holding on to the hope that justice will come one day.

 

[scriptgirl]

Thanks, Bessie.

 

[Kell1]

Sorry to be late to the discussion,

Just so I have the facts straight

Left home, Nov 19, found Dec 2 , coroner feels she was killed Dec 1

Arms, bound behind her back with a Plaid material, yet her own clothes, were used to gag her, and in the case of her sock suffocate the victim

She's found discarded in tall grass, behind a Krispy Kreme donuts.

Several stab sounds to neck one under her left breast, possibly post mortem?

Evidence of prolonged, abuse, (IE severe bruising on her buttocks) .. and I believe December said bruises elsewhere

The rape included vaginal and anal penetration.

 

[Backwoods]

RichKelly, November 29 was the date Kathy set out from home to go rollerskating...

 

[bessie]

Sorry to be late to the discussion,

Just so I have the facts straight

Left home, Nov 19, found Dec 2 , coroner feels she was killed Dec 1

Arms, bound behind her back with a Plaid material, yet her own clothes, were used to gag her, and in the case of her sock suffocate the victim

She's found discarded in tall grass, behind a Krispy Kreme donuts.

Several stab sounds to neck one under her left breast, possibly post mortem?

Evidence of prolonged, abuse, (IE severe bruising on her buttocks) .. and I believe December said bruises elsewhere

The rape included vaginal and anal penetration.

Kathy went missing on the evening of November 29, 1969, the same day as Glenda Sirmans.

The plaid cloth was torn from the lining of her jacket.

I'm quoting my own post with a list of the facts taken primarily from media reports.

To complete this list I'm adding what we already knew from the article.

• Kathy Jones was a blonde, blue-eyed sixth grader
• Her body was found 300 yards from the Roller Drome Skating Rink on Thompson Lane.
• Kathy "apparently" was dead since Saturday night
• She "probably" was attacked while walking to the skating rink.
• She "apparently" suffocated
• A sock was stuffed down her throat
• Her blouse was "shoved into her mouth"
• Lying face down in the tall weeds behind Krispy Kreme
• A "faint trace of blood" on her stomach
• She was wearing only one sock
• A Civil Defense sergeant made the discovery
• The Civil Defense team started searching Sunday night
• A resident who lived next to the lot didn't hear unusual noises on Saturday night. She was away visiting relatives all day on Sunday.
• Kathy left home headed to the skating rink at 7:45 P.M. on Saturday evening
• "...an investigation disclosed" that she didn't make it to the rink.
• A Metro policeman at the scene declared, "There had to be at least three persons involved in this." (Keep in mind, this is not an official statement. The officer didn't want to be identified, and it reads like an initial gut reaction. He goes on to say he would "probably want to kill" the persons responsible if he could catch them.)
• K's nude body was lying 20' from the alley.
• It couldn't be seen by searchers walking down the alley or the street.
• Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet. (This description differs somewhat from the one reported by the Scene.)
• K's blouse was used as a gag.
• Two strips of cloth torn from the lining of her jacket were used to tie her wrists. (Answers the question about the plaid cloth some speculated might belong to the killer.)
• Spectators were kept away from the scene while LE searched for clues.
• According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found
• The body was taken to a funeral home after an investigator from the DA's office arrived on the scene.
• Kathy left home by herself intending to walk to the skating rink.
• She had not been there for "some time" because "she didn't want her two little brothers following her."
• K's mom told the Banner that K earned $1.00 by helping her with housework on Saturday.
• LE didn't say if the money was found at the scene.
• K was not "to the nylon-lipstick stage", according to her mother.
• After being taken to the funeral home, Metro M.E., Dr. T. E. Simpkins, was expected to perform "a detailed examination and possible autopsy". (This is not the same doctor we talked about earlier who was named in this article, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723%2C2584619)
• LE at the scene said it was obvious K had been "criminally assaulted, probably before she was slain".
• Parents were separated; father lived in Clarksville.
• The plan was for K to call her mom when she finished skating, and her mom would pick her up.
• When K didn't call, her mom went to the rink, but it was closed.
• After hearing from Mrs. Jones that K had never run away, had no problems at home, and had told her mom she'd call when she was finished skating, the CD director ordered the unit to search.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9dpNu3jLO3tel9ab3o4WHlBYzQ&usp=sharing

ETA: Adding links

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=10774294

 

[bessie]

This is the list from the Scene article.

***WARNING*** Description is graphic.

- Short blonde hair. Naked in the weeds,
- lying on her right side, back bent, arms tied behind her with plaid cloth.
- Her eyes are slightly open, and her head is pushed far back...
- her blouse tied around her mouth and neck.
- Her throat has several almond shaped cuts.
- There is a puncture wound below her small left breast.
- Blood is here and there.
- Her right leg is straight
- her left knee is drawn almost to her waist.
- both vaginal and anal penetration
- Her buttocks are nearly black from the bruises.
- What clothes weren’t used to bind and gag her are crumpled beside her.
- a little glove with a checkered, Christmasy design
- Her coat lies in front of her
- white underwear are wadded on the ground against her chest
- Scattered on the grass are her purse and a deck of her playing cards.
- Beside her thigh, on its wheels, ready to be picked up and put on, is a clean, white, leather roller skate.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

 

[STANDREID]

December, I know nothing much about the fellow who does the blog linked below -- it appears he is some sort of crime writer...?

There's some good information on that site despite the slightly lurid title.

 

[Kell1]

Were they able to confirm sexual assault?

 

[Betty P]

This is entirely speculation by me. Nothing else.

I know Micky Miller told the Scene there was no autopsy. However, an autopsy in 1998 and an autopsy in 1969 are two different things. I think this is why he said this because it is not easy to explain. MOOOO

Here's a comment from a WS member, December, who is related to Kathy. She hasn't been here in a while. IIRC sexual assault was confirmed but its uncertain what evidence is still available, if any, for DNA testing. December was hoping to meet with Nashville PD, but had not been able to see any files on the case.

Nashville LE believes the perp is in prison, they have an idea who he is. The family had their own idea of a suspect as well, a man they knew but with whom they were not on friendly terms. One of the suspects lived fairly close to the crime scene.