TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[December]

I happened to click on this thread because it was the featured case here. I usually read the first couple pages of the featured case and then move on to something else. However this case I sat and read the entire thread from page one to now. Maybe because when I clicked on it and started reading, I was sitting out on our patio with my daughter who was out on the patio roller skating.
I couldn't stop thinking about Kathy...the thing that really haunts me about it is thinking of this child carrying her bible with her in her little purse...that innocent little girl should never have had to meet such evil.
I guess the only comforting thing is the belief that she went straight to a place where there is no such thing as pain, and nothing evil is allowed past the gates.
I know my post doesn't add anything and I don't have any new information or leads or anything, but I just felt led to post here just to make it known that there's one more person who cares about Kathy.

I really appreciate your post and that you took the time to read about Kathy. Your post is important to me.

Here is the only way I can deal with what happened to Kathy and to my friend (and other murder victims)... I think maybe if God sees that there is no way they will get free or be rescued; and He sees they are going to be tortured by an evil person.. He takes their spirit on to heaven. Or at least closer than normal humans get before they do go on to heaven.

So, that the evil murderers do not get to destroy the soul of their victims or scar that soul. Because God has it and holds it to him. All the murderer can touch is the body; the vessel.

No matter what they did to Kathy, she was pure and with God when she died. Her murderers will never be like her even if they repent and are forgiven. I know you understand.

 

[pageantmom]

That makes a lot of sense December. God gives us the gift of free will...but it must grieve him terribly when people use their free will to cause harm to others...After reading your post I was reminded of the words of Jesus (found in Matthew 18:6) "But whoever is a cause of harm to one of these little ones who believe, it would be better for him that a mill stone were hanged about his neck and he were dropped into the sea."

 

[TrixieBel]

You know those strange coincidences that happen? Had one tonight when this came on the channel I just happened to be on.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3059726/

 

[December]

That makes a lot of sense December. God gives us the gift of free will...but it must grieve him terribly when people use their free will to cause harm to others...After reading your post I was reminded of the words of Jesus (found in Matthew 18:6) "But whoever is a cause of harm to one of these little ones who believe, it would be better for him that a mill stone were hanged about his neck and he were dropped into the sea."

What a wonderful reminder how much Jesus loves the children who believe in Him.

Even going ffrom a secular standpoint, people are given freedom to decide many things in life. Some people go out and try to achieve things, have some fun, form relationships. Things may not work out, but they tried to contribute something positive to the world. Then there are murderers and they just want to destroy people. That's the best they can come up with for themselves.

 

[December]

Back to creepy things...

Nov. 29 is the 333rd day of the year in non-leap years (1969 was not a leap year, so it was the 333rde of 1969) with only 32 days left in the year (in this case decade).

Here is some information about 11/29

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_29

 

[nerosleuth]

Maybe..

So, this had to be someone who was comfortable going from Knoxville to Nashville regularly and had contacts both places. (Or had contacts both places with good area knowledge although that'd be hard to set up fast.)

I will say police in Nashville would not really expect a murderer to take a girl all the way back to east TN. Because Whhhhy are you going to east TN?!

But some place in between.. hmmmm.. let me get my little map.

I'm keeping an open mind and considering all possible angles here.

In the Kingsport murder case, I believe the victim was found in a cave.

In a previous post, I pointed out the possibility of an underground ring being involved in sexual or ritual activities.

I believe most crimes involving ritual activities take place in rural areas where there are not a lot of folks nearby and are unaware of such activities.

It could take place in a dwelling or building structure somewhere in the rural woods on private property. It could even take place in a private cave somewhere on private property.

If a crime involving sexual activities took place in an urban area, it likely would have taken place in an area that doesn't have a lot of dwellings nearby. Maybe an area that is just outside but near the city limits.

If more than one person were involved in the abduction, it could be possible that Kathy was taken to a rural location somewhere outside of Davidson County.

If Kathy was taken somewhere between Nashville and Knoxville, my best guess is maybe somewhere before you reach Cookeville.

But if Kathy was taken by only one person, then she likely was taken to a location somewhere in Davidson County. It's also possible that Kathy could have been taken to a rural area somewhere in Davidson County as well.

 

[Tulessa]

I'm keeping an open mind and considering all possible angles here.

In the Kingsport murder case, I believe the victim was found in a cave.

In a previous post, I pointed out the possibility of an underground ring being involved in sexual or ritual activities.

I believe most crimes involving ritual activities take place in rural areas where there are not a lot of folks nearby and are unaware of such activities.

It could take place in a dwelling or building structure somewhere in the rural woods on private property. It could even take place in a private cave somewhere on private property.

If a crime involving sexual activities took place in an urban area, it likely would have taken place in an area that doesn't have a lot of dwellings nearby. Maybe an area that is just outside but near the city limits.

If more than one person were involved in the abduction, it could be possible that Kathy was taken to a rural location somewhere outside of Davidson County.

If Kathy was taken somewhere between Nashville and Knoxville, my best guess is maybe somewhere before you reach Cookeville.

But if Kathy was taken by only one person, then she likely was taken to a location somewhere in Davidson County. It's also possible that Kathy could have been taken to a rural area somewhere in Davidson County as well.

Now that's interesting! Tenn and Ky both, are riddled with caves. Hmmm, I had a map bookmarked, if I haven't deleted it, of the caves scattered through out Tenn.

 

[Tulessa]

Side-by-side waterfalls send half of a river on its merry way to Lake Superior. But the other half? No one's been able to figure it out.
http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/eco-tourism/stories/the-mystery-of-devils-kettle-falls

I've always found things like this to be interesting. In the northern part of Tennessee there are a few areas referred to as "pocket wildernesses", land original logged for it's trees then once it was realized the uniqueness of the different areas the logging companies set aside some them. One area is called Virgin Falls. There is an underground river that emerges from a cave flows for about forty to fifty feet then falls one hundred and ten feet ,disappearing into another cave. This has caused a funnel shape valley ,if you can call it that. There are extensive caves systems in the area as a result of this river. Friends of mine were able to easily enter a cavern to the side of were the river initially exits to see the river in the cave then they proceeded to travel about a quarter mile into a tunnel that was even high then the area of water flow. On the Buffalo River,in Arkansas there is a fall that disappears then emerges into the river,welling up from the river bed, further down stream In Missouri on a river that They have canoed, A part of the river is known to go underground and emerges into another separate river eleven miles away as proven by using dyes added to the water flow.
Two views of Virgin Falls with different amounts of water falling.....
Heavy flow..
Virgin Falls, Tennessee - YouTube
Light flow with some people zip lining the funnel shaped depression..
2011-07-16 (Virgin Falls) - YouTube

Devil kettle falls.

 

[Tulessa]

I'm gonna make that trip one day. But I'll be armed. Tenn., is kinda scaring me lol.

 

[December]

I'm gonna make that trip one day. But I'll be armed. Tenn., is kinda scaring me lol.

It's really safe where I live. I think there is a big difference between one place and another. And I don't live in a rich area (it's just average).

I think where Kathy lived was a medium risk area. But, I don't think people knew it. I also think the building of the mall and a few other things (that had happened kind of recently) really changed the area. Before the mall, a woman owned the land and there was just a house there surrounded by beautiful trees.

A developer bought the land and bulldozed the trees. And then, after the mall opened, a lot of people who would not normally be there started filtering in or passing through.

 

[December]

Side-by-side waterfalls send half of a river on its merry way to Lake Superior. But the other half? No one's been able to figure it out.
http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/eco-tourism/stories/the-mystery-of-devils-kettle-falls

I've always found things like this to be interesting. In the northern part of Tennessee there are a few areas referred to as "pocket wildernesses", land original logged for it's trees then once it was realized the uniqueness of the different areas the logging companies set aside some them. One area is called Virgin Falls. There is an underground river that emerges from a cave flows for about forty to fifty feet then falls one hundred and ten feet ,disappearing into another cave. This has caused a funnel shape valley ,if you can call it that. There are extensive caves systems in the area as a result of this river. Friends of mine were able to easily enter a cavern to the side of were the river initially exits to see the river in the cave then they proceeded to travel about a quarter mile into a tunnel that was even high then the area of water flow. On the Buffalo River,in Arkansas there is a fall that disappears then emerges into the river,welling up from the river bed, further down stream In Missouri on a river that They have canoed, A part of the river is known to go underground and emerges into another separate river eleven miles away as proven by using dyes added to the water flow.
Two views of Virgin Falls with different amounts of water falling.....
Heavy flow..
Virgin Falls, Tennessee - YouTube
Light flow with some people zip lining the funnel shaped depression..
2011-07-16 (Virgin Falls) - YouTube

Devil kettle falls.

One thing about falls is they would mask a lot of noise.

I don't know... I suppose it is possible and it is something the police haven't considered.

I wonder what this area that became Coleman Park looked like in 1969... I can't find when the park opened, only when the fancy building they have there opened (which was only recently).

 

[December]

I'm keeping an open mind and considering all possible angles here.

In the Kingsport murder case, I believe the victim was found in a cave.

In a previous post, I pointed out the possibility of an underground ring being involved in sexual or ritual activities.

I believe most crimes involving ritual activities take place in rural areas where there are not a lot of folks nearby and are unaware of such activities.

It could take place in a dwelling or building structure somewhere in the rural woods on private property. It could even take place in a private cave somewhere on private property.

If a crime involving sexual activities took place in an urban area, it likely would have taken place in an area that doesn't have a lot of dwellings nearby. Maybe an area that is just outside but near the city limits.

If more than one person were involved in the abduction, it could be possible that Kathy was taken to a rural location somewhere outside of Davidson County.

If Kathy was taken somewhere between Nashville and Knoxville, my best guess is maybe somewhere before you reach Cookeville.

But if Kathy was taken by only one person, then she likely was taken to a location somewhere in Davidson County. It's also possible that Kathy could have been taken to a rural area somewhere in Davidson County as well.

I believe there were still some old houses around that had bigger yards than where Kathy lived. So, I always figured one of those (maybe one in disrepair and unused). Or even an old store or something.

But, it is possible she was taken to some location that no one would suspect.

The murderer had a pretty large window of time when she wasn't really being heavily looked for.. I guess he figured out no one saw him take her. So, it may not have been too difficult to transport her to some in between location.

I guess the police at the time looked for the crime scene all of the obvious places. But, they wouldn't be able to search private residences, etc. without a warrant. So, that would have hampered them greatly.

However, I am not discounting the cave/travel theory... it is possible.

I was trying to find out about rumors involving certain types of activity. I did some searches last night, but the only thing I came up with was a report of skeletal remains being found. It was in Johnson City, I believe. but, they had no additional info.

 

[bessie]

The one I know of in Johnson City was Theresa Neal, 4, in 1963. That's an odd story. The little girl was in her bedroom with both parents at home. Mother heard the back door close around 8:00 P.M. About an hour later, the little girl was found dead in a trash can on the carport. She'd been strangled with her father's necktie.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2FBCAAAAIBAJ&sjid=56oMAAAAIBAJ&dq=theresa%20ann%20neal%20necktie&pg=6883%2C440654

Someone brought this up earlier in the thread, and I'd like to know the answer, myself. How did the coroner determine time of death? There was no autopsy, so stomach contents wasn't a factor. I have to assume rigor mortis was used to gauge the interval since death, but that can vary. Cold temperatures, for instance, often slow the process. And what about livor mortis? Did it show the body had been moved? What about the blackening bruises on the buttocks? Were they ade darker by livor mortis after death?

How certain was LE that KJ had been held in another location? I question whether the attack took place elsewhere because the description of the crime scene doesn't fit with that scenario.



ETA: IMO, wherever the attack occurred was in hearing range of other people, thus the need for the gag to muffle her screams.

 

[TrixieBel]

Yes, that is really odd. What are the chances Theresa's family was responsible for her death? She was found in the Garbage can two feet from the kitchen door??!!

 

[December]

The one I know of in Johnson City was Theresa Neal, 4, in 1963. That's an odd story. The little girl was in her bedroom with both parents at home. Mother heard the back door close around 8:00 P.M. About an hour later, the little girl was found dead in a trash can on the carport. She'd been strangled with her father's necktie.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2FBCAAAAIBAJ&sjid=56oMAAAAIBAJ&dq=theresa%20ann%20neal%20necktie&pg=6883%2C440654

Someone brought this up earlier in the thread, and I'd like to know the answer, myself. How did the coroner determine time of death? There was no autopsy, so stomach contents wasn't a factor. I have to assume rigor mortis was used to gauge the interval since death, but that can vary. Cold temperatures, for instance, often slow the process. And what about livor mortis? Did it show the body had been moved? What about the blackening bruises on the buttocks? Were they ade darker by livor mortis after death?

How certain was LE that KJ had been held in another location? I question whether the attack took place elsewhere because the description of the crime scene doesn't fit with that scenario.



ETA: IMO, wherever the attack occurred was in hearing range of other people, thus the need for the gag to muffle her screams.

I just believe the crime could not have taken place where she was found. Too long would be needed to commit the crime and this was a vacant lot anyone could see. People might have even cut through it at one point. Weird thing is, it's STILL a vacant lot (according to maps, I haven't been there). But, even in 1969, it would be far too exposed for such an involved crime to have taken place there. Her body was on the ground, so it wasn't as easy to see.

Now, it might be possible that she was killed closer to the time she was left there. I think it says in one of these articles somewhere how the time of death was determined. I will try to find it if I can.

As far as how low she had been there.. I have a feeling just a few hours.

But, I am trying to think of places not too far from Nashville... where people might hear (maybe)... that would be secluded enough to commit the crime. Or in Nashville.

In a way, I am wondering about 100 Oaks Mall.. Not in the mall itself, of course. But, maybe there was a building somewhere on that property that the murderers could access. Or, honestly, I guess it could just be a house in the area. As long as no one saw the going in or out, then they'd be fine. And if it was a house that had a garage, that would work perfectly.

There was a house right across from Central State (which was over on Murfreesboro Rd., it was a huge mental institution.. it's not there now or if anything is still there it is teeny tiny compared to what it once was.. it was many very large buildings). This house, I know, changed hands several times being that it was right across from the mental institution, but it was a great big white house.. not really the kind one might picutre in Tennessee. It looked a little like Norma Bates & Mom's house. It had long periods where it was empty. I don't know the status of it in 1969.

 

[Tulessa]

The one I know of in Johnson City was Theresa Neal, 4, in 1963. That's an odd story. The little girl was in her bedroom with both parents at home. Mother heard the back door close around 8:00 P.M. About an hour later, the little girl was found dead in a trash can on the carport. She'd been strangled with her father's necktie.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2FBCAAAAIBAJ&sjid=56oMAAAAIBAJ&dq=theresa%20ann%20neal%20necktie&pg=6883%2C440654

Someone brought this up earlier in the thread, and I'd like to know the answer, myself. How did the coroner determine time of death? There was no autopsy, so stomach contents wasn't a factor. I have to assume rigor mortis was used to gauge the interval since death, but that can vary. Cold temperatures, for instance, often slow the process. And what about livor mortis? Did it show the body had been moved? What about the blackening bruises on the buttocks? Were they ade darker by livor mortis after death?

How certain was LE that KJ had been held in another location? I question whether the attack took place elsewhere because the description of the crime scene doesn't fit with that scenario.



ETA: IMO, wherever the attack occurred was in hearing range of other people, thus the need for the gag to muffle her screams.

bessie, you're an absolute gem! Is there a thread on her? We need to sleuth the heck outta that one!

 

[Tulessa]

I'll be back! Gonna check out the Maddy Mcann thread. There was breaking news on her last night!

 

[bessie]

***WARNING*** Description is graphic.

For that matter, it could've been a motel room. I don't know, but the positioning of her body and her belongings doesn't read like a dump site to me. I wonder if anything was missing. For instance, only one skate is mentioned. Of course, that doesn't mean the other one wasn't present. It only leaves another question mark.

Also, what about the puncture wound in the chest? I wonder how deep it was. And blood "here and there". On Kathy? In the grass? Here and where?

Don't mind me, December. I'm just thinking aloud. I know you can't answer these questions.

- Short blonde hair. Naked in the weeds,
- lying on her right side, back bent, arms tied behind her with plaid cloth.
- Her eyes are slightly open, and her head is pushed far back...
- her blouse tied around her mouth and neck.
- Her throat has several almond shaped cuts.
- There is a puncture wound below her small left breast.
- Blood is here and there.
- Her right leg is straight
- her left knee is drawn almost to her waist.
- both vaginal and anal penetration
- Her buttocks are nearly black from the bruises.
- What clothes weren’t used to bind and gag her are crumpled beside her.
- a little glove with a checkered, Christmasy design
- Her coat lies in front of her
- white underwear are wadded on the ground against her chest
- Scattered on the grass are her purse and a deck of her playing cards.
- Beside her thigh, on its wheels, ready to be picked up and put on, is a clean, white, leather roller skate.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

 

[bessie]

bessie, you're an absolute gem! Is there a thread on her? We need to sleuth the heck outta that one!

No, I haven't opened one yet. I also didn't find much on it when I searched. I'll open one later.

 

[Tulessa]

No, I haven't opened one yet. I also didn't find much on it when I searched. I'll open one later.

Thank you! For some uplifting news, read in Maddy's thread.
Clues spark new Madeleine McCann hunt

THE hunt for Madeleine McCann took a decisive turn last night after her parents said for the first time that pieces of the jigsaw are finally fitting together