TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[bessie]

Using the street view map that was posted a few days ago, I see two possible routes here.

The first one that MrTT pointed out is Kathy walking on Woodbine and then Grandview to reach her destination.

The second one is the alley between Grandview and Nolensville that ran from Thompson to Woodbine that another person suggested a few days ago.

The question here is did Grandview or the alley have any street lights back then?

If the alley didn’t have street lights, I don’t know if Kathy would have been comfortable walking on a dark alley at night.

What about Grandview and Lutie? Did those streets have street lights and sidewalks back then?

I can understand Kathy wanting to take Grandview if it was a well lit street at night and didn’t like the traffic on Nolensville.

About the area around the Nolensville-Thompson intersection, were there any nearby fast food or pizza joints back then where teens would have went to on a weekend night?

This thought just came to me. Was there any drive in theaters still open around that time of the year in the Nashville area? I’m thinking of a drive in theater that is set back from the roadway and closed for the season.

Shoney's. The "weird guy" is Adcox.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SOLVED TN - Marcia Trimble, 9, Girl Scout abducted/killed delivering cookies Nashville, 1975

 

[Backwoods]

Using the street view map that was posted a few days ago, I see two possible routes here.

The first one that MrTT pointed out is Kathy walking on Woodbine and then Grandview to reach her destination.

The second one is the alley between Grandview and Nolensville that ran from Thompson to Woodbine that another person suggested a few days ago.

The question here is did Grandview or the alley have any street lights back then?

If the alley didn’t have street lights, I don’t know if Kathy would have been comfortable walking on a dark alley at night.

What about Grandview and Lutie? Did those streets have street lights and sidewalks back then?

I can understand Kathy wanting to take Grandview if it was a well lit street at night and didn’t like the traffic on Nolensville.

About the area around the Nolensville-Thompson intersection, were there any nearby fast food or pizza joints back then where teens would have went to on a weekend night?

This thought just came to me. Was there any drive in theaters still open around that time of the year in the Nashville area? I’m thinking of a drive in theater that is set back from the roadway and closed for the season.

This page might help -- #20 mentions what sound like some Nashville area food hang-outs and #91 talks about "teen clubs" in the 1960s.

http://nashlinks.com/remember.htm

 

[bessie]

And of course, there was the tavern in the photo. Maybe not a hang out for teens, but a seedy character or two perhaps.

 

[December]

I posted a photo of the kk sign. it is the same sign, the original. they kept it.It is earlier in the thread

i have to go now... thanks everyone

 

[December]

Shoney's. The "weird guy" is Adcox.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SOLVED TN - Marcia Trimble, 9, Girl Scout abducted/killed delivering cookies Nashville, 1975

the weird guy is darrell.

eta

also i am wracking my brains trying to figure out where that shoneys was exactly. oh wait, it was an old drive up one... those were all closed by the time i would have gone.

 

[December]

Yep -- I just keep hoping to catch a glimpse of the 1969 Krispy Kreme or the AWRD!! Don't know that it would help, but it's like a quest...

I look at the vehicles and people in these old pictures and think...was that truck involved? Did that guy know something?

nola, while you are hunting up pics of the area from that time, here's something I found the other night that MIGHT help, I don't know. This site includes some older-style KK signs from around the country (as well as newer ones).:

http://www.agilitynut.com/sca/donuts3.html

I don't know what style sign the KK would have had in 1969, but it occurred to me that, if it was an older style and we saw it from "afar off", we might not immediately recognize it as KK.

that is the old kroger in elysian fields. the most recent thing in that shopping center (circa 2000) would be a cvs, formerly superx (back when there was a kroger there). i can only go back to the 70s... idk about the 60s. so, maybe not originally superx. but to orient yourself, that kroger is in elysian fields shopping center.

the kk sign was the same as it is now. i posted a photo early in the thread.

 

[December]

And of course, there was the tavern in the photo. Maybe not a hang out for teens, but a seedy character or two perhaps.

is that photo from 63? i wonder how much businesses changed out between 63 and 69... what with the mall coming in and the land becoming more desirable and rents going it.

but it may have been there. idk.

 

[December]

Nola, I understand your obsession about looking for photos. I find myself staying up to all hours as I discover new websites. I usually have to bookmark them and continue the next day.

With a copy of the Gulf station photo in hand, I parked in Eckerd's lot which is about the location where the photographer stood. It's looking south down Nolensville Rd (White Castle is now across Thompson Lane from the Gulf station/Eckerd). The building in the background with the Kroger sign is still there....it's just another business.
Since I don't know how long WC has been there, that may have originally been the location of Charlie's Tavern.

there were no white castles at all in nashville until the late 80s. i dk when that particular one was built, but i think it wasn't the first... so maybe 90s.

 

[December]

I drove down the alley again today and noticed the lot is fenced on three sides leaving the KK side open. So I parked in KK's parking lot and walked around. I did notice several large trees on the right side of the lot (looking from the alley). I was amazed how soft the ground was (I know that was mentioned earlier). I don't think it would take much to leave a print or tire tracks. Of course this is a month earlier than the crime.

Oh....thank you Bessie for explaining how to post a photo. I will try that soon.

that is interesting.

of course, they keep the lot looking demure these days. those weeds back in the day were some wild weeds, but they may be a type that grows best on soft ground just by what they looked like at ground level (as far as can be told from the photo).

do the trees look old?

 

[December]

Like the creature who killed poor Glenda Sirmans on the very same day and not so far from Nashville. Her murder received even less coverage than Kathy's. And Wanda June Anderson, raped and beaten to death with a pipe just a few years earlier. Reba Kay Green, stabbed in her bed while lying next to her twin sister. So many. Too many.

TN TN - Glenda Marie Sirmans, 13, Farragut, 29 November 1969 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

yes, i have no forgotten those girls.

eva breaks the pattern, but maybe she knew something (or someone thought she did).

 

[December]

i have spent many, many nights searching for photos. i actually found one of the ones just posted, but didn't know if it was specific enough being across nolensville rd. but, i see it is helpful.

eta

i mean i found it on my searches. i never posted it or told anyone.

 

[Arnie M]

Further to the empty lot being a "heavily wooded area" .... would that not be all those trees in the upper right hand of the 1960's picture ??

Here is what I go by .... I believe the 1960's picture is taken from Thompson Lane at Nolensville Pike .... and going by the angle of Nolensville Pike it would mean that the Krispy Kreme is farther ahead (west) a bit up the hill

Maybe I got that wrong .... my brains are tired .... too many tabs open ...

I include some modern day pics and maps to add to the confusion

If I have gotten anything wrong it is the direction of the 1960's picture ... but like I said look at the angle of Nolensville Pike as it crosses Thompson Lane ... going by that I think it is facing west toward the roller-rink Krispy Kreme location

I could be wrong

 

[Arnie M]

Anyone interested in Thompson Lane pictures .... here is the firehall in 1954 at 311 Thompson which is just a couple of blocks East of the Krispy Kreme - roller rink area .... today it is a Nissan dealership

A note about the other firehall which has the number 4539 on it .... somebody mentioned it cannot be right because the numbers do not go that high on that street

http://historicnashville.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/thompson-lane-fire-department/

 

[bessie]

I see you're having a good time looking at the old pictures, too, Arnie. I must've looked at a thousand tonight. I find myself really enjoying the nostalgia.

I get what you're saying in the first set of pictures. Number one might be facing in the wrong direction, but I'm too tired to figure it out now. I'll leave that one for Searchin' to explain.

 

[December]

Further to the empty lot being a "heavily wooded area" .... would that not be all those trees in the upper right hand of the 1960's picture ??

Here is what I go by .... I believe the 1960's picture is taken from Thompson Lane at Nolensville Pike .... and going by the angle of Nolensville Pike it would mean that the Krispy Kreme is farther ahead (west) a bit up the hill

Maybe I got that wrong .... my brains are tired .... too many tabs open ...

I include some modern day pics and maps to add to the confusion

If I have gotten anything wrong it is the direction of the 1960's picture ... but like I said look at the angle of Nolensville Pike as it crosses Thompson Lane ... going by that I think it is facing west toward the roller-rink Krispy Kreme location

I could be wrong

The lot was a lot. It wasn't huge.

I don't know how big it was, but that portends something more.

what is known to have been there at the time that i keep mentioning is Grassmere/the Dunn property. I drove down Nolensville Rd when it was there and it just looked like a bunch of trees. It was 200 acres. The lot is just nothing like that big.

It possibly was no bigger than it is now. Because of the street number. It was just full of weeds and whatever.

Since only one publication called it 'heavily wooded' and everyone else just mentioned the weeds, I'd take that into account.

you couldn't miss that Dunn property. It is the zoo now. they kept what structures were there.. house, and stables. then they added a zoo.

originally it was 384 acres. i don't know when it shrank to 200.

 

[December]

well, looking at it... maybe Coleman Park, too. It seems too big for that.

The map shows the zoo down around Harding Place which maybe the entrance is there now? but, it is close enough to Thompson Lane (or was) that it was just weirdly there with all of those more developed things.

I cannot describe how strange this was. but, at the time I lived in Nashville, the Dunn sisters were dead and the city owned the land and were trying to figure out what to do. since it was given to the city with the understanding that it become a zoo or wildlife park.

during 1969, i do not know what it would have looked like from the road besides the trees. back then someone lived there so they would need to be able to come and go. this is why i wonder if some kind of backway into the place existed then.

other things were other subdivisions. elysian fields shopping center was in front of some houses.

 

[December]

http://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/20639631

here is a photo of the stables at Grassmere. they have been there for a long time. 1810 maybe? but they were there in 1969.

i know it seems counterintuitive, but the zoo actually tamed down that property. it was mostly undeveloped. so, it looked wilder before the zoo than after.

 

[nola]

Further to the empty lot being a "heavily wooded area" .... would that not be all those trees in the upper right hand of the 1960's picture ??

Here is what I go by .... I believe the 1960's picture is taken from Thompson Lane at Nolensville Pike .... and going by the angle of Nolensville Pike it would mean that the Krispy Kreme is farther ahead (west) a bit up the hill

Maybe I got that wrong .... my brains are tired .... too many tabs open ...

I include some modern day pics and maps to add to the confusion

If I have gotten anything wrong it is the direction of the 1960's picture ... but like I said look at the angle of Nolensville Pike as it crosses Thompson Lane ... going by that I think it is facing west toward the roller-rink Krispy Kreme location

I could be wrong

In your #2 Photo, you can see the Shoney's. Not sure if it was in the same locale in 1969, but most likely it was. Thank you for posting.

 

[December]

http://www.tedbaker.com/productimag...rt-drape-jacket-226241_635114942326131896.jpg

here is what I mean with the coat. see how the sash might give the illusion from behind that she was older than she was.

i don't know if her coat looked like this or not. but some people would call a short style like this a jacket while others would call it coat. (and since in the banner article whomever saw it only saw it wadded on the ground, not being worn)

anyway, that would open the door agewise if he approached her from behind and didn't see her from the front until he'd attacked her. she didn't really look older than her age though.

but, it could be a pedo who wanted a kid in the first place.

 

[December]

In your #2 Photo, you can see the Shoney's. Not sure if it was in the same locale in 1969, but most likely it was. Thank you for posting.

here is the weird thing with shoney's...

they had, at one point, car hop restaurants. so, you can imagine teens there. i am pretty sure they closed all of those by the 70s (maybe a little earlier?)

then they had family restaurants. all ages ate there, obviously. that is a photo of a family style restaurant.

idk if it is the same location or not.

after they swapped from being a car hop restaurant to a family restaurant, it isn't really fast food. although they do have some of the same menu items, you have to go sit down and order it.

eta
i do not remember the car hop shoney's and didn't know until recently there ever was such a thing. (shrug)