Found Safe TN - Mary Catherine Elizabeth Thomas, 15, Maury County, 13 March 2017 #11

[flourish]

. I do however not think this type of kidnapping is on the same level as a 3 yr old being taken by a stranger from their front yard and sexually molested/murdered. BIG difference in my opinion.
At what age is a 'child' going to be held responsible for their own actions? 10? 12? 15? 18? 21? If your 13 yr old neighbor murdered your 9 year old, does he get a pass because his parents are horrible people? If a 16 yr old is stealing alcohol from the neighborhood store and drinking it with friends on weekends, is she 'allowed' because her parents are drunks, so its not her fault? LE is starting to charge 13 yr olds as adults in some criminal cases. BIG hot topic there. The stupid viral ' I cashyou ousside, how bat da' teen....... Not responsible for her attitude because?????

Where is the line drawn? If 15 is not responsible AT ALL for their actions, then they should never be out of their parents sight. No school dances, no jobs, no dating, etc. They are not mature enough to know right from wrong?

Then it can be stretched further. Girls mature more quickly than boys. So a girl is responsible enough at 21 to make decisions, but males have to wait til they are 25 to do anything without permission? Who judges when they are ready?

Yes, i'm going to extremes. I'm not trying to change anyones mind on ET. TC most definitely is WRONG, and CRIMINAL because he acted on a situation he should have NEVER even put himself into. ET was told not to do things, she did them anyway. Why, BECAUSE SHE IS 15. and 15 year olds think they know as much as adults. Its only when you are older that you can look back at yourself and say... WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING.

She has had a very rough life and most likely WAS looking for ANYTHING she could grasp onto. I think he sucked her in with the religious aspect, taking her to church with them... BAD MOVE. But it looked ok at the time because his wife was there, he took others, maybe there were friends of hers at that church, WE DON"T KNOW.

They need to be found, she needs MASSIVE amounts of therapy, support and a MUCH more stable environment, and i'm going to go out on a limb and say she needs it AWAY from family. She was unhappy, even in her dads house, and no one noticed this going on thru her SM.... so either it wasn't being supervised, or it didn't jump out to anyone in particular that this girl was headed down a dangerous road. She could have just run away and been a statistic on the streets somewhere. Then we wouldn't be talking about her as much.... and i'm glad it DIDN"T happen that way, because there is a MUCH better chance of finding her now.

This is not black and white. Its shades and shades and shades and until she if found and HER mindset known, its going to be hard to help her.

Its not about him at this point. He'll end up in jail, as he should. HE should have known better, even if he THINKS he had good intentions at one time. HE CAN be blamed for this and SHOULD take the responsibility for ALL of it. And again, when caught, i'll be very curious if he 'mans up' (which i doubt) and admits he knew better and to blame him.

<modsnip> But please, lay it out for me about WHO/WHEN we can decide how to determine responsibility age.

<modsnip>. However, you do realize the answer is 18. Generally, 18 is the "magic age" of being responsible. Brains don't finish developing until a few years later (25ish).

And perhaps that's why so many teenagers are deemed "runaways" when they aren't--because people think of it as being on a "different level." I don't. But we can certainly disagree.

 

[Bently]

Now I'm going to laugh out loud. "Scroll and roll" is toooo haarrddd! <snipped>

:blushing:

I have been here for some time, and thought roll and scroll had to do with using your mouse on your computer. I then noticed that Tricia just says scroll, not roll and scroll.

I just google imaged and learned that the "roll" part of that saying is analogous to rolling your eyes.

Subtleties that I have missed for years!

carry on.....

 

[Quisp]

I don't know why it happens but it does happen. See Patty Hearst. Look up Stockholm Syndrome.

"Stockholm Syndrome" is bunk! It is not a real Clinical Disorder.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

<modsnip>

I do however not think this type of kidnapping is on the same level as a 3 yr old being taken by a stranger from their front yard and sexually molested/murdered. BIG difference in my opinion.
At what age is a 'child' going to be held responsible for their own actions? 10? 12? 15? 18? 21? If your 13 yr old neighbor murdered your 9 year old, does he get a pass because his parents are horrible people? If a 16 yr old is stealing alcohol from the neighborhood store and drinking it with friends on weekends, is she 'allowed' because her parents are drunks, so its not her fault? LE is starting to charge 13 yr olds as adults in some criminal cases. BIG hot topic there. The stupid viral ' I cashyou ousside, how bat da' teen....... Not responsible for her attitude because?????

Where is the line drawn? If 15 is not responsible AT ALL for their actions, then they should never be out of their parents sight. No school dances, no jobs, no dating, etc. They are not mature enough to know right from wrong?

Then it can be stretched further. Girls mature more quickly than boys. So a girl is responsible enough at 21 to make decisions, but males have to wait til they are 25 to do anything without permission? Who judges when they are ready?

Yes, i'm going to extremes. I'm not trying to change anyones mind on ET. TC most definitely is WRONG, and CRIMINAL because he acted on a situation he should have NEVER even put himself into. ET was told not to do things, she did them anyway. Why, BECAUSE SHE IS 15. and 15 year olds think they know as much as adults. Its only when you are older that you can look back at yourself and say... WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING.

She has had a very rough life and most likely WAS looking for ANYTHING she could grasp onto. I think he sucked her in with the religious aspect, taking her to church with them... BAD MOVE. But it looked ok at the time because his wife was there, he took others, maybe there were friends of hers at that church, WE DON"T KNOW.

They need to be found, she needs MASSIVE amounts of therapy, support and a MUCH more stable environment, and i'm going to go out on a limb and say she needs it AWAY from family. She was unhappy, even in her dads house, and no one noticed this going on thru her SM.... so either it wasn't being supervised, or it didn't jump out to anyone in particular that this girl was headed down a dangerous road. She could have just run away and been a statistic on the streets somewhere. Then we wouldn't be talking about her as much.... and i'm glad it DIDN"T happen that way, because there is a MUCH better chance of finding her now.

This is not black and white. Its shades and shades and shades and until she if found and HER mindset known, its going to be hard to help her.

Its not about him at this point. He'll end up in jail, as he should. HE should have known better, even if he THINKS he had good intentions at one time. HE CAN be blamed for this and SHOULD take the responsibility for ALL of it. And again, when caught, i'll be very curious if he 'mans up' (which i doubt) and admits he knew better and to blame him.

<mod snip> But please, lay it out for me about WHO/WHEN we can decide how to determine responsibility age

well, the courts and most people/parents say 15 IS NOT even close to being mature enough to take off with a man (who btw doesn't love her) and is 30 years+ her senior. There are way better options for a 15 year old. She still needs parental guidance, schooling, without a doubt. Not my opinion. Fact.

 

[Kakidoll]

I'm not going to flame you. However, you do realize the answer is 18. Generally, 18 is the "magic age" of being responsible. Brains don't finish developing until a few years later (25ish).

And perhaps that's why so many teenagers are deemed "runaways" when they aren't--because people think of it as being on a "different level." I don't. But we can certainly disagree.

Thank you. And i do understand the '18' legal definition... My daughter was more 'responsible' at 18 than she was at 23...... structured, in grad school, etc...... Ah that frontal lobe. And i know 35 year old 'men' that still act like they are 16. Some just NEVER grow up

 

[Kakidoll]

well, the courts and most people/parents say 15 IS NOT even close to being mature enough to take off with a man (who btw doesn't love her) and is 30 years+ her senior. There are way better options for a 15 year old. She still needs parental guidance, schooling, without a doubt. Not my opinion. Fact.

And i absolutely agree with that statement.

 

[Kapua]

There are grown women who marry narcissists and abusers.

If ET was 18 or 26, I would still care about her well-being and wish for her to be found, although legally, TC would not be guilty of any crime.

And that is all I will have to say on this topic.

 

[Vedder]

Ok, flame away...... But please, lay it out for me about WHO/WHEN we can decide how to determine responsibility age.

RSBM
No flames. The difference, IMO, lies in what is determined legally responsible. Not all 15 year old kids have the same maturity level. Some are deemed responsible enough by their parents to have a key to the house, to babysit, etc. Others not so much. There are levels of responsibility. But when it comes to the courts, a 15 year old is not deemed responsible to make life decisions as to leave their parental home with a non-family member, against their parent's wishes. I know 18 year old kids who aren't "responsible" enough to make certain life decisions due to maturity level, but the law says they can.

 

[pegs]

Oh yuck, hadn't even thought about people he may have "helping" them. Could be creeps he met on the internet. OR!!! She's been previously homeschooled, there are networks of places that you can travel to for educational reasons, could he be using that? Like colleges and universities will allow people to stay in dorms for a really low price while you do an educational trip. Any other homeschoolers here know about these things?

Retired homeschooler here. I would be VERY surprised if he would approach any homeschooling group. Generally, homeschoolers are leery of newcomers until they get to know them. In that process of getting to know them, homeschoolers are not at all shy about asking a lot of questions. Then they compare and believe me, LE couldn't get lucky enough to have TC try and approach a homeschool group. I think you may be inquiring about youth hostels for school or students traveling. That is a possibility but again, TC is a grampa and a very young girl and gramps in a hostel would set off red flags. Many of the travelers are around college age. And many of the hostels are fairly open lodgings so I don't see TC relating to that either.

 

[abeaman02]

Lets bring her home today

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[Kakidoll]

RSBM
No flames. The difference, IMO, lies in what is determined legally responsible. Not all 15 year old kids have the same maturity level. Some are deemed responsible enough by their parents to have a key to the house, to babysit, etc. Others not so much. There are levels of responsibility. But when it comes to the courts, a 15 year old is not deemed responsible to make life decisions as to leave their parental home with a non-family member, against their parent's wishes. I know 18 year old kids who aren't "responsible" enough to make certain life decisions due to maturity level, but the law says they can.

Thank you for your reply. And that is part of why i'm asking. We are going by the courts.... But if this same court is charging a 15 year old as an adult for a MURDER, how can they say she is not responsible for leaving on her own. It seems to be a 'pick and choose' system..... which I suppose is a whole other debate in itself.


Tennessee

Lower Age: None specified

Upper Age: 17


Discretionary Waiver Tenn. Code Sec. 37-1-134

Following a hearing, a child meeting age/offense criteria may be transferred to adult criminal court if the juvenile court finds that there are reasonable grounds to believe that (1) the child committed the offense alleged, (2) the child is not committable to a mental institution, and (3) the interests of the community require that the child be placed under legal restraint. The law lists various factors to be considered by the court in making these findings. Generally, the juvenile court's decision is not immediately appealable; however, if a nonlawyer makes the decision to transfer the case, a special provision entitles the child to an immediate de novo rehearing at the criminal court level. (See Reverse Waiver.)


Offense Category Minimum Age Offense Detail

Any Criminal 16 Any criminal offense.

Murder None specified First or second degree murder or the attempt.

Person None specified Rape, aggravated rape, aggravated or especially aggravated robbery, kidnapping, aggravated or especially aggravated kidnapping, or the attempt to commit any of these offenses.

 

[bluesneakers]

I've always thought he may have several thousand more dollars. If he had enough foresight and went to the trouble to take out a loan, then I am guessing other ways of earning money (cashing out retirement, savings, selling things) occurred to him as well. Imho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How long would it take LE to find out if he'd taken out cash advances on his credit cards? Would they tell us if he had an extra 1k they didn't know about first? He might have cards his wife didn't know about. And they might be through a different creditor.

I'm just trying to think of other ways he'd get money.

 

[MsMtOlympus]

"Stockholm Syndrome" is bunk! It is not a real Clinical Disorder.

That is factually accurate, per the following article which states, "There are no widely accepted diagnostic criteria to identify the syndrome, which is also known as terror-bonding or trauma bonding and it is not in either of the two main psychiatric manuals, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD)."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22447726

However, I don't think there can be any argument against the fact that people in hostage situations (whether an abusive domestic situation, a kidnapping, or any forced relationship where manipulation and intimidation are key factors) don't always react the way we assume they should. Elizabeth Smart has been mentioned many times over as an example but there are countless other victims of similar crimes whose names we don't know with identical behavior patterns while in captivity. This is a complex subject and while it is true that the term "Stockholm Syndrome" is up for debate, I strongly believe that it is common that victims are susceptible to full submission to their captors, even in situations where they could logically (to an outsider) escape the situation. Whatever you want to call it, it is real, it is frightening, and it can only be truly understood by those who experienced it, IMO.

 

[KKearns]

Would TC feel that it is "below" him to work as a farm hand or day laborer? I agree that he has to be getting money from somewhere but I just can't see him taking an odd job. I still think someone is assisting him. MOO.

I thought about this last week. I could see him thinking it was beneath him but could see him having Elizabeth do it.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[Milenalee]

Thank you for your reply. And that is part of why i'm asking. We are going by the courts.... But if this same court is charging a 15 year old as an adult for a MURDER, how can they say she is not responsible for leaving on her own. It seems to be a 'pick and choose' system..... which I suppose is a whole other debate in itself.


Tennessee

Lower Age:None specified

Upper Age:17


Discretionary WaiverTenn. Code Sec. 37-1-134

Following a hearing, a child meeting age/offense criteria may be transferred to adult criminal court if the juvenile court finds that there are reasonable grounds to believe that (1) the child committed the offense alleged, (2) the child is not committable to a mental institution, and (3) the interests of the community require that the child be placed under legal restraint. The law lists various factors to be considered by the court in making these findings. Generally, the juvenile court's decision is not immediately appealable; however, if a nonlawyer makes the decision to transfer the case, a special provision entitles the child to an immediate de novo rehearing at the criminal court level. (See Reverse Waiver.)


Offense CategoryMinimum AgeOffense Detail

Any Criminal16Any criminal offense.

MurderNone specifiedFirst or second degree murder or the attempt.

PersonNone specifiedRape, aggravated rape, aggravated or especially aggravated robbery, kidnapping, aggravated or especially aggravated kidnapping, or the attempt to commit any of these offenses.

A person who murders as a child is likely to do it as an adult. A dog, a child, an adult, anyone who kills humans obviously has to be stopped somehow. What age we stop criminals has little to do with how we protect victims. It's comparing unrelated situations. A victim is not committing a crime.

At what age are you not a victim of a pervert like Tad? Maybe you could be 18 and still a victim, but obviously if you are under 18 you clearly are more vulnerable. And another adult has the job of protecting you. Tad stole her from her father.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[xmsmadex]

Thank you for your reply. And that is part of why i'm asking. We are going by the courts.... But if this same court is charging a 15 year old as an adult for a MURDER, how can they say she is not responsible for leaving on her own. It seems to be a 'pick and choose' system..... which I suppose is a whole other debate in itself.


Tennessee

Lower Age:None specified

Upper Age:17


Discretionary WaiverTenn. Code Sec. 37-1-134

Following a hearing, a child meeting age/offense criteria may be transferred to adult criminal court if the juvenile court finds that there are reasonable grounds to believe that (1) the child committed the offense alleged, (2) the child is not committable to a mental institution, and (3) the interests of the community require that the child be placed under legal restraint. The law lists various factors to be considered by the court in making these findings. Generally, the juvenile court's decision is not immediately appealable; however, if a nonlawyer makes the decision to transfer the case, a special provision entitles the child to an immediate de novo rehearing at the criminal court level. (See Reverse Waiver.)


Offense CategoryMinimum AgeOffense Detail

Any Criminal16Any criminal offense.

MurderNone specifiedFirst or second degree murder or the attempt.

PersonNone specifiedRape, aggravated rape, aggravated or especially aggravated robbery, kidnapping, aggravated or especially aggravated kidnapping, or the attempt to commit any of these offenses.

There is a huge difference between a 15 year old taking a life than a 15 year old running away with someone she thinks shes in love with, no matter how old he is. Im not sure how you can even compare the two. So if we drop that comparison and start holding a 15 year old responsible for running away with an older man then we're on the topic of consent not legality.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[bluesneakers]

I thought about this last week. I could see him thinking it was beneath him but could see him having Elizabeth do it.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

If he managed to get her fake ID she could get a job with a different name and work anywhere. I don't see him as together enough to get her a fake ID but I believe he could steal someone's.

 

[Kapua]

I thought about this last week. I could see him thinking it was beneath him but could see him having Elizabeth do it.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

I am hoping that we find them before they even come close to running out of money - today, tomorrow, end of the week at the latest.

Both of these individuals have common names. I'm not sure if they were to take legit jobs if their SSNs would trigger an investigation, but I assume this would be the case. But even if they did, it might take a while before anyone followed up. Total speculation on my part. :cow:

 

[KKearns]

Not sure TC has a traditional retirement since he has hopped around jobs so much. He could have rolled those over into CD's or some individual account since he was self employed for a bit before teaching.

If he did that, it would be very easy to get that money out a while back and no one know right now.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[staunchcharacter]

I have updated the Instagram metadata reports by adding a True / False flag indicating if the original caption was edited, as well as putting the times into local Central time and correcting when appropriate for Daylight Savings.

Elizabeth Thomas Instagram posts date, caption edited flag, and caption text
https://pastebin.com/sBfFfDfX

Tad Cummins Instagram posts date, caption edited flag, and caption text
https://pastebin.com/sBfFfDfX

Also I created a 2nd version of the reports to note which users 'liked' the posts as of March 19th, 2017 when I downloaded the metadata.

Elizabeth Thomas Instagram posts liked by
https://pastebin.com/DfA8tHLR

Tad Cummins Instagram posts liked by
https://pastebin.com/sBfFfDfX

Please let me know if you have any questions, or if you see this as a violation of rules here.

I think the links may be wrong?